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#1 Omega

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 02:44 PM

I just had a conversation, and I'm not sure how I feel about it. A friend of mine posted this:
http://www.nationalr...-leaks-violence

My reply
As soon as the article suggested that investigating the President is tantamount to overturning the results of an election, it showed itself to be unprincipled.

For one, it's just a lie: impeaching and removing Trump would leave President Pence, exactly consistent with the results of the election.

For two, if a President does commit crimes, or puts the country in danger due to overwhelming incompetence or inability to perform the job, it is our obligation to remove him. That's why there are constitutional means for doing so. Nixon was also a duly elected President. As was Clinton. Impeachment and the 25th amendment are not decorative. Our duty is to the nation and its constitution, not to the President. To say those means should not be exercised is, itself, to reject constitutional law.

Third, everything said about the electoral college is lies. The entire point of the electoral college was to separate the selection of the President from the popular vote. Saying that the electors voting their conscience violates the spirit of the constitution is an outright damned lie.

Fourth, complaining about the Democrats blocking Trump appointments is hysterical, given as the Republicans left a seat on the USSC unfilled for over a year just because they didn't like Obama. And even if you ignore the hypocrisy, Trump hasn't even appointed candidates for 80% of the offices he should have. Blaming the holes in the executive branch on the Democrats is a lie.

Fifth, describing Trump's assets as in a trust is deceptive. He knows exactly what the trust owns, he can demand income from it at any time, and discusses its operations with his sons who run it. There is no difference at all between a year ago and now, which means any foreign payments he may be receiving (which we can't know about because he keeps lying about releasing his financial info) are direct conflicts of interest at best, and treasonous bribes at worst.

Yes, there are lies being told by liberals. Yes, there are bad things being done by the left. Spreading more lies to counter them makes things worse! Our commitment has to be to the truth, above political affiliation. This author is part of the problem. Spreading articles like this makes you also part of the problem.

I felt good about that.

Then someone I don't know replied, and this conversation happened. I apologize for the formatting. I've removed his name, so comments marked Stephen Collings are me, unmarked are him.

What about Obowmore who should not even been President? Why would he seal his records as soon as he was elected? Etc.


Stephen Collings Obama won the election. Twice. If you don't think he should be President after clearly winning two elections by substantial margins, I suggest you move to Iran. You might find it more to your liking. This is America. If you think he should have been removed after winning, you're welcome to try to provide evidence of his committing a crime. The GOP controlling Congress never could.


Stephen Collings  And if your childish Obama name is a reference to what I think it is, you might enjoy this picture...


Like you out of control Leftists? Please.


Stephen Collings  You have no idea who I am. You just declared me a leftist because I did nothing but point out a series of lies. Does pointing out lies make me a leftist? Is there no room for truth in the right any more?


I have been to Muslim countries serving my Country. What have you done besides try to tear it down?


You said Trump and then President Pence. Big clues.


Stephen Collings  So I'm not allowed to defend against lies, because you served in the military. Your argument is nonsense. Try again? Also interesting that you think pointing out lies is tearing down the country. My use of titles says nothing about my political affiliations. You really are assuming you understand my politics when I've done nothing but point out lies.


Why are you hiding your face Facebook warrior?


Stephen Collings  Why are you defending lies and liars?


I am only pointing out what I see.


Stephen Collings  No, you're not. You're defending lies and liars.


Typical Liberal.


Stephen Collings  Again, all I've done is point out lies. Why does that make me a liberal? Am I not allowed to be a conservative if I point out other conservatives lying? Is part of being a conservative not a commitment to truth? Which is more important: the truth, or your team?


http://www.theblaze....


Obama’s College Classmate: ‘The Obama Scandal Is at Columbia’

I am President Obama’s classmate …

THEBLAZE.COM


I speak the truth.


You know you are a Liberal. You aren't fooling me.


http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/160002


Obama's First Executive Order Strikes a Blow for Transparency…

In a world where political symbols matter,…

HUFFINGTONPOST.COM


Stephen Collings  You're really trying to avoid answering this question: why are you defending liars and lies?


Typical Liberal. Can't defend his stance with facts so he projects his flaws on others. I am done talking to you. I hope you find Jesus Christ and then you will know what truth is. Peace out and Godspeed.


Stephen Collings I never had any need to defend my stance, because you never attacked it. You attacked what you decided was my stance without evidence. I hope you find Jesus too. Because followers of Jesus do not defend lies and liars.


What lies am I defending? I was just pointing out you were a Liberal.


Stephen Collings  ...which was itself a lie, and one you only told because you thought it gave you license to ignore what I was saying. I pointed out a bunch of lies, and your immediate response was "what about Obama?" That's defending the lies.


Dude, you are a Liberal.


Stephen Collings  I pointed out lies, you defended them, and then you decided I must be a liberal, based on nothing but the fact that I pointed out lies. How is that not an accurate summary of this conversation?


Case closed Liberal.


Stephen Collings  So opposing hypocrisy is also a trait conservatives aren't allowed to have? You have a really unfortunate, morally void view of conservatism.


I am done talking to you. Liberals lie, cheat, steal, riot, and you blame others for it.


Stephen Collings  Okay. I hope you think about why you've spent all this time defending lies today, and why you think it's a liberal trait to point out lies and oppose hypocrisy.


Well, I hope you find Jesus Christ. He is not in your life or you would know that you are the one believing lies. Peace out and Godspeed.


Stephen Collings  So Jesus tells you that the lies I'm pointing out are, in fact, not lies? I would like to hear more about this new revelation from Christ that you are claiming.


You went to a Christian College and still don't know him. How did that happen? Inquiring minds want to know.


Stephen Collings  Why don't you take this opportunity to tell me about Jesus, and how your actions in this conversation are consistent with his teachings.


Haha. You don't like it when you are not in control I see.


Stephen Collings  Seeing as you didn't respond to my question, I take it Christ does not want you spreading his teachings, then?


Of course, but you won't listen. You think you are your own God. The Holy Bible says that if you don't believe in God that you are a fool.


Stephen Collings  So Christ tells you to not to preach Christ to those who ask to hear it?


Well, what do you want to know?


Stephen Collings  What I asked. What did Jesus teach, specifically those parts relevant to your statements in this conversation?


I am no Bible scholar. How about you do your own research and look it up in the Holy Bible?


Stephen Collings  I'm not asking you to be a scholar. You clearly have beliefs about Jesus that are relevant to your statements in this conversation. I'd like to know what those beliefs are.


My beliefs are that you have misled people, because you don't do your own research to find the real truth in Jesus Christ. Just guessing from talking to you now.


Stephen Collings  to be clear, you're saying your beliefs about Jesus are that I don't know the truth about Jesus. I'm asking you to tell me what that truth is that you think I'm missing.


That only in Jesus Christ will your eyes be opened to the truth.


Stephen Collings  So the truth about Jesus is that Jesus is the truth? Seems circular, to the point that I'm not sure how it can support any external statements like you've made. Is there not more to the truth of Jesus than that?


Of course, but that would require you to open your closed mind. Which as I said about the quote I gave you from the Holy Bible.


Stephen Collings  I'm telling you that my mind is open, and asking you to offer content to insert into it. Are we back to you saying you won't explain your beliefs to someone who asks?


I am not Jesus Christ. You would have to pray and talk to him. He is the way, the truth and the life.


Stephen Collings  I understand that you will not explain your beliefs or how they are related to the statements you have made. I'm sorry to hear that. You seem to be very confident in those beliefs and their relationship to your statements.


I am. Tell me why he isn't in your life?


Stephen Collings  Tell me what I've done that is inconsistent with your understanding of how a person with Jesus in his life would do.


First of all murdering God's children is an abomination. We have around 370,000,000 souls lost to abortion. And then you wonder why we don't have enough taxpayers?? Does that not sound foolish to you?


Stephen Collings  Who have I murdered or advocated murdering?


Liberals support abortion.


Stephen Collings  So to be clear, you're saying that I've said something in this conversation only a liberal would say, and that all liberals everywhere support murdering babies. Therefore I must support murdering babies. Am I following correctly?


Are you saying you don't support abortion?


Stephen Collings  I'm not saying anything one way or the other. I'm just trying to understand your beliefs. I'm not sure how you got from what I said to "this guy murders babies and knows nothing about Jesus"


I thought so.


Stephen Collings  Did you?


Yes sir. At least you aren't in your broken loop of thought now. Thank you Jesus.


Stephen Collings  I'm having difficulty parsing your comments. Would you care to elaborate on what, exactly, I said that made you decide I must be a baby-murderer?


Abortion is murder of an innocent child. That is an abomination to the Lord.


Stephen Collings  I'm in no way disputing that. But that doesn't answer my question. Why, from what I said, did you decide I supported abortion?


Okay. I apologise if I am wrong.


Stephen Collings  No, seriously, I'm not offended; your opinions of me have no emotional impact on me. I'm genuinely trying to figure out how you got from A to B to C.


Glad to hear that.


Stephen Collings  I'd still like to understand that, if you'd care to explain.


You haven't answered my questions yet. lol. Would a Professor do his students homework for them or would they get an F for not doing it?


Stephen Collings  I'm asking what your reasoning process was. Is there some way I can figure that out without asking you?


For what? It is very simple. You intentionally left out that President Trump was not our President and that our Vice-president Pence was.


Stephen Collings  That alone takes you to be being a baby-murderer? Doesn't that seem pretty tenuous?


I never said that. Don't twist my words. I said Liberals support abortion.


Stephen Collings  Sorry, I thought you were answering my question.


Stephen Collings  My question was, how did you get from what I said, to assuming I don't know Jesus. You started talking about how all liberals support murdering babies, so I assumed that was related in some way.


If you knew Jesus Christ then you would know I am speaking the truth to you. You kept saying I was defending lies when all I was doing was pointing out what I saw from you.


Stephen Collings  The thing is, you're not actually saying much, except that I'm a liberal and don't know Jesus. And I keep asking what you saw that made you believe that.


Okay, you would also know that America is being Judged by God right now. We had to go through religious oppression with o. We now have a Godly man and Satan and his minions are going crazy about it, because they had cheated to win but God prevailed.


Stephen Collings  An interesting position, to be sure. But I'm not sure how that addresses my question.


Stephen Collings Perhaps you could also elaborate on what particular behavior you've seen from Trump that you judge to be Godly. Perhaps that would help me understand what actions you judge to be of God or not of God.


I won't answer any more until you answer some of mine. Just to keep it fair.


Stephen Collings Does Jesus want you to spread your beliefs about him only in exchange for other information?


I won't be your thesis paper. The things I told you are true. You dodge questions so you can learn how I think, but you don't share yours.


Stephen Collings  What things you told me? That I'm a liberal and don't know Jesus?


Haha. I am just as smart as you. You might have education on your collar, but I have seen more in life. Nice try buddy. Haha


Stephen Collings I'm not disputing that. I'm just trying to understand. What did I do that make you decide I was a liberal and didn't know Jesus? I've asked that a dozen times now and you've never answered.


Do you not read and understand the English language? I have just told you. Lord have mercy.


Stephen Collings It's quite possible I'm having difficulty. Could you say it again, so I'm clear?


I found this... instructive. Though I'm not sure in what way. Thus, I'm here.

I'm genuinely not even sure I feel good about having had this conversation. Any thoughts or comments?

#2 sierraleone

sierraleone

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 05:28 PM

View PostOmega, on 20 June 2017 - 02:44 PM, said:

I just had a conversation, and I'm not sure how I feel about it. A friend of mine posted this:
http://www.nationalr...-leaks-violence

Gawd, just the choice of some words in that article….

Quote

An effective way to emasculate Trump was to demand recusals,

If requiring checks and balances is emasculation, emasculate away! :D

There are others, but I won't waste my time sharing them all.

.
.

As for you conversation with stranger dude (?)… I think you should tell him a person who really is liberal says you (Omega) have the patience of a saint ;)

Everything can be instructive, instructive is just that something carries a lesson, and everything carries truth (even 'strange' behaviour, even lies. You learn something about the narrative others construct, about people's methods of navigating the world we live in).

The question is, what did you learn from this? (and/or, what did the other guy learn from this?). One could also examine what your, and/or he, wanted to learn (or assert, more so, I think in his case).

I am going to ignore how the conversation makes me want to roll my eyes and seem to confirm some of my worse biases about Trump supporters right now ;)


Things that struck me reading your conversation

- You were searching for truth and clarification, even if it wasn't your truth (you refused to be waylaid by the conjecture he was throwing out there).

- He doesn't just use ad hominem attacks, he used ad hominem defensively almost (talking up his military service and his religion, which, apparently by default, is meant to be a smear to those who aren't/haven't served in the Military, and aren't Christian?).

- When he wasn't treating the conversation as a soap-box, or as you or your inquiry as beneath his consideration… It felt like he was treating the conversation as transactional. That struck me as odd. The truth is not transactional. I mean the truth should be shared, but it isn't transactional. It isn't to be traded or substituted for something else (or at least shouldn't be! :D ).
You, from the beginning, had tried to make it a conversation about truth, specially in relation to the article you were responding to.
But when you asked a simple question, with presumably simple answers, he at times acted as those were not worth answering unless you answered his first.
Which, if you did, he would have probably just used to get far afield of the original topic (you are much better on staying on task them I imagine I would be in those circumstances I'd imagine, good job :) ), and your search for the truth you enquired of him would likely never get answered anyways.
Effectively treating the journey (or any effort) to reveal truth as tit-for-tat seems defiling in a way I have a hard time describing.
And he seemed at times to indicate he thought you were treating it as tit-for-tat, or a game where you wouldn't share your marbles or something, like a sort of power-play. (if so, I think he was projecting :p )


So, yeah, I am not surprised you may not be feeling good about having had this conversation. As far as I can tell, from my subjective position, you have just learned some unpleasant truths about this man's worldview and how he approaches different world views, which would leave one wondering, and worried, how common or uncommon is his worldview/traits. That maybe my confirmation biases working overtime though ;)
And, he, this stranger, appears to have learned nothing, other than you won't play his "game" in a way he'd find, I don't know, "reasonable" "fun", what is his motive here? Was he actually searching for answers, or just answering some hedonistic need very different from what yours might be?

So who has ended up any more enlightened, as one would want in a search for answers? Of course, the truth about human nature is not always enlightening in a good uplifting way, so it happens.

Edited by sierraleone, 20 June 2017 - 06:51 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#3 yadda yadda

yadda yadda
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Posted 20 June 2017 - 06:43 PM

It would be hard for me to feel good about such a lengthy conversation if I like you was trying, fruitlessly, to stir even the vestiges of logical discourse with your partner to conversation, but failing to elicit any glimmer of understanding of the process of thinking from your correspondent coinciding with the realization that your investment of time and underlying good will, paralleling the path of Jesus has been completely wasted and unvalued by one who knows not what he has done.

Edited by yadda yadda, 20 June 2017 - 06:44 PM.


#4 Omega

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 09:15 PM

I've seen people similar to this before. I point out that, no, hurting poor people is not something Christ would do. And they just say "Oh, persecute me all you like, I'll take up my cross and see you in HELL! (from Heaven)"

As a Christian, I find it... distressing unlike anything else I have encountered. I hear a few sermons a year about how we can worship false gods of money and success and pleasure. But these are the real false gods: the ones we make up in our heads, that agree with everything we have already decided is right, and to which we assign the unquestionable authority of Christ.

Using the Bible as your roadmap doesn't work very well when you've already decided on your intellectual destination.

#5 QueenTiye

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 04:31 PM

I would like  to suggest in future that you stop chasing persons like this down rabbit holes and put forward your own position. Take a stand based on the BIBLE.

For instance, Jesus said that Satan is the father of lies. John 8:44

Jesus himself identified with the homeless. Matthew 8:20

Jesus said it is hard for the rich to enter heaven. Matthew 19:24

And, Jesus advocated shaking the dust from your feet. Matthew 10:14

QT

Een Draght Mackt Maght


#6 Omega

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 09:21 PM

^I guess I was trying something new. I think we've all read about how being presented with contrary evidence makes people become more sure, not less. The internet version of turning the other cheek?

#7 yadda yadda

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 10:20 PM

I jus want you to know Stephen that though many of us feel frustration and perhaps contempt for those who hypocritically proselytize hatred, bigotry, and sheer ignorance under the guise and banner of Christianity, that most understand there exist many sincere, thoughtful, and open minded followers of Christ's teachings. And I've always found your rationality and graceful nature affirming of the Christian faith in the face of seeing so many who are lost, divorced from, and blinded to the foundations of the religion.

Edited by yadda yadda, 21 June 2017 - 10:21 PM.


#8 Omega

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Posted 21 June 2017 - 10:33 PM

^Thank you. :)


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