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Current Public Discourse & Civility


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#1 sierraleone

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 04:31 PM

Just recently:

- Kathy Griffin take a photo of herself holding a severed bloody head that looks like Trump.
- Trump 'punches down' and bullies two reporters/tv hosts (and worse, they reported) over their not-glowing coverage of him.
- NRA released the ad I linked in another thread.

This, among a background of
- a Bernie supporter shooting at a Republican congressional baseball practice.
- a Republican Senator for Montana body-slamming a reporter.

Then Trump today tweets a clip from his WWE (i.e. staged wrestling) guest appearance in 2007, where he clothes-lined and pummelled the WWE CEO Vince McMan(?), but he replaced Vince's face with the CNN logo...

This is who the electoral college elected... As far as I can tell there are not many Republicans defending him, except those who work in the executive branch. But there isn't strong condemnation of it from the GOP leaders either....

And on-line supporters are making light of it,, heavily stressing the context of WWE fights being fake, "it's a fake fight against fake news"! Or it is a joke. Or parroting the defence that Conway and Huckabee took up last week after Trump's attacks on Mika and Joe of MSNBC's Morning Joe, expecting they will take up the same defence again....

And this is despite this happening maybe a month after a politician literally body slammed a reporter....

I could easily see the Kathy Griffin photo edited with Donald Trump holding up a bloody head with the CNN logo painted on it's face and people saying "Don't take it so literally!" ....

It seems if Trump does attacks a person, if it is not considered Presidential it is being normalized and considered a reasonable response to criticism on his policies, leadership, and accomplishments.....

To be silent is to condone it has been said. But it is also distracting from attention paid to the silent work being done to undermine U.S. institutions and democracy.

Before this could we ever imagine any U.S. President doing these things? (Can we imagine what he reaction would be if this happened during another Presidency?)

It is very apparent Trump doesn't actually care about the office of the Presidency or the U.S. In general, as his behaviour hurts the standing of his office and his country. He only cares about himself and how he feels about himself. The Ven diagram between behaviour that supports the office of the Presidency/the country of the U.S.A. and that which supports the fragile ego and self-esteem of the person Donald J Trump has no overlap.

How can we push back on this though? We can hold ourselves and our allies, and even our opposition, to higher standards. It doesn't mean to be wall flowers. Oppose and debate their ideas and policies, ferociously if needed, but not people. What about if someone is verbally attacking people? Oppose and attack (with words and ideas) their personal attacks.

I hope the people in America can rise to the occasion.

Whatever is done though, It will be very difficult to marginalize the rhetoric of the most powerful person in the world, as long as he is in office. And I don't know yet what it will take for the Republicans to pick country over party and ideology.

Edited by sierraleone, 02 July 2017 - 05:41 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#2 sierraleone

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 05:22 PM

Post fixed :)
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#3 RJDiogenes

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 05:37 PM

He "tweeted" an admission that he is not being presidential-- he is being modern presidential. Which is absolutely true. He is basically a 3D Internet troll. We live in an age of extremism:  The Right Wing is more vile than it's ever been and the Left Wing has abandoned any pretense of liberalism in favor of political correctness-- the result of this is a president with the mind of a child and the conscience of a third-world dictator. President The Donald should have been a sobering experience for everybody, but I guess Facebook prepared society for his coming. Impeachment hearings might be a nice start, though.
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#4 sierraleone

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Posted 03 July 2017 - 04:05 PM

View PostRJDiogenes, on 02 July 2017 - 05:37 PM, said:

He "tweeted" an admission that he is not being presidential-- he is being modern presidential. Which is absolutely true. He is basically a 3D Internet troll.

All internet trolls are 3D… well except the bots ;)

Quote

We live in an age of extremism:  The Right Wing is more vile than it's ever been and the Left Wing has abandoned any pretense of liberalism in favor of political correctness--

I definitely am left leaning, so the far left only worries me when they start looking like the right (like TERFs).
Example: It is one thing when feminists exclaim traditional marriage to be constraining/outdated, and we need to update the institution of marriage for everyone's benefit in modern times, while allowing people to practice traditional marriage roles if they wish….. It is another when radical feminists exclaim marriage as basically glorified prostitution (or slavery) in a form deemed acceptable by society. Heck, I've read the similar things out of MRAs ;)

So, am I just blind in not seeing that the far left does not have nearly as much influence as the far right? Because I tire of false equivalencies, but I do want to be fair in acknowledging and addressing the real problems presented by both sides.


Quote

the result of this is a president with the mind of a child and the conscience of a third-world dictator. President The Donald should have been a sobering experience for everybody, but I guess Facebook prepared society for his coming. Impeachment hearings might be a nice start, though.

This isn't the first time an idiot with little conscience came to power (elected or otherwise), and I think to blame it on any one factor (in this case partisanship?) is short-sighted. At first I was going to say Facebook didn't prepare me for Trump, but re-reading it appears you meant not accepting of Trump, but are implying Facebook had led to the further extremism/division of our society? And/or it contributed to the lack of civility in our public discourse?

Edited by sierraleone, 03 July 2017 - 04:05 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#5 sierraleone

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Posted 03 July 2017 - 04:36 PM

I don't understand the defence people have of Trump clothes-lining and beating up a figure that represents CNN, that it was a a joke….

Um, if someone else did what the President did…. used photo-shop to edit Trump's face onto a figure being beat up….
Would the people saying it is a joke now, when it is CNN being pummelled, still be saying it is a joke and push back against those who say it is not funny, its appalling, and it goes too far????

Edited by sierraleone, 03 July 2017 - 05:02 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#6 RJDiogenes

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Posted 03 July 2017 - 07:44 PM

^^ Anybody else who did a fraction of what Trump does would have been fired a long time ago.

View Postsierraleone, on 03 July 2017 - 04:05 PM, said:

All internet trolls are 3D… well except the bots ;)
We don't usually get to see them that way. Their anonymity is what gives them courage.

Quote

I definitely am left leaning, so the far left only worries me when they start looking like the right
As a liberal, the Left has looked a lot like the Right to me for a long time. A half century ago, the Left promoted liberal principles like peace and love and equality-- they changed the world more than it has ever been changed before by changing minds.  Now the Left-- I call them the nuLeft to go with the alt-Right-- just spreads hatred and divisiveness. Instead of changing minds, they drive impressionable minds to the opposition.  The Right Wing is the enemy of civilization, but the Left Wing gives aid and comfort to the enemy.  Which is worse?

Quote

At first I was going to say Facebook didn't prepare me for Trump, but re-reading it appears you meant not accepting of Trump, but are implying Facebook had led to the further extremism/division of our society? And/or it contributed to the lack of civility in our public discourse?
That's about the size of it. Status is now determined by how extreme one's sputterings are on social media.  :lol:
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#7 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 04 July 2017 - 01:49 AM

I'll give my thoughts about Trump's tweet in one second, I just have to say first: I find it highly ironic, and a tab bit amusing, that CNN which claimed the assassination of Trump in the Shakesphere in the park was a "masterpiece", and had no problems whatsoever with Kathy Griffin and Trump's severed head, saying it was "Artistic expression", now apparently have a problem with artistic expression and violence. Now they are claiming Trump has threatened them. CNN can't have it both ways here.

Now, my thoughts about Trump's tweet.

My first viewing of the tweet, I'll admit I found it amusing. Not outright funny, but mildly amusing. But at the same time something just didn't feel right, something was off to me. At first I wasn't sure what it was. The tweet itself seemed alright, nothing all that bad or funny, just mildly entertaining. But yet something just didn't feel right. Then it dawned on me...The tweet, in question, is something I would post, or my friends, or just about any average person might post. It is not something I would expect from the President. I was watching news earlier (yes, Foxnews) and one on the commentators said something that stuck with me. They said: "All of the previous Presidents, all 44 of them, were able to seperate the man from the Office. Trump, so far, hasn't managed to do this. Which is why we get tweets, which for the most part, aren't something average people would consider "Presidential".

Having said that, at least for me, the choice was still either vote for Trump or Hillary might be President. And Hillary as President would have been far far worse for the country, IMO.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

The last republican leaning independent on this message board. All others have been silenced and driven off, or outright banned. Only ONE remains. I guess HighLander had it right all along....In the end, there can be only ONE.

#8 sierraleone

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Posted 04 July 2017 - 06:59 PM

I came across this WaPo article called
America Badly Needs Relationship Counselling

Can't say I disagree with it :)

https://www.washingt...m=.a249d6b70c79
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#9 Themis

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Posted 04 July 2017 - 07:46 PM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 04 July 2017 - 01:49 AM, said:

They said: "All of the previous Presidents, all 44 of them, were able to seperate the man from the Office. Trump, so far, hasn't managed to do this. Which is why we get tweets, which for the most part, aren't something average people would consider "Presidential".

Having said that, at least for me, the choice was still either vote for Trump or Hillary might be President. And Hillary as President would have been far far worse for the country, IMO.

I'll agree with the first part while disagreeing strongly with the second.  

But if ONLY 45 would act like someone in the position he is in, I could maybe sleep at night.  I could maybe agree to disagree.  I could maybe manage to just be a member of "the loyal opposition," as most are when the opposing philosophy is in power.  But as long as he continues to disrespect the office, I have to continue to wonder what the frell he will do next and continue to disrespect him.  And I cannot support anyone, even if he is the President, who courts my total disrespect.
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#10 gsmonks

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Posted 04 July 2017 - 08:20 PM

I don't give a rat's arse about Trump. It's the fact that he has followers that I find disturbing.
Capitalism is a pyramid scheme run by the 1%.

#11 Omega

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Posted 05 July 2017 - 08:00 AM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 04 July 2017 - 01:49 AM, said:

I find it highly ironic, and a tab bit amusing, that CNN which claimed the assassination of Trump in the Shakesphere in the park was a "masterpiece", and had no problems whatsoever with Kathy Griffin and Trump's severed head, saying it was "Artistic expression", now apparently have a problem with artistic expression and violence.

Another lie. CNN fired Kathy Griffin over that.

#12 RJDiogenes

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Posted 05 July 2017 - 05:13 PM

View Postsierraleone, on 04 July 2017 - 06:59 PM, said:

I came across this WaPo article called
America Badly Needs Relationship Counselling

Can't say I disagree with it :)

https://www.washingt...m=.a249d6b70c79
That's an excellent article. Fortunately, I'm starting to see more and more stuff like this show up in fairly high-profile places.  Maybe President The Donald was a wake-up call after all.
Please visit The RJDiogenes Store. Posted Image   And my Gallery. Posted Image And my YouTube Page. Posted Image And read Trunkards. Posted Image  And then there's my Heroes Essays.  Posted Image


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