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Erasing history


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#1 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 08:21 AM

So where does this erasing history end? This week it's removing Robert E Lee, what's next week....Edison? Washington? Franklin? WW1? WW2? what's next on erasing history agenda?
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

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#2 Themis

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 08:29 AM

So you're with your leader on this?  Robert E. Lee was a traitor to the US.  And most of these statues were erected in the '20's or later.  These statues belong in a museum, not in a place of honor.  Rave on.
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#3 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 08:40 AM

I'm not with anyone.  I'm just asking where the erasing history ends?
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

The last republican leaning independent on this message board. All others have been silenced and driven off, or outright banned. Only ONE remains. I guess HighLander had it right all along....In the end, there can be only ONE.

#4 Sci-Fi Girl

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 09:21 AM

No one is erasing history, and it should stay in museums and history books.  The problem is with honoring and celebrating the wrong (and losing) side.  

No one is keeping statues of Hitler around in public places of honor, but that history has certainly not been erased.  (Thought the holocaust deniers would love to, and make it easier to do again.)

SFG

Edited by Sci-Fi Girl, 16 August 2017 - 09:23 AM.

"A song is like a picture of a bird in flight; the bird was moving before the picture was taken, and no doubt continued after."   - Pete Seeger

Pete Seeger's life was a picture of an idea in flight, and the idea will continue long after.  As long as there are people with goodness and courage in their hearts, the idea will continue forever.

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#5 sierraleone

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 09:27 AM

When does supporting unreservedly the personhood of all people begin?

And you can't really fully do that as a society until you wrestle with the complex history that denied them personhood that affects their position and relationship within society to this day.

Who's history and voices has actually been nearly washed out of history?

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#6 sierraleone

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 09:35 AM

https://www.washingt...m=.1fadc2ae186d
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Rule#4: Be outraged.
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#7 Sci-Fi Girl

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 09:50 AM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 16 August 2017 - 08:21 AM, said:

So where does this erasing history end? This week it's removing Robert E Lee, what's next week....Edison? Washington? Franklin? WW1? WW2? what's next on erasing history agenda?

No one is suggesting that the civil war didn't happen, or that the south didn't win ... Oh Wait.

See, keeping the statue in a public place is a kind of misleading version of history, suggesting there are still those who would like to secede or overturn the government of this country.  That is the opposite of patriotism, if they are rejecting America as a nation.

To quote Andromeda:

Quote

"Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it; those who fail to learn history correctly-why they are simply doomed."
--Achem Dro'hm,
The Illusion of Historical Truth
CY 4971


Removing a statue does not erase the knowledge that the civil war happened.  There is still plenty of evidence that it happened.  It's what we do with that knowledge that matters.  What we learn from it, what we choose to change, and what we choose to leave behind.

SFG

Edited by Sci-Fi Girl, 16 August 2017 - 09:52 AM.

"A song is like a picture of a bird in flight; the bird was moving before the picture was taken, and no doubt continued after."   - Pete Seeger

Pete Seeger's life was a picture of an idea in flight, and the idea will continue long after.  As long as there are people with goodness and courage in their hearts, the idea will continue forever.

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Check out my music threads:

Beautiful Music: Folk, Acoustic, Traditional, and World

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#8 QueenTiye

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 11:30 AM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 16 August 2017 - 08:21 AM, said:

So where does this erasing history end? This week it's removing Robert E Lee, what's next week....Edison? Washington? Franklin? WW1? WW2? what's next on erasing history agenda?

I used to count you as a friend, LoTS.  In hopes that I may still do so, I offer you a conservative take on the topic: http://www.nationalr...al-right-choice

Allow me to continue to show you what thinking conservatives think: http://www.nationalr...vative-movement

When we stop being tribal and partisan, and just start THINKING, it turns out that we can have sane conversations, even when we have different opinions.  Some people may have forgotten in the years that I was a President Obama supporter, that I am one of the folks who identified as conservative-leaning on this board.  AND yet - I find the current climate hostile.  Not to my views, but to ME.  Personally.  For the crime of existing and wanting to.  I don't think anyone who supports, endorses, gives cover for, excuses those who are hostile to ME, are my friends.

QT

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#9 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 01:04 PM

^

I'm on my phone,  and can't copy and paste quotes.

The articles you linked are very interesting,  and thought provoking. I don't like defending white supremacist groups. I find them revolting,  the same way I find other hate groups revolting.

I disagree with Trump in his statement that not everyone at rally was a white supremacist. I disagree with taking down statues, trying to erase history; but there would be no way I would attend a LOL rally to protest removing statues.

However,  Trump is also right in that it takes 2 to fight. Now which group started violence I don't know, but both are responsible for the violence.  Not the murder done, that is squarely on the racist who used his car like he was a member of ISIS.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

The last republican leaning independent on this message board. All others have been silenced and driven off, or outright banned. Only ONE remains. I guess HighLander had it right all along....In the end, there can be only ONE.

#10 yadda yadda

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 02:21 PM

No, history shouldn't be erased. But statues are not history. That's where your simple-minded fallacious meme steers you awry. There are no statues to Hitler, Goebbels, or Himmler in Germany or elsewhere. Hitler and his Nazi-ism are still remembered, very well by some friends of Trump in infected pockets of our country. History is available to those who know how to read, not just march around with torches shouting racist slogans.

History shouldn't be erased, maybe just adjusted to ones current political leanings. Here we've read about our brave ragtag army of Minutemen farmers and shopkeepers shooting at the Redcoats from behind stone walls and trees to throw off the shackles of British oppression and tyranny. What hasn't been properly considered is that those Redcoats had permits to assemble and parade through the countryside. Permitted by good old King George himself. The unruly mobs of New England colonists had no permit to hide behind walls and perpetrate violence on those British soldiers. Maybe the Brits had some bad people, some rough types among them. But they were marching to preserve the legitimacy and historical validity of their king, and then these alt-left colonists descended upon them in violence. Tyranny and oppression from many sides?

Or bump it up 160 or so years and here we have Hitler rolling across Europe, advancing the cause and purpose of his Fatherland and superior race. And then just to spoil his party we send our soldiers over to perpetrate violence upon those Germans, just doing their Third Reich thing. Trump says and you concur that it takes "2 to fight". So I guess in your and Trump's " history" that the US and its WWII allies were equally responsible for the violence. Were they equally responsible for the millions of holocaust victims of Nazi Germany and the hundreds of thousands who died from starvation and disease in the Warsaw ghettoes? Are the Allied soldiers any more or less responsible for these results of the "violence" of WWII than the counter protesters of Nazi evil at Charlottesville were "responsible" for the Nazi who ran over Heather Heyer?

Edited by yadda yadda, 16 August 2017 - 02:26 PM.


#11 QueenTiye

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 03:09 PM

Further to Yadda's point.

I spent my 50th birthday at the newly erected National Museum of African-American History and Culture.  It's fantastic.  It's FULL of history.  FULL of things that I think everyone should know.  FULL of FACTS about the history of race, racism, slavery, etc. in this country. It's brilliant.

There's an amazing statue of Benjamin Banneker in the museum.  Have you ever seen one?  I think there's one somewhere else in DC...  I think it was officially commissioned in this century.  Do you know who Benjamin Banneker is?  If not - why don't you google him?  I'm not trying to put anyone on the spot.  Just pointing out that genuine contributors to, and heros OF the United States of America get very little air play or statuary.  While some outright traitors, and other, more complicated personages (like Gen. Robert E. Lee) have plenty of statues.

In a country where Robert E. Lee chose the LOSING SIDE of a conflict that was intended to destroy our nation... why is it perfectly ok for some states to celebrate his birthday alongside Martin Luthor King's birthday?  What's the purpose? What's the message being sent?

I imagine that many here on this board don't have a clue about any of this, and would be surprised. Shocked, maybe! about the clear imbalance.  But history is NEVER to be forgotten.  It is up to us to choose HOW we tell it - who we glorify, who we choose to ignore, who we choose to write out of the story.  And it's our national obligation and right, to scrutinze carefully who's getting more airtime than they deserve.  What story are we telling about ourselves?  Why does this person's story matter?

I exist. My history is part of this country's history.  And the horrible things done to my ancestors are part of this country's history.  I have just as much right to participate in scruitinzing the story we tell as any other American.  And in the long run - just as much right to advocate that the story we tell doesn't perpetuate the idea that excluding me from the story was ever the right thing to do - a value worth fighting for, etc. I'd rather tell a story about how the whole of America is worth fighting for.  You know, the story that supports our pledge: With liberty and justice for all.

QT

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#12 sierraleone

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 03:41 PM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 16 August 2017 - 01:04 PM, said:

^

I'm on my phone,  and can't copy and paste quotes.

The articles you linked are very interesting,  and thought provoking. I don't like defending white supremacist groups. I find them revolting,  the same way I find other hate groups revolting.

I disagree with Trump in his statement that not everyone at rally was a white supremacist. I disagree with taking down statues, trying to erase history; but there would be no way I would attend a LOL rally to protest removing statues.

However,  Trump is also right in that it takes 2 to fight. Now which group started violence I don't know, but both are responsible for the violence.  Not the murder done, that is squarely on the racist who used his car like he was a member of ISIS.

Thank you for clarifying, because I was left not quite sure, with your sometimes-taken not taking sides/devil's advocate stance.

As for what I bolded: You don't have to. That is the great thing about it.

Now, maybe you don't mean their ideology, which, if you find them as groups disgusting, you probably find their ideology digusting.
Maybe you mean their human rights. Right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. Free speech, right to vote. Freedom of association, to peaceable assemble.  Right to due process if they break the law (which can include conspiring to break laws). Etc, etc. You'd defend all their rights to these rights right? I don't think you'd have many disagreeing there.

Now, as I understand it, the US doesn't have hate-speech laws. Basically free-speech is curtailed in two circumstances: safety (ex: shouting fire-in-a-theater), and if the speech that will lead to imminent violence, i.e. "fighting words". I don't know how they determine the latter…. Is not expressing "your kind shouldn't exist at all/in my nation, or if your kind do exist here they need to be put in their place in the hierarchy below my kind" fighting words? Is there a way to make *that* verboten, legally speaking?

So, you (and I) think that they have human rights like everyone else, including due process. Even though they don't respect other humans' rights, we respect theirs.

Why do you defend their human rights, but not Omar Khadr's, then a minor? The guy who drove into the protestors is getting more due process than Canadian teen Khadr could even dream of for the decade he was in Guantanamo.

Edited by sierraleone, 16 August 2017 - 03:47 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#13 sierraleone

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 05:24 PM

This WaPo article is titled: The U.S. Capitol has at least three times as many statues of Confederate Figures as it does of black people.

Exactly who's history is being undermined or left unsaid here?
A group of men who largely are not know for important contributions to this nation outside of being on the loosing side of a 4 year civil war (I've heard some people call these statues participation trophies…).
Or a group who's peoples have been here since before there was a United States (just 12 years after the 1607 start of Jamestown Virginia )?

It specifically says blacks, not people of colour, so I don't know if they evaluated indigenous peoples (preceding European settlement by millenia), hispanic peoples (which, even solely thru Spanish ancestry, predate other European settlements in current U.S. territory), or the Chinese (first wave in 1815 immigrated to the West Coast, though historians say Chinese presence in North American predate that). But I don't doubt that they are underrepresented too.

One may say, well, do we have to move these statues to make space for these other statues? It is a possibility, only limited amount of floor space and parks. We do have to make trade offs when we make these decisions. So of course sometimes statues would be taken down from prominence, it is just natural, just like museums change around their exhibits. So fighting change seems more unnatural than letting change happen based on current perspectives and priorities.

Really, 3 times as many Confederate figures from a 4 year civil war than black people from all to the U.S. history? Now, I am not saying we should make it proportionate exactly, but if we did, even if we counted a 4 year civil war as worth 50 years of history, and only went from the European settlements as our start date. ~500 years…. 10 periods of history… Would if be unreasonable to expect 10 times as many statues of black people as there are Confederate figures? Even if one says that Black people are not a majority of the population, and were prevented from reaching their full potential due to slavery, I'd like to see a reasonable argument supporting venerating statues of 3 times as many Confederate figures from a 4 year civil war than black people from all of U.S. history...

Edited by sierraleone, 16 August 2017 - 06:51 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#14 sierraleone

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 06:40 PM

I thought Trump liked people who won….
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#15 yadda yadda

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 07:02 PM

View Postyadda yadda, on 16 August 2017 - 02:21 PM, said:

No, history shouldn't be erased. But statues are not history. That's where your simple-minded fallacious meme steers you awry. There are no statues to Hitler, Goebbels, or Himmler in Germany or elsewhere. Hitler and his Nazi-ism are still remembered, very well by some friends of Trump in infected pockets of our country. History is available to those who know how to read, not just march around with torches shouting racist slogans.

History shouldn't be erased, maybe just adjusted to ones current political leanings. Here we've read about our brave ragtag army of Minutemen farmers and shopkeepers shooting at the Redcoats from behind stone walls and trees to throw off the shackles of British oppression and tyranny. What hasn't been properly considered is that those Redcoats had permits to assemble and parade through the countryside. Permitted by good old King George himself. The unruly mobs of New England colonists had no permit to hide behind walls and perpetrate violence on those British soldiers. Maybe the Brits had some bad people, some rough types among them. But they were marching to preserve the legitimacy and historical validity of their king, and then these alt-left colonists descended upon them in violence. Tyranny and oppression from many sides?

Or bump it up 160 or so years and here we have Hitler rolling across Europe, advancing the cause and purpose of his Fatherland and superior race. And then just to spoil his party we send our soldiers over to perpetrate violence upon those Germans, just doing their Third Reich thing. Trump says and you concur that it takes "2 to fight". So I guess in your and Trump's " history" that the US and its WWII allies were equally responsible for the violence. Were they equally responsible for the millions of holocaust victims of Nazi Germany and the hundreds of thousands who died from starvation and disease in the Warsaw ghettoes? Are the Allied soldiers any more or less responsible for these results of the "violence" of WWII than the counter protesters of Nazi evil at Charlottesville were "responsible" for the Nazi who ran over Heather Heyer?

Hey, LoTS, you wrote a thread here asking a question about erasing history. I took the time to answer your question thoughtfully, as have others here. Do you plan on responding in good faith and discussing this issue or was your question simply rhetorical? Because if it is just another drive by post where you never return to respond like so many other times you have practiced this cop out please let that be known in the thread title so nobody has to waste time humoring you.

#16 Mary Rose

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 07:40 PM

Interesting to call Robert E. Lee a traitor.  He didn't support slavery or the Union breaking up but he ultimately couldn't fight against his beloved home state of Virginia.  Meanwhile up here in the North there were plenty of people who didn't think keeping the South in the Union was worth going to war over.  Their attitude was 'Let them go.  Who cares?  There were riots over it in New York.  Are they traitors too?

BTW, did you guys know that slavery was on its way out in the South until Eli Whitney invented the cotton gin?  That made the plantation system economically viable.  And he was from Connecticut like me.  I still live here and there are schools and streets named for him.  But he caused the extension of slavery.

My point is that it's all too easy to buy into the narrative of North good, South bad.  But when the Southern blacks who migrated here what did they find?  Not the utopia they might have thought.  There was and still is plenty of racism up here.  It just wasn't blatant like in the South but it was there.

There was even a KKK rally here once when I was younger.  It made the papers because people were upset about it.  But free speech isn't only for speech you agree with and as much as I find their attitude and organization horrible to protect my right of free speech I must protect theirs as well.  'I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say' it is a quote I read.

I don't actually think the statues should come down.  Let them stay.  It's a part of our history that as ugly as it is remind us that we are far from perfect and we never will be.  I'm also sick of the self righteousness of those who want to pretend that the North is so much superior to the South.  We aren't really and as a Northerner I'm here to tell you that.
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#17 Omega

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 07:59 PM

Personally, I'd just like to see this monstrosity gone.
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#18 sierraleone

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 08:48 PM

View PostMary Rose, on 17 August 2017 - 07:40 PM, said:

Interesting to call Robert E. Lee a traitor.  He didn't support slavery or the Union breaking up but he ultimately couldn't fight against his beloved home state of Virginia.

I've read that it was more complicated than that (though isn't it always?).

Quote

My point is that it's all too easy to buy into the narrative of North good, South bad.  But when the Southern blacks who migrated here what did they find?  Not the utopia they might have thought.  There was and still is plenty of racism up here.  It just wasn't blatant like in the South but it was there.

Same further north. Canadians seem to think that racism is not really a problem here…. They either don't read about it, and they don't have diverse friends or they don't talk to them about it. I saw a Vice report on the Friday and Saturday rally, the had a journalist imbedded in the Fascists, and one of the guys there was Canadian. Yeah, a guy from Canada purportedly went to Virginia to protest the taking down of a Confederate statue…. I think not….

I think Canada's wickedest racism (in its virulence and effects) is visited upon the First Nations (Native Americans to Americans), but other groups are certainly greatly harmed by it also.

Quote

But free speech isn't only for speech you agree with and as much as I find their attitude and organization horrible to protect my right of free speech I must protect theirs as well.  'I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say' it is a quote I read.

Canada has more expansive hate-speech laws than the U.S. But even without such…. At what point does hate speech become nominally illegal in the U.S.? That is, at what point does advocating fascism/white-supremacy/white-nationalism/apartheid-segregation cross the legality line of laws designed to tackle harassment, intimidation, uttering threats? How is their cause/goals not inherently a threatening position, against those deemed lesser and in need of being put in 'their place'?

Quote

I don't actually think the statues should come down.  Let them stay.  It's a part of our history that as ugly as it is remind us that we are far from perfect and we never will be.  I'm also sick of the self righteousness of those who want to pretend that the North is so much superior to the South.  We aren't really and as a Northerner I'm here to tell you that.

Canada has actual had their own issue with this lately. Those I remember from recently:
- A bridge, and building(s) named after a person, Langevin, a Father of Confederation (though I hadn't heard this name before this, the controversy is making history be learned ;) ), who was behind the mandatory Residential Schools for First Nations.
- A Halifax statue of a soldier, and their founder, Cornwallis, who had a scalp bounty (IIRC) on the local First Nations.

- The bridge was renamed to Reconciliation Bridge. The building across from Parliament is now Office of the Prime Minister and the Privy Council.
- There was a conflict near the statue a month or two back, there are discussions about taking it down. It is still up, and when I googled to find his name there was recently a rally at that statue in solidarity with Charlottesville/against white-supremacy.

Edited by sierraleone, 17 August 2017 - 09:13 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#19 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 10:11 PM

yadda yadda said:


Hey, LoTS, you wrote a thread here asking a question about erasing history. I took the time to answer your question thoughtfully, as have others here. Do you plan on responding in good faith and discussing this issue or was your question simply rhetorical? Because if it is just another drive by post where you never return to respond like so many other times you have practiced this cop out please let that be known in the thread title so nobody has to waste time humoring you.

I'm not home, I'm on my phone now, and posting links to bolster, or better illustrate, my point is something I can't do on my phone.

Your right in that I sometimes back out of threads. I do that when it becomes clear that neither is going to change the others mind and it will just be a merry go round, going back and forth.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

The last republican leaning independent on this message board. All others have been silenced and driven off, or outright banned. Only ONE remains. I guess HighLander had it right all along....In the end, there can be only ONE.

#20 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 10:14 PM

Also, trying to copy and paste quotes from others is something else I can't do on my phone.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

The last republican leaning independent on this message board. All others have been silenced and driven off, or outright banned. Only ONE remains. I guess HighLander had it right all along....In the end, there can be only ONE.


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