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Erasing history


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#21 yadda yadda

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 10:51 PM

View PostMary Rose, on 17 August 2017 - 07:40 PM, said:

Interesting to call Robert E. Lee a traitor.  He didn't support slavery or the Union breaking up but he ultimately couldn't fight against his beloved home state of Virginia.  Meanwhile up here in the North there were plenty of people who didn't think keeping the South in the Union was worth going to war over.  Their attitude was 'Let them go.  Who cares?  There were riots over it in New York.  Are they traitors too?

BTW, did you guys know that slavery was on its way out in the South until Eli Whitney invented the cotton gin?  That made the plantation system economically viable.  And he was from Connecticut like me.  I still live here and there are schools and streets named for him.  But he caused the extension of slavery.

My point is that it's all too easy to buy into the narrative of North good, South bad.  But when the Southern blacks who migrated here what did they find?  Not the utopia they might have thought.  There was and still is plenty of racism up here.  It just wasn't blatant like in the South but it was there.

There was even a KKK rally here once when I was younger.  It made the papers because people were upset about it.  But free speech isn't only for speech you agree with and as much as I find their attitude and organization horrible to protect my right of free speech I must protect theirs as well.  'I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say' it is a quote I read.

I don't actually think the statues should come down.  Let them stay.  It's a part of our history that as ugly as it is remind us that we are far from perfect and we never will be.  I'm also sick of the self righteousness of those who want to pretend that the North is so much superior to the South.  We aren't really and as a Northerner I'm here to tell you that.

I have talked to folks who fervently believe that the Civil War was not fought over slavery, but regional and state's independence, rights, and economic interests. This has been brought up and proven to be false at least twice, maybe more, in the seven or eight years I've been involved with EI. Racial supremacy and religious-based subjugation of African peoples was in fact the cornerstone of the foundation of the Confederacy's establishment. Yet this is largely unknown to those Southerners and Confederacy buffs who claim that the stars and bars flag and other Confederate paraphernalia represent their "heritage", not racism. They have their perspective of "history", as inaccurate as it is, because the real history has been revised, lied about, and passed down to reinforce a romanticized and whitewashed account of reality for the purposes of propping up a culture to be manipulated for political gain and solidifying "white pride" to perpetuate racial animus against those of color.

Many of the beliefs and oral histories Confederate followers and advocates adhere to are largely mythical. One of these whitewashed ideals of Confederate lore is the idea that Robert E. Lee was such a paragon of virtue, a heroic Son of the South. His life and times are explored comprehensively in this recent Atlantic article. It is indeed eye opening.

https://www.theatlan...ral-lee/529038/

Edited by yadda yadda, 18 August 2017 - 12:07 AM.


#22 yadda yadda

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 11:08 PM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 17 August 2017 - 10:11 PM, said:

yadda yadda said:


Hey, LoTS, you wrote a thread here asking a question about erasing history. I took the time to answer your question thoughtfully, as have others here. Do you plan on responding in good faith and discussing this issue or was your question simply rhetorical? Because if it is just another drive by post where you never return to respond like so many other times you have practiced this cop out please let that be known in the thread title so nobody has to waste time humoring you.

I'm not home, I'm on my phone now, and posting links to bolster, or better illustrate, my point is something I can't do on my phone.

Your right in that I sometimes back out of threads. I do that when it becomes clear that neither is going to change the others mind and it will just be a merry go round, going back and forth.

OK, point taken. But in my much repeated experience it has appeared that you bail from a thread when conclusive proof is offered to confirm the error or falsity of your argument and realizing you are cornered by irrefutable evidence you just drop through a trapdoor and disappear.

Edited by yadda yadda, 17 August 2017 - 11:09 PM.


#23 gsmonks

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 02:34 AM

Yeah . . . the Civil War thing is not as simple as all that.

What's being forgotten here is that after the war, both sides regularly got together at events that gradually turned into a favourite American pastime- Civil War Reenactment clubs and societies. It was something that took on a life all its own, like Einstein's hair, or doing Elvis impersonations.

Albert Woolson was the last of the combatants to die. The reason I remember this is because he died Aug 2 in the year and month I was born, 25 days before my birthday.

Here he is with his counterpart from the opposing side:

https://i.amz.mshcdn...Civil-final.jpg

Those that fought the war fraternised with one another till the day they died, reliving their shared experiences. In there somewhere was the Confederate Flag, and the pride of belonging to the South.

These former soldiers were not about White Supremacy or Racism (although many from both sides were involved in Reconstruction, the KKK, and other abominations).

This camaraderie still exists today in the form of Civil War reenactment clubs, organisations and societies. I myself have many friends who participate in them (musicians playing period instruments, mainly). Great fun.

They are on the sidelines while this kerfuffle takes place, worrying about the outcome. The North/South camaraderie born from the ashes of the Civil War is being shoved aside by something else entirely. It's something that has been institutionalised and is part of the fabric of US society and history, and bears no resemblance whatsoever to the ugly rhetoric taking place today.

This is the true history that is in danger.
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#24 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 11:25 AM

I'm still on phone, so can't copy and paste quotes. I'll be heading home tomorrow,  so will be back on my computer Monday.

Just wanted to say, the removing statues isn't by itself erasing history.  It is, however,  the first step in erasing history.  Because once all statues are removed,  if you think it will stop there, think again. Those who want the statues gone are going to be satisfied,  nope. The next step will be to remove those figures from history books.

And what about the klansman congressman,  Byrd, who Hillary Clinton said was her mentor? Are we going to rename all buildings that bear his name? Are we going to remove any statues of him? Even though a high ranking Democrat heaped praise upon him? Plus, not positive but I believe he was also a Democrat.
Plus, let's not forget, the democrat party was, back in the day, the party arguing FOR slavery. They were firmly against the civil rights movement,  so are we going to disband the democrat party?
As I asked originally,  where does this erasing, or rewriting,  of history end?
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

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#25 sierraleone

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 11:59 AM

I disagree with the premise of your question. Changing the understanding of our history is not axiomatically bad.

Understanding of history is always being either passively changed (through forgetting, neglecting, etc.), or actively changed (through new/updated research/discoveries/analysis or prominence of new voices/perspectives, right wrong or other, or even oppression/marginalization of peoples).

If I disagree with the premise of your question, how can I answer it? I think that has been the problem of some other questions you have asked before too now that I think about it.

Most people here have tried to answer different questions than what you asked (such is what the confederate monuments represent and why they could or should be taken down).

Ask better questions and maybe you will get better answers.


ETA: Though I do want to thank you for not dropping this thread and continue dialogue.
Thank you :)

Edited by sierraleone, 18 August 2017 - 03:27 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
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#26 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 12:15 PM

^

You're fooling yourself if you think those wanting statues gone will stop there. They most certainly will try and completely remove them from history.  And anyone who complains about it will be branded racist.

But only time will prove me right.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

The last republican leaning independent on this message board. All others have been silenced and driven off, or outright banned. Only ONE remains. I guess HighLander had it right all along....In the end, there can be only ONE.

#27 yadda yadda

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 01:31 PM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 18 August 2017 - 11:25 AM, said:

I'm still on phone, so can't copy and paste quotes. I'll be heading home tomorrow,  so will be back on my computer Monday.

Just wanted to say, the removing statues isn't by itself erasing history.  It is, however,  the first step in erasing history.  Because once all statues are removed,  if you think it will stop there, think again. Those who want the statues gone are going to be satisfied,  nope. The next step will be to remove those figures from history books.

And what about the klansman congressman,  Byrd, who Hillary Clinton said was her mentor? Are we going to rename all buildings that bear his name? Are we going to remove any statues of him? Even though a high ranking Democrat heaped praise upon him? Plus, not positive but I believe he was also a Democrat.
Plus, let's not forget, the democrat party was, back in the day, the party arguing FOR slavery. They were firmly against the civil rights movement,  so are we going to disband the democrat party?
As I asked originally,  where does this erasing, or rewriting,  of history end?

LoTS, you ask "where does this erasing, or rewriting, of history end? I guess I'd have to say perhaps in your own mind, since that's where it started. It's a ridiculous and fallacious premise to state that the existence or non-existence of statues constitutes the whole or crux of history. Seriously man, take stock of the history that you think you know. Columbus discovered America in 1492. Did you learn of that from reading plaques on the base of statues to Columbus? The USA won independence from Britain because of the Revolutionary War. There are probably a few statues around commemorating pivotal figures and events during that conflict. Is that how you learned of American history and our nation's formation? Or did you learn it in class in 5th grade?

You made a reference before to who's next in your hypothetical statue pulling " frenzy" I believe you mentioned Thomas Edison. Are there statues to Edison? Perhaps in his town of birth, but I've never seen one...have you? Yet somehow I know who he was and a lot about what he did. How is that possible if I've never seen a statue of him? I made a wonderful trip to Mt. Rushmore in South Dakota last year. It was grand and incredibly memorable and I'd recommend to anyone, American or not. But if I never saw Rushmore, or if terrorists managed to blast it to rubble so nobody could, do you really think the historical importance of Washington, Lincoln, Roosevelt, and Obama whose faces adorn it would ever be forgotten to history? Just checking to see if you were paying attention there. :)

As for your "it won't stop there, after the statues come the erasing from the history books" prophecy, I assume you're talking about school history textbooks? Because you do realize the are plenty of books on history to go around in libraries, Barnes and Noble, and on Amazon to " teach" you about history from practically any perspective you care to approach it from. You can read about  "history" from a liberal or conservative or objectively based factual account, based upon the author's interpretations or angles of research. As for middle school history texts, you don't think "erasure" or adjustment of history has been and is going on already? The state of Texas is so large and commanding of the flow of the textbook business that their hyper-conservative and religious based local school boards in concert have pressured the publishers of textbooks to "revise" historical material to more accurately reflect their Christian and conservative worldview to describing historical slavery as more or less immigrant worker programs where these "workers" felt largely fulfilled and content in their "jobs". Texas is so large a part of national textbook demand that these history books are essentially forced on school districts  outside Texas because there are only so many textbook publishers to distribute and this "revised" sort of history becomes what many kids are then taught by. This is true. You could look it up when you get home to your computer.





#28 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 02:12 PM

^

I will respond more when I get home.  But I'm jealous.  I've never been to My. Rushmore,  and probably won't be there anytime soon.  Your adding Obama to it was funny. LOL
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

The last republican leaning independent on this message board. All others have been silenced and driven off, or outright banned. Only ONE remains. I guess HighLander had it right all along....In the end, there can be only ONE.

#29 sierraleone

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 03:48 PM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 18 August 2017 - 12:15 PM, said:

^

You're fooling yourself if you think those wanting statues gone will stop there. They most certainly will try and completely remove them from history.  And anyone who complains about it will be branded racist.

But only time will prove me right.

I thought I made it quite apparent I don't think change will stop. The only constant is change.
Your premise suggest that change is axiomatically bad. That is quite an untenable position.
The position that change is axiomatically good would be equally bad; I don't hold such a position.

I remember you saying once that you keep posting here to hone your arguing skills. Keep trying.

Edited by sierraleone, 18 August 2017 - 04:00 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#30 RJDiogenes

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 06:44 PM

View PostMary Rose, on 17 August 2017 - 07:40 PM, said:

But free speech isn't only for speech you agree with and as much as I find their attitude and organization horrible to protect my right of free speech I must protect theirs as well.  'I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say' it is a quote I read.  
I completely agree.  As the Left Wing used to say in it's more liberal days, the purpose of free-speech protection is to protect unpopular speech-- popular speech doesn't need protection.  This is why I admire the ACLU-- they defend everybody, whether they like them or not.  The principle of equality under the law has been a cornerstone of American values since John Adams defended the British soldiers of the Boston Massacre.

Besides, suppressing an ideology only gives it more power.  The only way to beat the bad guys is to play fair and be better than they are.
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#31 sierraleone

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 07:21 PM

View PostRJDiogenes, on 18 August 2017 - 06:44 PM, said:

I completely agree.  As the Left Wing used to say in it's more liberal days, the purpose of free-speech protection is to protect unpopular speech-- popular speech doesn't need protection.  This is why I admire the ACLU-- they defend everybody, whether they like them or not.  The principle of equality under the law has been a cornerstone of American values since John Adams defended the British soldiers of the Boston Massacre.

Besides, suppressing an ideology only gives it more power.  The only way to beat the bad guys is to play fair and be better than they are.

I am not sure those are facts, but more an argument that doing those things (suppressing/oppressing an ideology, and/or cheating) are held morally wrong.

Ideology is a system of ideas, basically a way of thinking, or a worldview. I don't know that ideology of the pre-1500 ideology of people indigenous to America, or people brought there as slaves, has really survived the oppression they have experienced over the last 500 years. Not that I'd expect their ideology to remain static or identical to what it was then, but certain it lost much of its power under oppression. It was intentional cultural genocide.

Is cheating never justified? We say murder is wrong, but we have many exceptions. Death penalty, war, passion/heat of the moment, defence (not just of life, but of bodily autonomy/agency), many people would argue the jurisdictions that allow euthanasia and abortion.
I am not suggesting cheating just because the other side cheats. I am thinking more of a tolerance analogy.
Isn't tolerating the intolerant self-defeating?

As has been said before, Fascists/KKK/etc, are by their very nature a threat. At what point is their promoting their ideology crossing legal lines of harassment, uttering threats, intimidation? They do not trade ideas in good faith.
The very nature of their ideology is to cheat non-white/etc of their equality and all their rights therein.

People like to say Hate Speech is a slippery slope. Then when are the hate speech laws in other Western countries going to lead to the death, or at least deteriorating, of free speech and civil liberties there?

Canada has 7 built-in limits to the application of its hate-speech laws, per this Canadian news article.

Edited by sierraleone, 19 August 2017 - 11:17 AM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#32 yadda yadda

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 07:41 PM

View PostRJDiogenes, on 18 August 2017 - 06:44 PM, said:

View PostMary Rose, on 17 August 2017 - 07:40 PM, said:

But free speech isn't only for speech you agree with and as much as I find their attitude and organization horrible to protect my right of free speech I must protect theirs as well.  'I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say' it is a quote I read.  
I completely agree.  As the Left Wing used to say in it's more liberal days, the purpose of free-speech protection is to protect unpopular speech-- popular speech doesn't need protection.  This is why I admire the ACLU-- they defend everybody, whether they like them or not.  The principle of equality under the law has been a cornerstone of American values since John Adams defended the British soldiers of the Boston Massacre.

Besides, suppressing an ideology only gives it more power.  The only way to beat the bad guys is to play fair and be better than they are.

I don't know about that, RJ. That seems simplistic to me. There's more than one way to beat the bad guys. We beat these same bad guys in WWII by shooting them and bombing the sh!t out of them, and cutting off the head of their leadership. Sometimes it's necessary to suppress an ideology by wiping out those who espouse it and then follow up their rhetoric with merciless mind numbing inhuman murder. Sometimes you just can't play fair and be better than monsters.

It's one thing to honor and glorify freedom of speech because let's face it, we all know sticks and stones can break my bones, but words can never hurt me. It's when the expression of those venomous words lead to broken bones from sticks and stones and death from Dodge Challengers, that a more basic instinct and principle of self defense comes into play.

Edited by yadda yadda, 18 August 2017 - 07:43 PM.


#33 sierraleone

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 08:07 PM

^ Nice alliteration there ;)

Yeah, Nazis will cheat to cheat non-Nazis out of equality, their rights, even their lives.

Unless incompetence, cheaters will win over their fair and ethical opponents.
That is why we have government regulations covering everything from water-quality to wall-street.
To protect us from cheaters. People acting not-in-good-faith. People gaming the system for their own benefit.
Why would hate-speech be different? Hate-speech calling for, based on immutable characteristics, genocide /violence /inequality /segregation /expulsion?

The Fascist/Nazis were ignored before…. That is not a fight I would want to loose…. I wouldn't treat this as a gentlemen's match....

Their whole ideology is based on unfairness. They don't and won't play fair, which gives them an advantage. Whether it is enough of an advantage will depend on the strength of the community's peoples, institutions and even economy. But it can happen anywhere.

Am I saying abandon fairness? No. Abandon values on free-speech? No.
There are already slight restrictions on free speech, based on safety (shouting fire in a crowd, conveying threats, harassment, intimidation).
I am suggesting make it clear that hate-speech is considered to be a form of uttering threats, harassment and/or intimidation. And make it so only the most egregious hate-speech would be prosecutable.
It is not a sure fire-wall against fascism/KKK/white-supremacy/nationalist, but it is a start.

Edited by sierraleone, 18 August 2017 - 08:21 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#34 gsmonks

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 10:36 PM

I just want to clarify something the pundits keep yakking about right now- "There are no good Nazis."

It depends which Nazis you're talking about. The Neo-variety, certainly, because they're free people who are gravitating to evil. But the WWII variety . . . a good many were forced conscripts who faced being shot if they didn't don the uniform. Even a good many of those who joined the movement of their own free will came to regret it.

"No good Nazis" is a meme and an absolute, and as all sane people know, there are no absolutes. It's the insane and evil-doers who truck in absolutes. So I say to the pundits, "Point the finger at the movement, but don't be overly quick to judge the followers. A good many of them are people who have simply lost their way."
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#35 gsmonks

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 10:46 PM

As to "erasing history" . . .

History is always being rewritten. That's why we now have historiography, aka the study of history itself.

In many cases it's because the past has belatedly caught up with monsters like Cornwallis, who was a murderous thug on both sides of the border. He was known as such at the time. What changed is the powers that be who for generations had "history" as their plaything.
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#36 yadda yadda

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Posted 19 August 2017 - 12:38 AM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 18 August 2017 - 02:12 PM, said:

^

I will respond more when I get home.  But I'm jealous.  I've never been to My. Rushmore,  and probably won't be there anytime soon.  Your adding Obama to it was funny. LOL

Mt. Rushmore is definitely worth a visit, and the film in the museum detailing the history, construction, and planning was amazing. Even if you wait a few years till you're retired, like I am. I'd visit it in the Spring or Fall, outside of Summer rush season if I were you. The multi-level parking lot is so huge it looks like it could hold 50,000 cars. And though it wasn't the least bit full when I was there in April, the docents said it's packed with school kids and families as a destination in the summer months.

I wanted to distill my argument in my first post to just one question. What have you, or anyone you know, learned about history from a statue that you didn't already know from school? Besides how high and relentlessly pigeons can crap when they put their little bird brain minds to it?

#37 gsmonks

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Posted 19 August 2017 - 10:57 AM

History will demonstrate that Obama was one of the great presidents, LoTS.

Those that can't see or understand that probably never will, can't see the forest for the trees, and in my view are the proverbial swine presented with the proverbial pearls.
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#38 sierraleone

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Posted 19 August 2017 - 11:25 AM

I found a link to the hate-speech portion of the Canadian criminal code if anyone is interested.

http://laws-lois.jus...ection-319.html
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#39 Elara

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Posted 19 August 2017 - 04:17 PM

View Postyadda yadda, on 18 August 2017 - 07:41 PM, said:

I don't know about that, RJ. That seems simplistic to me. There's more than one way to beat the bad guys. We beat these same bad guys in WWII by shooting them and bombing the sh!t out of them, and cutting off the head of their leadership. Sometimes it's necessary to suppress an ideology by wiping out those who espouse it and then follow up their rhetoric with merciless mind numbing inhuman murder. Sometimes you just can't play fair and be better than monsters.

It's one thing to honor and glorify freedom of speech because let's face it, we all know sticks and stones can break my bones, but words can never hurt me. It's when the expression of those venomous words lead to broken bones from sticks and stones and death from Dodge Challengers, that a more basic instinct and principle of self defense comes into play.

The nazi party was ignored, allowed to spew their sickness, culminating in the killings of millions of people. Free speech is good, but hate speech should never be ignored in the futile hopes that peace and love will change them.

~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.

As for the statues, should they be removed? Let me ask you one question, LotS, how do you feel about an American citizen that betrays the U.S.?
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#40 gsmonks

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Posted 19 August 2017 - 04:22 PM

I personally don't think the statues should be removed. I think they should all be converted into something useful.

Like public urinals . . .
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