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Erasing history


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#81 gsmonks

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 09:07 PM

Ha! I knew it! You're one of those lousy dog-lovers! :smirk:
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#82 yadda yadda

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 10:13 AM

View Postgsmonks, on 26 August 2017 - 09:07 PM, said:

Ha! I knew it! You're one of those lousy dog-lovers! :smirk:

Yes I am. All for except that damned Taco Bell Mexican air-less. Catlike, they're out to steal your breath, too. And your Gordita or Crunchwrap right off the table. The heart quieros what the heart quieros.

Edited by yadda yadda, 27 August 2017 - 10:14 AM.


#83 RJDiogenes

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 03:54 PM

I never said anything about mottoes, I said the reason that the country was founded.

As for mottoes, the Founding Fathers chose "E Pluribus Unum," which is very appropriate.  "In God We Trust" is the motto of McCarthyism from the height of the Red Scare, and, like the rewrite of the Pledge of Allegiance, needs to be fixed (being unconstitutional and all).

Luckily, the McCarthyists never heard of the American's Creed.
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#84 gsmonks

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Posted 27 August 2017 - 06:47 PM

A motto can be compared to a raison d'etre. By definition a national motto is: "A state motto is used to describe the intent or motivation of the state in a short phrase." You might say it's a belated way of stating the state's reason for being, which is equivalent to a state's founding principle(s).

Founding principles are pretty much worthless, as values change over time. In World War Part the 1st, the slogan at the time was that we were fighting for "peace everlasting and prosperity". Later generations didn't give a rat's arse about "peace everlasting and prosperity". To them the old slogan was meaningless. Each successive generation was about other things.

What changes over time is values. Each generation forges its own and dumps those previous.
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#85 RJDiogenes

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Posted 01 September 2017 - 05:19 PM

View PostRJDiogenes, on 20 August 2017 - 11:47 AM, said:

Yes, this is something else the Left Wing has forgotten.  Coincidentally, I just wrote an article on that subject for the University of Richmond, but it doesn't come out until September 1st. In the meantime, people may find this article on CNN of interest.
And here it is, for those who are interested.
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#86 yadda yadda

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Posted 01 September 2017 - 07:14 PM

^ Nice article, RJ. Mr. Davis sounds like a wonderful gentleman, with an admirable goal. The world needs more like him, people willing to invest time and of their soul to mending the silly and truly irrelevant reasons for division mankind invents to hamper and destroy itself.

#87 gsmonks

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Posted 02 September 2017 - 03:48 AM

No matter how hard the powers that be try, you can't erase history. One way or another, the facts will re-emerge.

The Dead Sea Scrolls are such an example. The scrolls were hidden to prevent them from being destroyed. They provide both the evidence that the religion was greatly altered, and that the powers that be were unable to permanently rewrite history in their own image. The same thing had happened before, with El and Asharah, and the fact that God started out as a little stone statue, who had a wife. The powers that be tried playing whack-a-mole with Asherah, but she merged with Venus and eventually reemerged as Mary.

The former led scholars to realise that Josephus had some influence in the writing of the New Testament (there are examples in both the writings of Josephus and the New Testament that demonstrate this), and that it was scholars of the Roman Flavian dynasty that wrote the New Testament.

A parallel example is that of Cornwallis. There are some that claim that removing his statue in Canada's Maritimes is an example of anachronistic thinking, but records show that Cornwallis was known to be a murderous thug in his day, and the evidence is that his past finally caught up with him and bit him on the arse.

The removal of Confederate hardware is not an example of erasing history. To begin with, they are not a part of Confederate history or legacy, as their erections antedated the Civil War by decades. In fact, they embodied an attempt to rewrite history in the Confederate image. Once again, the facts reemerged to bite the buggers on the arse.

McCarthy! I'd all but forgotten about that evil weasel. We used to watch the hearings on television, right to the bitter end. There was cheering in our household when the hearings finally fell apart, but a lot of people were collateral damage, especially actors such as Ed Asner and the guy who played the butler in Hart to Hart with Robert Wagner and Stephanie Powers. Several other actors never worked again.
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#88 sierraleone

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Posted 02 September 2017 - 06:50 AM

View PostRJDiogenes, on 01 September 2017 - 05:19 PM, said:

View PostRJDiogenes, on 20 August 2017 - 11:47 AM, said:

Yes, this is something else the Left Wing has forgotten.  Coincidentally, I just wrote an article on that subject for the University of Richmond, but it doesn't come out until September 1st. In the meantime, people may find this article on CNN of interest.
And here it is, for those who are interested.

That is all most of us who are for justice can hope for, changing minds one by one.
I wouldn't down play the media's ability to change minds (think of Ellen and Will & Grace role in building a budding acceptance of gay and lesbians), but most of us aren't media creators in mass-media.
I wouldn't down play social/political movements, that didn't not often have a majority behind them, that have pushed legislators to create or change laws expanding our legal recognition of humanity dignity, and equality. That is important hard work also. As important as laws are to declaring our rules and values, they are words on a piece of paper that are enforced (or not) by flawed people we authorize to enforce them. (Did you hear about the cop that arrested a nurse, at work, for doing her job, properly? I don't think hate was a factor here, just showing the fragility of laws in protecting civilians).

But what most of us have to enact change is the influence we have on people around us. The guy you wrote about is able to take that to a greater level than the average person, as his job in music involved travel and an interest many people like to talk about.
Not a woe-is-me thing, I know I have some limitations in this regard, of influencing people. Since I was young none in my family have been interested in my interests, and I have found that matches my decade of experience as an adult with other people ;) Even not counting that I am pretty social obtuse I'd say. Just the way my brain is wired I suspect at this point.

I also think if one is not an 'example'/'member' of the group that another has prejudices against, they may just think you are repeating talking points. I remember reading that white-nationalist also have to make exceptions in present day America. Because generally they probably know, even went to school with or work with, at least one non-'white' person. They'll separate that person out and make an exception for them. "she/he is okay". How to break them out of that cognitive dissonance…. Anyways my post is spinning off, I will stop it here :)

Edited by sierraleone, 02 September 2017 - 07:02 AM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#89 sierraleone

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Posted 02 September 2017 - 07:00 AM

View Postgsmonks, on 02 September 2017 - 03:48 AM, said:

No matter how hard the powers that be try, you can't erase history. One way or another, the facts will re-emerge.
...
The removal of Confederate hardware is not an example of erasing history. To begin with, they are not a part of Confederate history or legacy, as their erections antedated the Civil War by decades. In fact, they embodied an attempt to rewrite history in the Confederate image. Once again, the facts reemerged to bite the buggers on the arse.

Recently TYT Politics documented an event where an author, Timothy B. Tyson, gives a speech to people of Charlottesville VA titled "Forum for the Nation: On White Supremacy and Democracy", that demonstrates that erecting the Confederate status was an example of erasing history, an example of hate winning over progress. Some of it I knew about (budding bi-racial democracy after the civil war, and the rise of the KKK and other such groups to kill it), and some of it I did not.
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#90 sierraleone

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Posted 02 September 2017 - 11:02 AM

View PostRJDiogenes, on 20 August 2017 - 11:47 AM, said:

And here it is, for those who are interested.

One thing you did make me think about was how a former Fascist/Neo-Nazi/KKK/White Supremacist/nationalist/separatist would organize a counter-demonstration across from demonstrating people that still hold those views. They may say one-on-one interactions in day-to-day life are best, and that it is best to ignore their rallies (at least one I read thinks that). But if someone wanting to hold a counter-demonstration (because they believe that silence is complicity/consent and/or that we can't ignore fascism like we previously did…) went to them for advice to counter-demonstrate in the most effective way someone, according to a reformed white supremacist… What would the former white supremacist advise to have/include in a demonstration? Not a former white supremacist here of course ;) but I wonder if the advise might be along the lines of, figure out which people would be ready, willing, and able, to have calm respectful knowledgeable conversations with white supremacists about history and their ideology, or start dialogue about other things. Then outfit those people with T-Shirts that maybe says things like:
Topical:
"Ask me about the history of confederate statues."
"Ask me about the IQ difference between races." (or whatever other pseudo-science the white supremacist are pushing).
"Ask me about racial facts and myths."
"Ask me about non-whites contributions to America."
"Ask me about my demonstration/group."
"Tell me about your demonstration/group."
Generic:
"Lets start a conversation."
"My interests include X, X, X, & X."
"Come to X public event on X." (preferable a public event that, if not about diversity, should just have diversity by virtue of the communities it is serving)
Other convictions:
"Ask me about Romans 13:8." (or other holy book passage special to the wearer)
(Or a creative secular/atheist version of the above, a particular constitutional amendment, about ones commitment to equality, etc.)
Personal:
"Ask me how racism affects me."
"Ask me about my family history."
"Tell me why you think you are right."
"Tell me how racism affects you."
Quirky:
"I have a delicious old family recipe that I'll share."
Brave and riskier, in such context:
"Willing to exchange phone numbers/email with anyone."
"Ask me about my same-sex relationship/parents."
"Ask me about my relationship with…. God /Jesus /Allah /Buddha /Akal Murat /Yahweh /Goddess-Wicca /Mother Earth /Flying Spagetti Monster /Agnosticism /Atheism /X."

You would have to be particular though, about who would be wearing them (and matching statement to person), and I would recommend some training/guidance, which is done for other non-violence movements/demonstrations as well. Like I said, they have to be ready, willing, and able, to do this kind of work. While this work is important, it can also be dangerous, depending on who's path they cross. I think it would be best if the people doing such were highly conscientious, and able to read people's body language/etc real well.

Depending on the T-Shirt/person they might be willing to wear it in day-to-day life too.

Edited by sierraleone, 02 September 2017 - 11:25 AM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#91 gsmonks

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Posted 02 September 2017 - 02:19 PM

Peter Lorre was often typecast playing gay parts as far back as the 1930's, and in the silent 20's, not only were their actors playing gays, and gay actors, but there was acceptance of gays and lesbians in those days. There were also nude scenes in movies in the early film days- Clara Bow, Hedy Lamarr, 50 of the girls in the Zigfield Follies troupe to name a new.

There were also gay and lesbian films in the 20's. Michael (1924) and Sex In Chains (1928) are two that have survived.

So, Ellen and Will & Grace breaking new ground? Not really. It's that acceptance comes and goes.
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#92 sierraleone

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Posted 03 September 2017 - 10:37 AM

Here is some erasing history I think we can all agree on and get behind:
'Sometimes people change': Maryland shop covers up racist tattoos for free
:)

Edited by sierraleone, 03 September 2017 - 03:39 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#93 RJDiogenes

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Posted 03 September 2017 - 05:34 PM

View Postyadda yadda, on 01 September 2017 - 07:14 PM, said:

^ Nice article, RJ. Mr. Davis sounds like a wonderful gentleman, with an admirable goal. The world needs more like him, people willing to invest time and of their soul to mending the silly and truly irrelevant reasons for division mankind invents to hamper and destroy itself.  
Yes, indeed. This is really the only way to do it in the long term. I wish more people knew about this guy.

View Postsierraleone, on 02 September 2017 - 06:50 AM, said:

That is all most of us who are for justice can hope for, changing minds one by one.  
Exactly. Unfortunately, most of what we see these days is posturing on social media, which only serves to further divide and alienate people.  But changing one mind at a time, not only cures that person, but has the ripple effect of touching their friends, relatives, acquaintances, children.

Quote

Not a woe-is-me thing, I know I have some limitations in this regard, of influencing people. Since I was young none in my family have been interested in my interests, and I have found that matches my decade of experience as an adult with other people ;) Even not counting that I am pretty social obtuse I'd say. Just the way my brain is wired I suspect at this point.  
It doesn't always happen quickly.  I had all these fights with my conservative Irish-Catholic family back in the 60s and 70s and they seemed hopeless-- but most of them now have mellowed considerably after all these decades. Not just because of what I've said, but because of how I've lived. They've seen the contributions I've made to society and they've seen that it's a better way-- so it's very important to walk the walk and not just talk the talk.

View Postsierraleone, on 02 September 2017 - 11:02 AM, said:

You would have to be particular though, about who would be wearing them (and matching statement to person), and I would recommend some training/guidance, which is done for other non-violence movements/demonstrations as well. Like I said, they have to be ready, willing, and able, to do this kind of work. While this work is important, it can also be dangerous, depending on who's path they cross. I think it would be best if the people doing such were highly conscientious, and able to read people's body language/etc real well.  
This is a much better idea than baseball bats and mace.

View Postgsmonks, on 02 September 2017 - 02:19 PM, said:

Peter Lorre was often typecast playing gay parts as far back as the 1930's, and in the silent 20's, not only were their actors playing gays, and gay actors, but there was acceptance of gays and lesbians in those days. There were also nude scenes in movies in the early film days- Clara Bow, Hedy Lamarr, 50 of the girls in the Zigfield Follies troupe to name a new.

There were also gay and lesbian films in the 20's. Michael (1924) and Sex In Chains (1928) are two that have survived.

So, Ellen and Will & Grace breaking new ground? Not really. It's that acceptance comes and goes.
This is why I'm fascinated with the Roaring 20s and pre-Code cinema:  It reminds me so much of the times I grew up in.

View Postsierraleone, on 03 September 2017 - 10:37 AM, said:

Here is some erasing history I think we can all agree on and get behind:  
Oh, yeah, I remember reading about this guy or somebody like him.  This is a truly solid way of making a contribution to society.  Much more constructive than mewling about white privilege or cultural appropriation on Facebook.
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#94 gsmonks

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Posted 04 September 2017 - 11:50 AM

It wasn't just the 20's, RJ. The bra wasn't really invented until 1913, and it was common to see a woman's nipples through clothing. Women used to wear very sheer blouses, especially in church, of all places. In the 50's and early 60's, no one batted an eye if a woman was breast-feeding. Not like today, when every pin-head has to make an issue of it.

Acceptance of gays and lesbians was a given in Europe, especially in Paris, Berlin, Hamburg, Rome, you name it. They were part of the "in" crowd in those days. The trend itself had been around since the 1880's.

This seems to have been a cyclical phenomenon that occurred a century earlier in the 1700's, and a century before that in the 1600's. There were lots of gay actors (and sexuality and nudity) in Shakespeare's time, and there were a correspondingly large number of gay parts for them to play, three of them in Hamlet alone.
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#95 RJDiogenes

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Posted 04 September 2017 - 04:10 PM

Oh, yes, there have been various cycles throughout history and across cultures where more liberal thinking has come to the fore. There was even a liberal counterculture in Victorian England. I just happen to have a special fascination with the 20s and 30s in that regard, because I noticed the parallels when I was a kid.
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#96 gsmonks

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Posted 04 September 2017 - 07:09 PM

Yes, and as part of my 19th century music studies, Victorian counterculture was covered primarily because of women composers of the day, especially Ethel Smyth:



Ethel Smyth also figured prominently in the Suffragette movement. She had a very long life and career (1858-1944), and picked up where Clara Schumann and Fanny Mendelssohn left off. There were many gay/lesbian people in the arts from ca 1820 to ca 1930 who were part of the "in" crowd, especially in the worlds of poetry, classical music, ballet, opera, literature. If you read their biographies, each one reads like a who's who, as they all knew one another, and hung out together to socialise and discuss their various arts and crafts.
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