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Trump's Pardons


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#1 sierraleone

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Posted 25 August 2017 - 09:42 PM

Trump first pardon has apparently been issued.

It is not the earliest pardon done by a President, the last to do any pardons this early was George HW Bush Aug 14th, 1989, though he wasn't new to the White House having been Reagan's VP for 8 years.

This pardon was for Sheriff Joe Arpaio, who was a strong and vocal Trump supporter during the campaign. Joe Arpaio was found guilty of criminal contempt last month for disregarding a court order in a racial profiling case.

It appears that Trump did not consult with the Justice department.

Edited by sierraleone, 25 August 2017 - 09:43 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#2 yadda yadda

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 12:09 AM

Who's up next, the Charlottesville road killer? A bunch of those redneck Mississippi church burners from the sixties? Charlie Manson to fill the Chief Strategist role that Bannon abandoned? All just doin' their jobs  and serving their Lord.

Edited by yadda yadda, 26 August 2017 - 12:10 AM.


#3 gsmonks

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 02:40 AM

This pardon won't stand, nor will any that follow. As before, with Trump's attempts to subvert the law, the Supreme Court will overrule him.
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#4 Omega

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 10:26 AM

It's not clear at all that anyone can override a Presidential pardon. You would have to argue that one of the 27 amendments indirectly limits pardon power, or that Trump is not actually President.

#5 sierraleone

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 10:48 AM

ETA: IIUC Pardons generally fall under one of the following: to provide mercy, to correct a miscarriage of justice, and/or on more general grounds of based on public policy.

I came across some reflective commentary on this. It was talking about more controversial pardons, those regarding rebellion and traitors (the PA Whisky Rebellion, Reconstruction-era pardons for Confederate-South), as well as Nixon…. They could be consider as ones endeavouring to show mercy/forgiveness in attempt to forgive and reconcile, to heal divisions/put them behind us, and move forward/bring us together, so a combination of the mercy/public policy. (Public policy of healing and moving forward, as opposed to agreeing with the deeds).

They argue that Trump's pardon is the exact opposite. Trump isn't doing this because he is forgiving Joe Arpaio, but because he agrees with and supports Joe Arpaio's criminal acts. He isn't doing this to heal divisions in this country or bring/move people forward/together, but to solidify his base and further divide Americans. So, Trump is clearly not acting in good faith in this pardon. Which will surprise few. What Trump seems to want to do is reconciling the law with his whims and desires….

Edited by sierraleone, 26 August 2017 - 11:13 AM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#6 Cait

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 01:01 PM

View Postsierraleone, on 26 August 2017 - 10:48 AM, said:

So, Trump is clearly not acting in good faith in this pardon. Which will surprise few. What Trump seems to want to do is reconciling the law with his whims and desires….

#45 is testing his pardon power.  He wants to see what he can get away with, and what kind of backlash will ensue.  He's practicing for the eventual Russia indictments. It sends a message, to any co-conspirators in the Russia Investigation, not to worry, he'll pardon them no matter what.  It takes any leverage from Mueller to get someone to flip on #45.

What bothers me most is that he is now a complete autocrat.  I mean, this is us now.  We're ruled by a guy who thinks he can do whatever he wants, and no one can stop him.  And, no one has stopped him.  I think it's delusional to think anyone can.  Every day he puts people in place to take over the government.  We all rely on "our vote" in 2018, but I have severe doubts than any honest election will ever take place again.

He doesn't care what the courts say or do, he'll use whatever power he has to do, what to most of us is unthinkable.  Arpaio is the last person who should have ever received a pardon.  He was in contempt of a court order.  That's what he was convicted of, actually defying a court order.  That is contempt of the law, and #45 has just signaled that he doesn't care about the law.  That he is above the law.

The rule of law is under attack, our Justice department is under attack, our press is under attack, our judiciary is under attack, and yet everyone is pretty complacent about all the signs that we've experienced a coup.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#7 Cait

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 01:06 PM

https://www.washingt...m=.53bac1e6f841

Good op-ed on this...

Quote

The broader question raised by the pardon, then, is where Trump would draw the line. If he’s willing to pardon Joe Arpaio for ignoring a court order in service of a political goal Trump embraces, why wouldn’t he pardon another individual he respects for similarly ignoring a demand from the court. Say, a former employee or a family member who, say, was issued a subpoena to testify before a special prosecutor?

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#8 sierraleone

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 01:36 PM

View PostCait, on 26 August 2017 - 01:01 PM, said:

#45 is testing his pardon power.  He wants to see what he can get away with, and what kind of backlash will ensue.  He's practicing for the eventual Russia indictments. It sends a message, to any co-conspirators in the Russia Investigation, not to worry, he'll pardon them no matter what.  It takes any leverage from Mueller to get someone to flip on #45.

Yep. I've heard that well, Trump doesn't understand that this means those pardoned can't pledge the 5th. So what, they get put in contempt of court/congress, then what is stopping Trump from pardoning them for that?

View PostCait, on 26 August 2017 - 01:01 PM, said:

What bothers me most is that he is now a complete autocrat.  I mean, this is us now.  We're ruled by a guy who thinks he can do whatever he wants, and no one can stop him.  And, no one has stopped him. I think it's delusional to think anyone can.  Every day he puts people in place to take over the government.  We all rely on "our vote" in 2018, but I have severe doubts than any honest election will ever take place again. He doesn't care what the courts say or do, he'll use whatever power he has to do, what to most of us is unthinkable.

The Republicans in Congress and the Senate together could…. But that requires a modicum of integrity, ethics, and putting country before party/donors.

View PostCait, on 26 August 2017 - 01:01 PM, said:

Arpaio is the last person who should have ever received a pardon.  He was in contempt of a court order.  That's what he was convicted of, actually defying a court order.  That is contempt of the law, and #45 has just signaled that he doesn't care about the law.  That he is above the law.

I know, its horrible bad. Arpaio is guilty of defying a court order to reprimand/correct how he acted while a law enforcement officer when he 'enforced' the 'law' unlawfully!
Law and order my behind.

Quote

The rule of law is under attack, our Justice department is under attack, our press is under attack, our judiciary is under attack, and yet everyone is pretty complacent about all the signs that we've experienced a coup.

It Congressional/Senate Republicans won't do anything it leaves narrow options for regular people, who still have to spend much of their waking time making a living/managing their households. I am not trying to excuse, it is just hard for most people, living pay-check to pay-check, to dedicate much money/time to other causes, it is just a reality.

ETA: I remember reading the news of unrest in Venezuela, at the unrest there. I took the estimate number of protests in the street and looked at the wider population in the capital, and I think, IIRC, I figured about 3% were in the streets. That is a lot of course, but apparently not enough to effect the change those people wanted. Of course taking to the streets some could argue is not the most effective way to enact change, but if one has little meaningful institutional access one will use the means available to them. But even in their severe situation, ~3% of people publicly demonstrated.

Problematically Trump still enjoys a lot of republican support. I am worried that even if he gets forced from office, even by legitimate means, that it will not reduce tension/division in America at all….

Edited by sierraleone, 26 August 2017 - 01:56 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#9 sierraleone

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 01:54 PM

View PostCait, on 26 August 2017 - 01:06 PM, said:


Well that was depressing. I mean I knew most of what was in there, but this I didn't think about before, in relation to pleading the 5th:

Quote

That said, though, the protection against self-incrimination also applies to state crimes. So Trump could pardon someone — let’s say Flynn, for the sake of this example — and Flynn could then still assert his Fifth Amendment rights if he thought his testimony might result in criminal charges in the state of Virginia (or wherever).

However, it does suggest that the President can't give a pardon for state-level crimes, so if they have evidence for things illegal on both the federal and state level they could pursue justice thru the state.

Edited by sierraleone, 26 August 2017 - 01:55 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#10 Cait

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 03:20 PM

I think that the corruption of this Administration and Congress makes the Federal government useless to the American people.  I really do.  Our States are going to have to be where our recourse lies.  I live in California and my state is already preparing itself for challenging the Feds in court.  I think all the states are going to have to rely on themselves in order to protect the, you know, actual people.

I am not optimistic.  I have never seen this kind of absolute corruption before, and I know people are relying on the other branches to do something, but they don't realize that inch by inch all our recourse is being taken away at the Federal level.  The "it can't happen here", is blinding people to what IS happening here.

That 35% base is running things, not the majority.  What we have is the tyranny of the minority, and a tyrannical autocrat who believes he can do anything he wants and no one can stop him.  Everyone else is playing by the rules [Committees, Mueller, FBI, CIA, etc,], but #45 isn't.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#11 Cait

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 03:21 PM

Oh, and I will never forgive Republicans for nurturing this monster.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#12 sierraleone

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 04:09 PM

View Postsierraleone, on 26 August 2017 - 01:36 PM, said:

I've heard that well, Trump doesn't understand that this means those pardoned can't pledge the 5th. So what, they get put in contempt of court/congress, then what is stopping Trump from pardoning them for that?

I just belatedly realized it doesn't even have to get as far as them pleading the 5th. That assumes they are giving testimony. What if they just refuse to even come in for testimony, or provide documents when required by law? The recourse of the law/courts/congress is holding them in contempt as I understand it. They may be able to issue a warrant for documents, and you may even be able to take someone into custody and bring them before a court/congress… but forcing them to testify or answer questions you can not.

And that is what Trump pardoned Joe Arpaio for, contempt. So all the people who could end up under Mueller's microscope…. What mechanism is there to try to get them to co-operate? None that Trump can't do away with, and he has just demonstrated he is willing to do that.

ETA:

View PostCait, on 26 August 2017 - 03:20 PM, said:

I am not optimistic.  I have never seen this kind of absolute corruption before, and I know people are relying on the other branches to do something, but they don't realize that inch by inch all our recourse is being taken away at the Federal level.  The "it can't happen here", is blinding people to what IS happening here.

Heck, I know there isn't a precedent, but isn't pardoning someone for contempt a kind of taking away the power of the Judicial branch? I know someone could argue that for all pardons, but, for the most part, how they have been used before was for mercy, to correct an miscarriage of justice by the judicial branch, and/or on general grounds to to further legitimate public policy.

But this pardon? Take away a mechanism of the judicial branch to get someone to co-operate with their legal request for documents/testimony or to follow a court ruling/order? At least when it is to the benefit of the President in the on-going investigations into him and associates….

Edited by sierraleone, 26 August 2017 - 04:27 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#13 Cait

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 04:33 PM

It's definitely castrating the Judicial Branch, but it will also hamstring Mueller.  He has no leverage to get people to flip.  That's the real message.  Mueller can't leverage testimony with a deal.  They all think they will be pardoned, even if indicted.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#14 gsmonks

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 05:28 PM

In some ways this is going to turn out to be a golden age in US history. Why? Because all of this corruption was there before. All that's happening is that it is being unmasked for what it is.

As I said before, the Republican party is the Confederate flag of US politics. Who is the most likely type of person to buy a Confederate flag? I've seen many a Confederate flag hanging in the window of drug dealers, bikers, criminals of various stripes, poor white trash who have some vague notion that the Confederate flag is simply a symbol of rebellion. And who is most likely to vote Republican, by sheer numbers? Poor white trash who don't know any better, who have some vague notion that the Republican party represents some vague kind of rebellion against the status quo. Meanwhile, the Confederate flag represents something else entirely.

The Republicans are a corrupt-minded lot whose only concern is coming to power and holding on to it. Think of all the countless times they've said, "We can't allow the Democrats to run our country," and countless variations thereof. All that's on their pea-brains right now is holding on to power, to the exclusion of all else.

The Republicans have a nasty authoritarian interpretation of democracy that includes turning the clock back to the mid-19th century, when non-whites were kept in their place, women had no rights, and an intractable Christian mind-set allowed for the abuse of women, children, non-whites, the genocide of the native population, and the celebration of the authoritarian mentality.
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#15 Omega

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 08:02 PM

The thing about Trump pardoning someone for contempt if they refuse to cooperate with Mueller is that it only works once. After the pardon the order can just be reissued and trigger a second separate contempt charge. He can't pardon people for things they haven't done yet.

#16 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 07:59 PM

Well it's not like President Trump pardoned someone like Oscar Lopez, or a traitor like Chelsea Manning.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

The last republican leaning independent on this message board. All others have been silenced and driven off, or outright banned. Only ONE remains. I guess HighLander had it right all along....In the end, there can be only ONE.

#17 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 08:01 PM

View Postgsmonks, on 26 August 2017 - 02:40 AM, said:

This pardon won't stand, nor will any that follow. As before, with Trump's attempts to subvert the law, the Supreme Court will overrule him.


Sorry to disappoint you, but Presidental pardon power is absolute. It can't be reversed, or overturned. No pardon, from any President, can.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

The last republican leaning independent on this message board. All others have been silenced and driven off, or outright banned. Only ONE remains. I guess HighLander had it right all along....In the end, there can be only ONE.

#18 sierraleone

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 08:04 PM

View PostOmega, on 26 August 2017 - 08:02 PM, said:

The thing about Trump pardoning someone for contempt if they refuse to cooperate with Mueller is that it only works once. After the pardon the order can just be reissued and trigger a second separate contempt charge. He can't pardon people for things they haven't done yet.

Does double-jeopardy not apply to contempt? The fact we are having to even discuss this is kind of appalling…

I know that Joe Arpaio was held in contempt as he violated a court order to cease racial profiling… And as he is no longer Sheriff it is not like he can commit the same crime that eventually led to his contempt charge, so he can't be held in contempt again. Unless he wants to be charged for impersonating a law enforcement officer instead :p

At what point does holding/charging someone in contempt become a *new* charge, when it is for the regarding contempt for the same body (court/congress) in the same way?

The court/congress compels someone to testify/produce documents, they refuse, court/congress hold them in contempt, Trump pardons…. If the courts/congress are asking someone for a subsequent time to testify/produce documents in the same way/regarding the same thing, but just at a different time, that doesn't run into double jeopardy problems? Is contempt held different from other crimes? Even though they have the right to pledge the 5th? Does it depend on whether it is civil contempt or criminal contempt?
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#19 sierraleone

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 08:05 PM

Won't this strengthen civil cases, such as lawsuits, against Joe Arpaio? To accept a pardon you have to admit guilt as I understand it.
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#20 sierraleone

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Posted 28 August 2017 - 08:11 PM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 28 August 2017 - 07:59 PM, said:

Well it's not like President Trump pardoned someone like Oscar Lopez, or a traitor like Chelsea Manning.

Do you endorse this pardon of Joe Arpaio? If so, what do you know about Joe Arpaio and his actions that make him worthy of a pardon in your opinion?

Edited by sierraleone, 28 August 2017 - 08:11 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


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