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#81 RJDiogenes

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Posted 26 November 2019 - 07:06 PM

Tough competition.  That's my favorite episode of DS9.
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#82 FarscapeOne

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Posted 26 November 2019 - 07:40 PM

They should have been co-winners.  They each were extraordinary episodes in their own way... they could almost be considered the exact opposites and inverse of each other.

#83 Virgil Vox

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Posted 23 December 2019 - 11:16 AM

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Hmm. A peaceful democracy turned into a fascist regime by the secret manipulations of a hostile foreign power. Just one of several ways that B5 was prophetic.  Hopefully reality won't be quite so extreme.

It is rather weird that B5 (and the Trek books during the Typhon Pact and The Fall era) seemed to predict so much of what is happening right now in real world politics.

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This episode felt like it was about eight hours long.  It was exhausting.

It did, but a good kind of exhausting. I didn't want it to end, honestly.  

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Yes, that was a great moment for Corwin.

Yes it was. He seems to have disappeared now since the action has moved to the War Room but I hope he pops back up again.

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Pretty much how it was for you.  I think I watched it every night for at least a week.  :lol:

I can't say I blame you. I've watched it twice now.

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So what was that pivotal moment for Sheridan that I keep mentioning?  It was the scene where he decided to declare independence from Earth. Everybody is sitting around the meeting table, discussing and shouting and talking over each other, and as the whirlwind of voices spins around him, the camera closes in on Sheridan's face and you can just see him make that decision without even a word.  Boxleitner did an unexpectedly great job on this show, and that is the one moment that really demonstrated how much talent the guy really has and how much he put into playing that character.

QFT. That was a great scene and you know it wasn't easy for Sheridan to make that decision because he has always been loyal and he does believe the uniform stands for something.

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And this episode won the Hugo Award.  It beat out DS9's "THE VISITOR" that year.

It deserved to win and I am glad it did.

It does make me sad that B5 doesn't seem to be as well known or regarded as a lot of other sci-fi series. It may get off to a slow start but it keeps building and getting better and better.

Ceremonies of Light and Dark

Ceremonies of Light and Dark feels like a transition episode between the old and the new. The status quo has been completely shattered and things are literally never going to be the same.

The big plot is that the remaining Night Watch members have a plan to get rid of the Minbari war ships and that plan involves kidnapping Delenn. Which they do. It is actually a smart plan and it might have worked.

I have two problems with this part of the episode. The first is that I was expecting the Night Watch to continue to be a thorn in Sheridan’s side for at least the rest of the season. Instead they are all taken down by the end of the episode.

The second is that the Night Watch members are cartoonishly evil. These aren’t nuanced characters that we can at least understand why they would be on Clark’s side. Instead they are evil thugs and psychopaths. They just weren’t interesting and I was glad when they were all taken down.

Londo has an amazing scene where he poisons Refa to convince him to part ways with Morden. It seems as if the Centauri have expanded their conquests in multiple directions, stretching their forces thin. Of course they are backed up by the Shadows but we learned that the Shadows are backing a lot of races. Londo wants Refa to convince the Emperor to stop fighting so many wars.

He played Refa brilliantly and his use of a poison that has two components is pretty brilliant. Whether Refa actually abandons his alliance with the Shadows remains to be seen but at least Londo is trying to atone for his sins.

The AI plot was just totally random. I guess it was just there as a comedic plot since the episode didn’t do anything with it. I liked the fact that they addressed the need to wipe the computer and put in new codes so that Earth couldn’t take over their systems. That was smart. I thought that the AI plot would have actually gone somewhere but instead it was basically a few scenes of comedy and not even great comedy.

Delenn might not have gotten her rebirth ceremony but the main B5 officers going into her hospital room to confess a secret was an emotional scene. Franklin admits he has a problem though he doesn’t say it has to do with stims. Garibaldi says he is afraid for the day when he loses control of himself. In an extremely sad scene Ivanova says she was in love with Talia.

The new uniforms are nice though I liked the Earthforce uniforms. It is a nice visual way to show that big changes have happened and are going to continue to happen.

Marcus gets some badass moments here where he wipes out an entire bar trying to get information about Delenn’s whereabouts. He also reveals why he became a Ranger and it is a pretty tragic back story.

Lennier reveals that he is in love with Delenn even though he knows she won’t reciprocate. He says his love is more pure and I say the guy is in major denial. I would be shocked if he didn’t confess his feelings before the end of the series.

This was a good episode that could have been better with more nuanced villains and by dropping the AI plot. Still, it showed the problems facing B5 now that they have broken away from EarthGov and cemented the fact that nothing will be the same.

Sic Transit Vir

Well, that was an episode.

This is a Vir focus episode and also something of a comedic episode (which makes sense because the last several episodes have been dark and depressing with weighty themes) but it has a tonal shift towards the end and the two parts don’t really fit. Plus Londo and Vir have moments that are out of character for them.
The comedy starts early on with Ivanova having a dream where she shows up in C&C naked. Soon after Vir hears a joke about angry Narns being locked in a room only to go to his room which is filled with angry Narns. (I honestly thought thiswas another dream sequence). Londo has a comedic scene where he is battling bugs that are infesting his quarters.

Vir tries to get help from Ivanova concerning sex and we learn Centauri have six levels of sex. There was also the minister telling Vir not to let Londo re-write his reports which was funny and a nice callback.

It isn’t all gut busting funny but I chuckled (especially at Londo with the bugs) and I appreciated a lighter episode after the gloom and doom. I also didn’t mind Lyndisty, Vir’s sickly sweet new bride-to-be. The same with the really cute date Sheridan and Delenn went on. It was all working for me.

The revelation that Vir has been using his position as ambassador to Minbar to smuggle Narns off their home world and declare them dead so that they can start new lives was a little shocking but makes sense. It is totally something Vir would do.

Londo’s reaction bothered me. When he first thought Vir was responsible for 2,000 Narn deaths he is extremely happy. Now Londo has no love for the Narns and would gladly see G’Kar dead but he isn’t genocidal. He was horrified at what the Centauri did to the Narn home world and he has been working to stop the influence of the Shadows and to slow down the Centauri war of expansion. I just don’t buy him congratulating Vir on a good start with 2,000 dead Narns.

Then there is Lyndisty. We learn that her father is basically a huge war criminal who has “purified” thousands of Narns, including whole villages. Lyndisty has witnessed and apparently taken part in these atrocities. She views Narns as little more than animals. She is someone that Vir should reject outright and yet he doesn’t. Sure at the end he expresses hope that she can change but she makes it clear that she probably won’t. He then shrugs her war crimes and genocidal tendencies off as normal relationship ups and downs. It doesn’t fit with Vir nor does it fit with the more comedic tone of the episode. It is a weird way to more or less end the episode.

Then there is the problem that we never learn what happened to the Narn that Lyndisty had tied up in Vir’s quarters. She was going to kill him but decided to let Vir have that honor. I know Vir wouldn’t kill the Narn but the fact that the Narn is never mentioned again is just strange.

The episode at least ends on a hopeful notes as Ivanova takes over Vir’s fake Centauri diplomat identity (Abrahmo Lincolni) with the intent to save as many Narn as possible.
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#84 Christopher

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Posted 23 December 2019 - 11:56 AM

View PostVirgil Vox, on 23 December 2019 - 11:16 AM, said:

It is rather weird that B5 (and the Trek books during the Typhon Pact and The Fall era) seemed to predict so much of what is happening right now in real world politics.

Not really, because it's all happened before. Fascists always use the same playbook. Those works of fiction, and others like It Can't Happen Here, several post-WWII Superman radio storylines, and V, looked at what happened in history and cautioned that it could happen again if we forgot the lessons of the past. Unfortunately, too many of us did forget, and so those anti-democratic forces that have been present all along were able to grow stronger again.



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It does make me sad that B5 doesn't seem to be as well known or regarded as a lot of other sci-fi series. It may get off to a slow start but it keeps building and getting better and better.

It seemed to have a huge, passionate fanbase at the time and was pretty influential. It was as revolutionary in its way as Star Trek was in the '60s. So I'm surprised its popularity hasn't endured. Maybe it was the weakness of its various sequel attempts that turned people off, or maybe it's just that so much that's come after it has surpassed it in terms of production values and storytelling. Star Trek sort of had the advantage that most of what followed it in SFTV for the next two decades was pretty crappy, so it didn't really have anything to overshadow it. But there was a lot of strong, excellent SFTV following B5 and building on its precedents, so maybe to many people it seems like a crude prototype for what followed.



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The second is that the Night Watch members are cartoonishly evil. These aren’t nuanced characters that we can at least understand why they would be on Clark’s side. Instead they are evil thugs and psychopaths. They just weren’t interesting and I was glad when they were all taken down.

Fascism is basically psychopathic, abusive behavior applied to politics, gaining power at others' expense through coercion, threats, and lies. So it does tend to attract thugs and psychopaths. Its followers in real life often do come off as cartoonishly evil. So that's realistic, even if it isn't all that dramatically engaging.


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In an extremely sad scene Ivanova says she was in love with Talia.

For me, the sad thing was what a timid, token attempt at inclusion it was -- give the two women an ambiguous scene that vaguely implies they may have slept together, then immediately write one of the women out of the show and wait until she's long gone before confirming there were romantic feelings.
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#85 FarscapeOne

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Posted 23 December 2019 - 04:16 PM

Andrea Thompson wanted to be written out.  She wasn't taken just because JMS wanted to do it.

#86 Christopher

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Posted 23 December 2019 - 04:36 PM

I'm not talking about Andrea Thompson, I'm talking about the show's timidity in tiptoeing around LGBT inclusion. They could've always introduced another character to take Talia's place as Ivanova's love interest, but instead they just threw in a token reference well after the fact and never mentioned it again. Given that this was around and after the time that Deep Space Nine did what was then a pretty daring lesbian storyline in "Rejoined," it feels feeble in comparison.
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#87 RJDiogenes

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Posted 23 December 2019 - 07:14 PM

View PostVirgil Vox, on 23 December 2019 - 11:16 AM, said:

It is rather weird that B5 (and the Trek books during the Typhon Pact and The Fall era) seemed to predict so much of what is happening right now in real world politics.  
And in so many specific ways:  The civil war, the culture war of extremist ideologies, the foreign manipulations, the Millennial Generation... probably other stuff that I'm forgetting.

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QFT. That was a great scene and you know it wasn't easy for Sheridan to make that decision because he has always been loyal and he does believe the uniform stands for something.  
Right, it was pretty much the worst position a guy like that could be put in.

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It does make me sad that B5 doesn't seem to be as well known or regarded as a lot of other sci-fi series. It may get off to a slow start but it keeps building and getting better and better.  
It really should have more visibility and a higher profile.

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The second is that the Night Watch members are cartoonishly evil. These aren’t nuanced characters that we can at least understand why they would be on Clark’s side. Instead they are evil thugs and psychopaths. They just weren’t interesting and I was glad when they were all taken down.  
They aren't on Clarke's side at all, they just use Clarke as an excuse to act out and Clarke exploits their barbarism to his own advantage.

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The AI plot was just totally random.  
I don't even remember that.

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In an extremely sad scene Ivanova says she was in love with Talia.  
There's worse to come for Ivanova.  Good thing she's Russian.

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Lennier reveals that he is in love with Delenn even though he knows she won’t reciprocate. He says his love is more pure and I say the guy is in major denial. I would be shocked if he didn’t confess his feelings before the end of the series.  
You will be shocked for entirely different reasons.

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The revelation that Vir has been using his position as ambassador to Minbar to smuggle Narns off their home world and declare them dead so that they can start new lives was a little shocking but makes sense. It is totally something Vir would do.  
Vir is the Schindler of the Centauri.

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I just don’t buy him congratulating Vir on a good start with 2,000 dead Narns.  
I think Londo is struggling with himself.
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#88 Virgil Vox

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Posted 31 December 2019 - 10:22 PM

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Not really, because it's all happened before. Fascists always use the same playbook. Those works of fiction, and others like It Can't Happen Here, several post-WWII Superman radio storylines, and V, looked at what happened in history and cautioned that it could happen again if we forgot the lessons of the past. Unfortunately, too many of us did forget, and so those anti-democratic forces that have been present all along were able to grow stronger again.

True, but some of the events in B5 and the Treklit books do oddly mirror stuff that is happening right now.

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It seemed to have a huge, passionate fanbase at the time and was pretty influential. It was as revolutionary in its way as Star Trek was in the '60s. So I'm surprised its popularity hasn't endured. Maybe it was the weakness of its various sequel attempts that turned people off, or maybe it's just that so much that's come after it has surpassed it in terms of production values and storytelling. Star Trek sort of had the advantage that most of what followed it in SFTV for the next two decades was pretty crappy, so it didn't really have anything to overshadow it. But there was a lot of strong, excellent SFTV following B5 and building on its precedents, so maybe to many people it seems like a crude prototype for what followed.

True. It probably also didn't help that it took a while for the show to be on a streaming platform. It also takes a while for the show to get truly great. The first season starts off pretty rough and some people might not be willing to sit through those early episodes.

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For me, the sad thing was what a timid, token attempt at inclusion it was -- give the two women an ambiguous scene that vaguely implies they may have slept together, then immediately write one of the women out of the show and wait until she's long gone before confirming there were romantic feelings.

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I'm not talking about Andrea Thompson, I'm talking about the show's timidity in tiptoeing around LGBT inclusion. They could've always introduced another character to take Talia's place as Ivanova's love interest, but instead they just threw in a token reference well after the fact and never mentioned it again. Given that this was around and after the time that Deep Space Nine did what was then a pretty daring lesbian storyline in "Rejoined," it feels feeble in comparison.

Trust me, as a gay sci-fi fan who hates the fact that science fiction is largely a "No Homo" area I am quick to call out token attempts at inclusion (like the apparently blink and you miss it lesbian kiss in the newest Star Wars movie) but this didn't bother me that much. Obviously, I didn't know until now that they never addressed Ivanova's love for Talia again nor gave her another female love interest but for a sci-fi show in the 90s to even imply that one of their characters was gay was a pretty big deal. More so I think than the "Rejoined" story line where it wasn't really Jadzia who was gay but simply expressing feelings for a woman that a previous male host had had.

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I don't even remember that.

I don't blame you. It is a really small and insignificant side-plot that has no point and goes nowhere.

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There's worse to come for Ivanova.  Good thing she's Russian.

Poor Ivanova.

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You will be shocked for entirely different reasons.

Well, that is ominous.

A Late Delivery from Avalon

That was not the kind of episode I was expecting at this point in the season. Sure, the past two episodes have been slow compared to the Earth civil war trilogy of Messages from Earth, Point of No Return, and Severed Dreams but they have still advanced the arc and given us updates on various plots that have been building for a long time.

This episode doesn’t really do any of that. It is about as stand-alone as B5 has been since season 1. The entire episode basically revolves around an Earthforce soldier who has had a break with reality and believes he is King Arthur.

I’m not against a standalone episode but at this point it feels odd after all the build up and craziness. I’m ready to see movement on the main plots, especially what the Shadows are up to.

Maybe if I had felt more invested in the Arthur plot I wouldn’t mind such a frivolous episode. I just wasn’t invested in anything happening here. Oh, it certainly had fun moments. G’Kar and Arthur fighting together and drinking together was a hoot and I liked seeing the fun side of G’Kar again. I also appreciated more Marcus. It seems like he and Franklin are still buddies which makes me happy.

It does feel strange to tie it back into the Earth-Minbari War. It feels like it has been a while since that war has been super important. I realize it still informs the series but I feel like the mystery behind the war and its importance more or less evaporated once Sinclair left.

Arthur’s epiphany at the end and giving the sword to the Lady of the Lake (otherwise known as Delenn) was a great moment.

The Babylon Treaty plot was interesting and I wished we had focused more on that. The treaty seems like something that will have a pretty major impact on the station so the fact that it was relegated to a B-plot felt like a waste.

I did like Garibaldi’s fight with the post office. It was good for a few chuckles and helped show the impact that cutting ties with Earth has on every part of their lives.

I didn’t hate this episode; it just felt oddly placed in the season. Maybe the show wanted a breather before it hits the arc again or maybe JMS just really wanted to fit an Arthurian legend episode into the series and he figured this was the best place for it.

My plan is to finish season 3 this week. Originally I felt I was watching the episodes too fast and wanted to savor the series. However I have now gone to the other extreme and am taking way too long to finish. I will probably take a week or two off and then start watching season 4.
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It's a recession when your neighbor loses his job: it's a depression when you lose yours.
-- Harry S. Truman

#89 Christopher

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Posted 01 January 2020 - 07:48 AM

View PostVirgil Vox, on 31 December 2019 - 10:22 PM, said:

True, but some of the events in B5 and the Treklit books do oddly mirror stuff that is happening right now.


You say "true," but you clearly missed my point. There's nothing odd about it at all, because history repeats itself. The methods used by oppressors and fascists are the same in every generation, because they work. Tyrants and hatemongers observe what their predecessors did and repeat their tactics. Productions like V and Babylon 5 were written by people who knew that what had happened before would happen again if people weren't reminded of the danger. That's the whole point of science fiction as allegory -- to alert people to predictable risks.

So there's nothing odd about the fact that observant writers were able to anticipate what's happening now. The only thing that's odd is that so many of us ignored their warnings and let it happen again anyway.



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It probably also didn't help that it took a while for the show to be on a streaming platform. It also takes a while for the show to get truly great. The first season starts off pretty rough and some people might not be willing to sit through those early episodes.


You could say the same about ST:TNG, though -- it didn't really kick into gear until the third season. For that matter, Farscape's first season was weak compared to the rest. And those shows still have enduring fanbases.




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Obviously, I didn't know until now that they never addressed Ivanova's love for Talia again nor gave her another female love interest but for a sci-fi show in the 90s to even imply that one of their characters was gay was a pretty big deal.

I think part of my problem is that B5's gay inclusion was hyped up as a big deal in the fan community, so that what we got was a disappointment compared to the hype. And it was just the bare minimum -- other shows at the time had gone farther.


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More so I think than the "Rejoined" story line where it wasn't really Jadzia who was gay but simply expressing feelings for a woman that a previous male host had had.

I think that's underselling it. The point was that joined Trill are essentially genderfluid, that it didn't make any difference to Dax or Lenara that Dax's gender had changed in the interim. Also important was the casual way the episode established that it didn't matter to Kira, who clearly saw no reason why Dax couldn't get back with her ex; in her conversation about it with Jadzia, the gender switch never even came up. That matter-of-fact acceptance was a bolder statement than B5's hesitant hinting.

Plus, of course, there's the fact that "Rejoined" actually showed two women sharing a passionate kiss, something that was very daring and controversial at the time -- so much so that some markets cut it out entirely or refused to show the episode. I'd call that much bolder than B5's vague hint that two women had previously been in the same bed before the scene started (which is even less daring than that scene of Kirk putting his boots back on in "Wink of an Eye" decades earlier).
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#90 RJDiogenes

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Posted 01 January 2020 - 05:46 PM

View PostVirgil Vox, on 31 December 2019 - 10:22 PM, said:

Well, that is ominous.  
It's a ways off.  I'll say no more for now.

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I’m not against a standalone episode but at this point it feels odd after all the build up and craziness. I’m ready to see movement on the main plots, especially what the Shadows are up to.  
I felt this way about the movies that they made when the show moved to TNT.  They didn't involve the plots of the main "novel" at all, so I was just restless watching them and was ultimately disappointed.  I have a feeling I'd like them a lot more now if I watched them again (and I do have the DVDs, so....).
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#91 Virgil Vox

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Posted 02 January 2020 - 01:21 AM

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You say "true," but you clearly missed my point.

And you missed my point but I don't feel like debating it.

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You could say the same about ST:TNG, though -- it didn't really kick into gear until the third season. For that matter, Farscape's first season was weak compared to the rest. And those shows still have enduring fanbases.

Well, as you pointed out by the time BSG was airing there were more sci-fi shows on TV and there were a lot more that followed it. TNG aired at a time when there really wasn't any other sci-fi shows on so it was that or nothing. It probably also helped that DS9 started airing during TNG, that there were four TNG movies, and that Star Trek continued as a franchise with other series, movies, and books.

Maybe if B5's spin-offs had been successful it would have more fans now.

Huh, I didn't realize Farscape still had a large fan following.

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I think part of my problem is that B5's gay inclusion was hyped up as a big deal in the fan community, so that what we got was a disappointment compared to the hype. And it was just the bare minimum -- other shows at the time had gone farther.

I can understand that. I wasn't part of that hype and had no expectations and was surprised when the two were shown to be lovers.

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I think that's underselling it. The point was that joined Trill are essentially genderfluid, that it didn't make any difference to Dax or Lenara that Dax's gender had changed in the interim. Also important was the casual way the episode established that it didn't matter to Kira, who clearly saw no reason why Dax couldn't get back with her ex; in her conversation about it with Jadzia, the gender switch never even came up. That matter-of-fact acceptance was a bolder statement than B5's hesitant hinting.


Plus, of course, there's the fact that "Rejoined" actually showed two women sharing a passionate kiss, something that was very daring and controversial at the time -- so much so that some markets cut it out entirely or refused to show the episode. I'd call that much bolder than B5's vague hint that two women had previously been in the same bed before the scene started (which is even less daring than that scene of Kirk putting his boots back on in "Wink of an Eye" decades earlier).

I can see that, and having a same sex kiss was a big deal and I give them credit for that. From my perspective though it felt more like ST wanted to proclaim that it was still a progressive, boundary breaking show without having to actually put in the work or upset fans that might be turned off by a gay character. IIRC, Dax's old flame is never seen again and never mentioned. Jadzia marries Worf, and when Ezri shows up she is attracted to Worf and then Julian. The Trill being genderfluid is never brought up in the series again.

I'm not denying that it wasn't a big moment for Trek; rather that it wasn't as big or daring as they could have gone and it still took them a long time to actually introduce a gay character.

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I felt this way about the movies that they made when the show moved to TNT.  They didn't involve the plots of the main "novel" at all, so I was just restless watching them and was ultimately disappointed.  I have a feeling I'd like them a lot more now if I watched them again (and I do have the DVDs, so....).

As long as they are entertaining I don't think I will mind if they don't involve the main plots. That was my big problem with this episode. It was just there. I didn't really care that much about Arthur and his plight. Maybe on a second re-watch I might re-evaluate the episode.
"You will give the people an ideal to strive towards. They will race behind you. They will stumble. They will fall. But in time, they will join you in the sun. In time, you will help them accomplish wonders."
--Jor-El


It's a recession when your neighbor loses his job: it's a depression when you lose yours.
-- Harry S. Truman

#92 Christopher

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Posted 02 January 2020 - 08:05 AM

View PostVirgil Vox, on 02 January 2020 - 01:21 AM, said:

Well, as you pointed out by the time BSG was airing there were more sci-fi shows on TV and there were a lot more that followed it. TNG aired at a time when there really wasn't any other sci-fi shows on so it was that or nothing.

That's not true. There was a lot more SFTV on the air in the late '80s than there was for most of the '70s. Shows contemporary with TNG in the late '80s included Max Headroom, Friday the 13th: The Series, The Highwayman, The Ray Bradbury Theater, Quantum Leap, Alien Nation, Superboy, War of the Worlds: The Series, Something is Out There, Mystery Science Theater 3000, and the short-lived Probe and Once a Hero. (And several notable shows ended shortly before TNG began, including V, The Twilight Zone, Amazing Stories, Starman, and Knight Rider.) And then in the '90s, during TNG's later years, SFTV exploded still further in quantity and popularity.


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Huh, I didn't realize Farscape still had a large fan following.

I don't know how large it is, but it's passionate. I hear praise of Farscape more often these days than I hear discussions of B5.



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I can see that, and having a same sex kiss was a big deal and I give them credit for that. From my perspective though it felt more like ST wanted to proclaim that it was still a progressive, boundary breaking show without having to actually put in the work or upset fans that might be turned off by a gay character. IIRC, Dax's old flame is never seen again and never mentioned. Jadzia marries Worf, and when Ezri shows up she is attracted to Worf and then Julian. The Trill being genderfluid is never brought up in the series again.

The thing about big first steps is that they always seem inadequate in retrospect. For the time, doing "Rejoined" was incredibly daring. Far more so than the timid, tentative hints B5 tossed in. Like I said, there were stations that literally cut out the kiss from "Rejoined." It was one of the first same-sex kisses in TV history, a very bold  and controversial step to take, and it deserves full credit for that. The fact that later Trek productions failed to follow through on that boldness and push further doesn't detract from how bold it was in itself.

I mean, given what we now know about Rick Berman's active resistance to LGBT inclusion in Trek, it's amazing we got "Rejoined" at all, and the hedges you mention are probably the only reasons Berman was willing to bend on it. That and the fact that it was on DS9, a show that Berman kept looser control over because he was focused on TNG and VGR, and because Ira Steven Behr was good at convincing Berman to let him have his way.


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I'm not denying that it wasn't a big moment for Trek; rather that it wasn't as big or daring as they could have gone and it still took them a long time to actually introduce a gay character.

It's hard to imagine how any show at that time could have gotten away with going any farther. That's the difference between it and B5. We know that a show back then could have gone farther than B5 did, because DS9 did.
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#93 Virgil Vox

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Posted 05 January 2020 - 03:19 PM

Interludes and Examinations

They killed Kosh!

That surprised me greatly. I did not see Kosh dying, at least not yet. The Shadow War has basically just begun and he is dead.

What might be more surprising is that he admitted to Sheridan that he was wrong. The Vorlons should have been fighting the war against the Shadows instead of just hiding out.

Mind you, the Vorlons have been manipulating the younger races for thousands of years to get them ready to defeat the Shadows so they haven’t just been sitting on their encounter suits. We’ve seen Kosh manipulate people and events on and around the station to get the outcome he wanted. In that way the Vorlons are much like the Shadows: acting like puppet masters and getting others to do their dirty work until they are ready to emerge.

Kosh getting angry at Sheridan and using his powers to slam Sheridan around and cut his face was another big surprise. I think this is the most emotional thing we have ever seen Kosh do. Now since I know that Kosh knew he would die if he intervened his reaction makes sense.

Kosh also warns Sheridan about Z’Ha’Dum and says that he won’t be there to help him.

This episode was jam packed with all manner of revelations and culminations of long running plots.

The Shadows have come out of the shadows (bad bun intended) and are waging war against various races in devastating hit and run attacks. Why they are doing this and not capturing territory no one knows.

To make matters worse, everything the Shadows have done so far have left the races with little hope. Earth is under control of a xenophobic madman who won’t help aliens. Babylon 5 can’t do much to save far off planets. Most of the space-faring civilizations were just at war with one another so they are too weak to fight back against the Shadows and don’t trust each other to ask for help. The Centauri have been fighting multiple border wars, weakening them and their neighbors. The Minbari, who have been preparing for this day, are fractured and in no shape to help.

The only ones who can help are the Vorlons and they finally although it costs Kosh his life. They come roaring out of hyperspace and lay waste to the Shadows. This is the victory Sheridan needed to help unite the races into an alliance. He finally has a spark of hope.

You just know that whenever Morden shows up terrible things are going to happen and he doesn’t disappoint. Not only does he help kill Kosh (or at least direct his Shadow minions to kill Kosh), he also manipulates Londo into renewing their agreement.

I was actually surprised that Londo didn’t suspect Morden in Adira’s death. Yes, Morden did a good job of framing Refa and Londo is grieving but I still expected better from him. He usually sees all the angles. Once again Londo has sold his soul and he can’t claim ignorance this time.

Franklin’s addiction to stems finally comes to a head when he almost kills a patient and has a meltdown in the infirmary. With a little help from Garibaldi he realizes that he is an addict and that he can’t keep taking stims and trying to be superhuman. He resigns his post and leaves to try and find balance in his life again.
The ending was sad, with Kosh’s ship flying into the sun.

The Vorlons will be sending another ambassador to B5. I wonder what this Vorlon will be like, and whether he will continue to associate with Lyta.

A fantastic episode with great performances and several stunning surprises that completely caught me off-guard, Interludes feels like another turning point in the series. Once again, things will never be the same.

War Without End Parts 1 and 2

There is a lot to unpack here, isn’t there? I wish I had re-watched Babylon Squared before this two-parter just to refresh myself.

The big thing is that Sinclair returns. It’s not a small cameo, either. He has a large role to play in both episodes.

It was great seeing Sinclair return and getting to see his friends and comrades again. It is sad that he didn’t get to have a meaningful talk with Garibaldi. His message was good but I wanted to see these two old friends together again.

Okay, Sinclair becomes Valen. That was a plot twist I didn’t see coming. It does explain how Valen created his prophecies. He knew what was going to happen because he lived through it.

I wondered whether B4 would arrive in the past or future and now I have my answer. It goes to the past, to aid the Minbari in their war against the Shadows. That final shot with Sinclair as Valen, flanked by two floating Vorlons, was really good.

It is interesting to note that the Shadows would have lost that previous war even without the intervention of B4. The main difference would have been they wouldn’t have lost their fleet so they would be able to more easily win this war as we saw in the glimpse of the future with B5 being overrun.

Speaking of future glimpses, the future Sheridan went to is rather bleak. Yes, they win the war against the Shadows but Centauri Prime is literally on fire. Londo is emperor but he has some parasite on his neck controlling him.

I like that the show is looking beyond the end of the war. As Londo said, roughly, the war might have been won but the mess it left behind was still terrible. It seems that allies of the Shadows are still around and taking their vengeance out on the Centauri. That surprises me since the Centauri were the first major allies of the Shadows.

We also learn that Sheridan and Delenn are married with a son named David. Delenn warns Sheridan not to go to Z’Ha’Dum.

In what was the most unexpected moment we see G’Kar killing Londo just like Londo dreamed but instead of it being two hated enemies it is two friends, one of whom is performing a mercy killing. Then, when both of them are dead Vir shows up and becomes emperor, just like Lady Morella foretold.

I’m surprised at how well everything that unfolds here works within the story set up by Babylon Squared. There really isn’t much bending and twisting to get all the main characters onto B4 and doing what they need to do.

Ivanova gets some great lines as she just can’t cope with the time travel and sheer ridiculousness of what they are doing.

I’m surprised that no Minbari ever recognized B4 as being their ancient battle station, or noted the similarities between it and B5. I know the last Shadow War took place roughly 1,000 years ago but still.

It occurs to me that Delenn has been working from prophecy this entire time to help the war against the Shadows go in their favor. Now, though, she can’t count on prophecy since Sinclair didn’t see what happened after he traveled back in time.

Zathras is a hoot. I hope we see more of him later.

I do think the first episode was stronger than the second. The first episode had the big revelations and surprises whereas the second episode basically just seemed to be filling in the blanks from Babylon Sqaured.

Walkabout

Here we have two main plots to follow: Franklin’s attempt to get over his stim use by going walkabout and Sheridan’s attempt to use telepaths to give them an edge over the Shadows.

Both are good but they make for a strangely disjointed episode.

I’m not sure that I’m entirely okay with the episode saying that Franklin can get over being an addict simply by quitting his job and waking around the station but it is early days yet. He could relapse or something else could happen.

His plot is okay. Cailyn is a good character and the actress was able to make me care about her in her limited screen time. I also liked that her plot somewhat revolved around the plight of the people in Down Below. I have always thought that the show seemed rather cavalier in its attitude towards these people, with Marcus seeming to be the only person who actually cared about them.

I really don’t have much more to say about Franklin’s plot in the episode. I’m glad he is doing better and is confronting the reasons behind his stim abuse. I’m just not sure where they will take this plot.

The other half of the episode is quite good. Sheridan decides to test out the theory that the Shadows can be hurt by telepaths. Luckily Lyta returns to the station and volunteers to help.

Oh, and we get a new Vorlon ambassador, also called Kosh apparently. He is definitely a darker Kosh, not just in looks but also in actions. He strangles Lyta upon meeting her before she can really say anything.

I had wondered what was going on when it seemed like Lyta was transferring some white energy to Kosh and it turns out she carried part of Kosh with her at times. She wasn’t when he died which made new Kosh upset.

It turns out that Sheridan might have a piece of Kosh inside him, which is an interesting wrinkle.

Na’Kal returns, which is a nice callback to season 2.

Hmm, Swedish meatballs can be found in all the sentient races’ cookbooks. Odd.

I liked Garibaldi’s speech to G’Kar that Sheridan and B5 went out of its way to help the Narns and it might be nice to see that favor returned.
It seems as if the Shadows can be hurt by telepaths, or at the least immobilized. It still took everything the White Star had to destroy the Shadow ship.

Once again, we have an exciting space battle with high stakes. Even with the aid of the telepaths, the Shadows are hard to kill. The heroes destroy two ships and only manage to drive the other ships off because they had superior numbers and telepaths.
"You will give the people an ideal to strive towards. They will race behind you. They will stumble. They will fall. But in time, they will join you in the sun. In time, you will help them accomplish wonders."
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#94 RJDiogenes

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Posted 05 January 2020 - 05:50 PM

View PostVirgil Vox, on 05 January 2020 - 03:19 PM, said:

They killed Kosh!  

That was a Hell of a freaky turn of events.

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Now since I know that Kosh knew he would die if he intervened his reaction makes sense.  

Yeah, he didn't want to die and he was scared-- but he still did what he had to do.  That really humanized the character.

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The Shadows have come out of the shadows (bad bun intended)  

:thumbs-up:

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Why they are doing this and not capturing territory no one knows.  

It's all about ideology, not territory. It's one big proxy war.  The galaxy is Vietnam.

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They come roaring out of hyperspace and lay waste to the Shadows.  

Another amazing turn of events.

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The ending was sad, with Kosh’s ship flying into the sun.  

Indeed, another humanizing moment.

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Once again, things will never be the same.  

That happens a lot.  :lol:

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There is a lot to unpack here, isn’t there?  

Yeah, that was another wonderful two-parter.  And it was so great to see Sinclair again, and see his story brought to a satisfying conclusion.

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Okay, Sinclair becomes Valen. That was a plot twist I didn’t see coming. It does explain how Valen created his prophecies. He knew what was going to happen because he lived through it.  

It also gives an sfnal explanation to the earlier revelation that "Minbari souls are being reincarnated in Human bodies."  That was the religious caste's interpretation of finding out that Minbari have Human DNA.

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Speaking of future glimpses, the future Sheridan went to is rather bleak. Yes, they win the war against the Shadows but Centauri Prime is literally on fire. Londo is emperor but he has some parasite on his neck controlling him.

Yeah....

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In what was the most unexpected moment we see G’Kar killing Londo just like Londo dreamed but instead of it being two hated enemies it is two friends, one of whom is performing a mercy killing. Then, when both of them are dead Vir shows up and becomes emperor, just like Lady Morella foretold.  

Yeah....

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I’m surprised at how well everything that unfolds here works within the story set up by Babylon Squared. There really isn’t much bending and twisting to get all the main characters onto B4 and doing what they need to do.  

The whole thing was really an incredibly well-planned novel.

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Zathras is a hoot. I hope we see more of him later.  

Oh, yes, more Zathras. Also Zathras.  Actually, I'm not sure if we do.

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Oh, and we get a new Vorlon ambassador, also called Kosh apparently.  

"We are all Kosh."

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She wasn’t when he died which made new Kosh upset.  

I wonder what happened to his Katra.

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It turns out that Sheridan might have a piece of Kosh inside him, which is an interesting wrinkle.  

Oh, there it is.  :lol:

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Hmm, Swedish meatballs can be found in all the sentient races’ cookbooks. Odd.  

It's amazing how the entire Shadow War hinges on that one small fact.  Just kidding.

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Once again, we have an exciting space battle with high stakes.  
There's one more coming that's even better.  It's more reminiscent of "Severed Dreams."
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#95 Virgil Vox

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Posted 12 January 2020 - 07:48 PM

Grey 17 Is Missing

B5 likes to do episodes with two plots that barely connect with each other. Usually it works. Here, though, you have a plot that moves the story forward and has a lot of great character moments and then you have a plot that is just extremely random and I don’t know why it exists.

To be fair, I was at first intrigued by the idea that an entire level of the station had been forgotten and that something sinister was lurking there. I was going along for the ride and found the actual Grey 17 level to be creepy, especially with that dart shooting doll. Then Robert Englund showed up and I was really excited.

In the end though the entire thing is a mess. The cult that lives down there just wasn’t interesting and the Zarg or whatever it was didn’t feel like a big threat despite the episode telling us it was a big threat. I chuckled at the end when Garibaldi starts to relate his adventure to Sheridan but overall the plot was bad and could have been excised completely.

The other plot, which centered around Delenn becoming the leader of the Rangers, was much more engaging.

I loved that Neroon came back, and his arguments had a certain sense of logic to them. Obviously we the viewers know Delenn and know that she isn’t a fanatic out to seize power. That said, I can easily see why some Minbari would see what Delenn is doing as a huge power grab. She is a member of the religious caste who firmly believes in the prophecies. She created a secret army that is outside the control of the warrior caste. She dissolved the Grey Council. Now she is attempting to become the leader of a large, Minbari/human army.

That’s what I love about this part of the episode. Neroon isn’t really a bad guy. He has genuine concerns about Delenn and wants to see the Rangers under the command of the military caste. The fact that he thinks about killing another Minbari, something that hasn’t happened in 1,000 years, shows just how serious he believes this situation to be.

Lennier’s mental gymnastics to break his promise to Delenn without breaking his promise to Delenn was a sight to behold. It makes sense that he would go to Marcus since he confessed his love for Delenn to the Ranger and he also saw the lengths Marcus went to when Delenn was kidnapped by Nightwatch.

It was hard to watch Marcus get brutalized by Neroon but it was a great, defining moment for Marucs, and possibly Neroon as well. He showed that he was willing to die for Delenn and that is what convinces Neroon that she deserves to be Ranger One.

On the Shadow War front, B5 is trying to recruit telepaths and not having much luck. This leads Ivanova to seek out Franklin since he helped some telepaths escape from Psi-Corps. Franklin agrees to help on the condition that no one seeks him out again until his walkabout is completed.

I still question the idea that the walkabout will magically cure Franklin, especially since he is in such a bad place right now. He is finally feeling the full effects of withdrawal and is hanging out in a seedy bar.

It is hard to judge this episode because the part that deals with Delenn and Neroon is really good whereas the part about the missing level is mediocre.

And the Rock Cried Out, No Hiding Place

Well, that went in surprising directions. I find myself saying that a lot with regards to this show.

It does not pay to piss of Londo, or in the case of Refa it doesn’t pay to be made to look like you did something to piss of Londo.

Seriously, Londo’s plan here was brilliant and I was fooled by it just like Vir. I figured that Londo’s plan couldn’t just be about getting rid of G’Kar but I didn’t realize that getting rid of G’Kar wasn’t part of his plan at all. Instead he laid a trap for Refa which the Centauri lord fell right into.

I’m sure the Narns are happy with their pound of flesh. They got to quite violently kill the man responsible for the bombing of their home world and quite a few other atrocities.

Of course it is ironic that Londo is exacting revenge on a man who is innocent of the crime Londo thinks he committed but it gets rid of Refa so I’ll take it. One less villain on a show that has plenty of them.

I wonder if we will meet the new Centauri emperor. He has been mentioned a lot but never seen.

Sheridan and Delenn discover that there is a pattern to the Shadow attacks. The Shadows are deliberately not attacking an area which is causing refugees to flee there thinking it is safe. I guess when enough people are there the Shadows will attack, killing millions or billions and demoralizing the galaxy.

I had completely forgotten about Brother Theo. It was nice to see him again, and his sarcastic comments made for some nice levity in an otherwise dark episode.

The B5 crew gets some news from home thanks to a few religious men. Unsurprisingly Babylon 5 is being portrayed as traitors who are allying with aliens in an attempt to overthrow Earth. Luckily there is a resistance on Earth that is trying to spread the real news and push back against Clark’s fascist regime.

I will say that Refa’s death taking place while a choir sings a gospel song made for a bold choice and it worked.

Ooh, you know something bad is going to happen since the episode begins with a countdown of 14 days and ends with a countdown of 10. Considering the finale is titled “Z’Ha’Dum” I’m guessing it is counting down until Sheridan makes the fateful trip to the Shadow home world.

The preacher’s advice to Sheridan was quite good. He needs to share his burden with someone even if that person is burdened with things. It could help them both and it does. Sheridan shares his burden with Delenn and she helps find the pattern to the Shadow attacks and takes Sheridan away for some well deserved rest.

Crotchety. Heh.

I love that Londo rescued Vir and punched that guard out.

I quite liked this episode. It managed to balance Londo’s plan with the revelations about the Shadow war and Clark’s regime without any of it feeling out of place.
"You will give the people an ideal to strive towards. They will race behind you. They will stumble. They will fall. But in time, they will join you in the sun. In time, you will help them accomplish wonders."
--Jor-El


It's a recession when your neighbor loses his job: it's a depression when you lose yours.
-- Harry S. Truman

#96 RJDiogenes

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Posted 13 January 2020 - 06:47 PM

View PostVirgil Vox, on 12 January 2020 - 07:48 PM, said:

B5 likes to do episodes with two plots that barely connect with each other. Usually it works. Here, though, you have a plot that moves the story forward and has a lot of great character moments and then you have a plot that is just extremely random and I don’t know why it exists.  

This episode is widely considered to be B5's worst, and it probably is.  But B5's worst is still better than most shows' best.  The forgotten level thing was totally out of left field and, if nothing else, it shows there's plenty of weirdness in the world outside of the major news items-- and it reminded me of the old trope of the hidden 13th floor, which isn't a bad thing.

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I loved that Neroon came back, and his arguments had a certain sense of logic to them. Obviously we the viewers know Delenn and know that she isn’t a fanatic out to seize power. That said, I can easily see why some Minbari would see what Delenn is doing as a huge power grab. She is a member of the religious caste who firmly believes in the prophecies. She created a secret army that is outside the control of the warrior caste. She dissolved the Grey Council. Now she is attempting to become the leader of a large, Minbari/human army.  

The theme of things looking very differently to different people comes up frequently in this show.

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That’s what I love about this part of the episode. Neroon isn’t really a bad guy.  

Neroon is cool.  A very interesting character.

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I still question the idea that the walkabout will magically cure Franklin, especially since he is in such a bad place right now. He is finally feeling the full effects of withdrawal and is hanging out in a seedy bar.  

Why do people always have their walkabouts in seedy bars?  You'd think he'd want to go have a nice massage or something.

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I wonder if we will meet the new Centauri emperor. He has been mentioned a lot but never seen.

You will meet him.  :D

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Unsurprisingly Babylon 5 is being portrayed as traitors who are allying with aliens in an attempt to overthrow Earth.  

There's that theme again.

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I’m guessing it is counting down until Sheridan makes the fateful trip to the Shadow home world.  
Yep, coming up to another pivotal moment.  And an unambiguous message from beyond.
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#97 Virgil Vox

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Posted 04 February 2020 - 06:11 PM

Shadow Dancing

The countdown continues.

The Shadow War really heats up here as Sheridan and Delenn create a giant fleet using the White Stars and ships from League worlds to take the fight to the Shadows and protect the refugees.

The battle itself is pretty amazing. We have a huge fleet comprised of many different kinds of space craft fighting Shadow ships, all directed by Sheridan and Delenn.

I thought it was a good move to have Sheridan directing the battle and using actual tactics instead of it just being a big free for all.

It wasn’t a rousing victory either. It takes a while before a Shadow ship is destroyed, and the allies lose a lot of ships. The look on Sheridan’s face after the battle is over says it all. The Shadows might have retreated, but the battle was hardly a victory.

The other major plot focuses on Franklin as his walkabout comes to an end. He is stabbed and left for dead after trying to rescue a man. He finally meets himself, and finds out that he doesn’t like himself all that much.

These scenes were pretty much perfection, with Richard Briggs bringing his A game to the scene. You can feel the self loathing radiating from him as he chastises himself for constantly running away from his problems.

I wasn’t sure about this walkabout idea but in the end JMS makes it work. We saw Franklin go through withdrawal without going back on stims and here he addresses the underlying issues that caused him to use stims in the first place.

The scene with Franklin and Garibaldi in the hospital was well done. Garibaldi understands what Franklin has gone through because he went through it himself. I also liked the scene between Franklin and Sheridan where Franklin gets his job back.

I think the Minbari tradition of a woman watching a man sleep for three days to see his true face is one of the weirder traditions they have introduced.

Marcus basically reveals his feelings for Ivanova but since he told her in Minbari she has no clue. I’m not sure she would reciprocate his feelings either unless we are to assume she is bi.

“Who wants to live forever?” “I do, actually!” Ivanova and Marcus make for a great pairing.

The episode ends on a pretty good cliffhanger with Anna Sheridan returning while Delenn watches Sheridan sleep. Once she walked into the room I remembered seeing promos featuring her airing way back when. Obviously she is working with the Shadows, but to what purpose?

Sheridan’s Kosh dream is brought back up and dissected. The main takeaway is that Sheridan might have an opposite and equal enemy in the form of the mysterious man in between.

Yet another great episode in season 3 and only one more to go.

Z’Ha’Dum

Here we are at last. The season 3 finale and the end of the countdown. Sheridan has been warned about going to Z’Ha’Dum but he goes anyway because he thinks he can finally put an end to the war.

This really is Sheridan’s episode. The big, epic battle and character moments happened last episode. Now the focus is on Sheridan and how he reacts to Anna and the pitch the Shadows make to him.

Melissa Gilbert was great as Anna. She played evil really well, and you could almost buy what she was selling. She made the Shadows come across as a lot more reasonable and less ultimate evil than they have so far.

We meet the man in the middle, or as he calls himself, a middle-man. His is an older gentleman named Justin and we get basically no background on him. He is just hanging out on the home world of evil and chilling with Morden.

He explains the history between the Shadows and Vorlons. They were two of the ancient races that stayed behind to help guide the younger races. The problem came because they had very different ideas about how best to guide the races. The Vorlons believed in rigid order and compliance, as seen in how the Minbrai behave. The Shadows believe in a kind of Darwinian survival of the fittest, where they pit species against each other and whoever survives will be better for it.

Their plan makes sense with what we have seen of the Shadows so far. They have manipulated the various races into warring with one another and have
themselves launched multiple attacks aimed at just blowing things up and not conquering territory. They want to light the universe on fire and believe that whoever survives has the right to rule.

The twist is that it was the Vorlons who broke the pact. They started interfering on a grand scale and manipulated the younger species into seeing the Vorlons as angels, basically. They turned the races against the Shadows.

I love this spin on the back story. The Shadows are bad and they obviously don’t care if multiple races are wiped out or if billions of beings die yet if the Vorlons hadn’t broken the truce would the Shadows be doing everything that they are right now?

I also like that the Shadows are playing to Sheridan’s need to be a hero. They aren’t telling him to come over to the dark side. Instead they are saying he needs to be their hero, that their vision for the younger races is the correct one.

Obviously Sheridan was never going to agree with them. He knew that Anna had been plugged into a Shadow ship and that the experience had irrevocably changed her. She was no longer his wife. I think he even guessed they might try something like that with him.

This of course leads to the dramatic ending where Sheridan calls down the White Star which is housing some very powerful bombs and blows a good portion of Z’Ha’Dum to hell, including Anna.

He does jump down into a very deep cavern because he heard Kosh’s voice in his head telling him to. I wonder how Sheridan survives this. If I had been watching this when it aired I probably would have thought he was dead. This show hasn’t been shy about killing off or getting rid of other characters, including the original main hero.

The scenes between Sheridan and Delenn were great. He is understandably upset that she and Kosh kept the possibility that Anna might be alive from him because they were afraid he would rush off to Z’Ha’Dum and die. Still, he leaves her a recorded message saying that he loves her.

Garibaldi is captured by the Shadows and seems to be plugged into one of their ships. That isn’t going to end well.

G’Kar’s ending monologue was simply perfect, and the best way to end the episode and the season.

This has been a great season of B5. Everything has worked. All the ground work and preparations done in the first two seasons led up to a thrilling third season where the status quo was upended multiple times. I can’t wait to see what season 4 has in store.
"You will give the people an ideal to strive towards. They will race behind you. They will stumble. They will fall. But in time, they will join you in the sun. In time, you will help them accomplish wonders."
--Jor-El


It's a recession when your neighbor loses his job: it's a depression when you lose yours.
-- Harry S. Truman

#98 RJDiogenes

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Posted 04 February 2020 - 07:10 PM

View PostVirgil Vox, on 04 February 2020 - 06:11 PM, said:

I thought it was a good move to have Sheridan directing the battle and using actual tactics instead of it just being a big free for all.  

That's another thing that I liked about the space battles in B5.  

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I think the Minbari tradition of a woman watching a man sleep for three days to see his true face is one of the weirder traditions they have introduced.  

I think Delenn just makes a lot of this stuff up just to mess with Sheridan.  :lol:

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Marcus basically reveals his feelings for Ivanova but since he told her in Minbari she has no clue. I’m not sure she would reciprocate his feelings either unless we are to assume she is bi.  

Remember this scene for later.

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“Who wants to live forever?” “I do, actually!” Ivanova and Marcus make for a great pairing.  

I'm with Marcus.  He's a great character.  :D

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Melissa Gilbert was great as Anna. She played evil really well, and you could almost buy what she was selling. She made the Shadows come across as a lot more reasonable and less ultimate evil than they have so far.  

Yeah, that was very sad and disturbing.  The ultimate case of Stockholm Syndrome. She drank the cosmic Kool-Aid.

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We meet the man in the middle, or as he calls himself, a middle-man. His is an older gentleman named Justin and we get basically no background on him. He is just hanging out on the home world of evil and chilling with Morden.

Oh, yeah, I forgot about Justin. One of those great, familiar character actors whose name you never remember.

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He explains the history between the Shadows and Vorlons. They were two of the ancient races that stayed behind to help guide the younger races. The problem came because they had very different ideas about how best to guide the races. The Vorlons believed in rigid order and compliance, as seen in how the Minbrai behave. The Shadows believe in a kind of Darwinian survival of the fittest, where they pit species against each other and whoever survives will be better for it.  

This was a great revelation, and will lead to a great moment in the climax. Basically, neither the Vorlons or the Shadows are the good guys-- it's a war between two equally repugnant ideologies, with Humanity caught in the middle.  Another scenario that has become way too familiar.

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He does jump down into a very deep cavern because he heard Kosh’s voice in his head telling him to.

The one unambiguous thing that Kosh ever said:  "Jump!  Jump now!"  :lol:

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This has been a great season of B5. Everything has worked. All the ground work and preparations done in the first two seasons led up to a thrilling third season where the status quo was upended multiple times. I can’t wait to see what season 4 has in store.  
You won't be a bit disappointed.
Please visit The RJDiogenes Store. Posted Image   And my Gallery. Posted Image And my YouTube Page. Posted Image And read Trunkards. Posted Image  And then there's my Heroes Essays.  Posted Image



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