Jump to content


Getting an "Insecure Connection" warning for Exisle? No worry

Details in this thread

STAR TREK: DISCOVERY - S1, E1: "The Vulcan Hello"...

Star Trek: Discovery Star Trek: Discovery: Season 1

  • Please log in to reply
33 replies to this topic

#21 Jorgasnarova

Jorgasnarova
  • Islander
  • 605 posts

Posted 25 September 2017 - 04:30 PM

"The Vulcan Hello" was an acceptable start, a fair "Chapter One" intro to this serial, a better opener than TNG's "Encounter at Farpoint," and compared more or less favorably with the Voyager and Enterprise pilots, but I do think DS9 had the best opener of all the Treks.

"The Vulcan Hello" had superb production values and cast, but the direction was too workmanlike, too pedestrian for my taste resulting in some rather flat line readings at times.  Bryan Fuller evidently thought David Semel was an ill-suited choice to be director of Episode One and perhaps this was a valid criticism.

CBS made an egregious mistake by not airing Episode 2: "The Battle at the Binary Suns," a tighter, better directed follow-up that I found considerably more satisfying.

Remember, Discovery is a serialized "novel for TV" with a definite beginning, middle, and end.  "The Vulcan Hello" was simply Chapter One in a story that runs fifteen chapters.  If I had given up on Frank Herbert's "Dune" after Chapter One I would have missed a good story.

#22 Orpheus

Orpheus

    I'm not the boss of you!

  • Administrator
  • 17,757 posts

Posted 25 September 2017 - 05:21 PM

That seems plausible, but I think Cybersnark's question is: what does a holochat do for Starfleet that a videochat doesn't?

TOS may have wanted actors to play against each other onscreen (as I recall they mostly did recorded transmissions, with few videochats out of respect for the subspace delay thaat, according to Roddenberry, allowed Kirk some of the autonomy of Admiral Horatio Hornblower), but I think it  was, as much as anything, it used video messaging to cater to audience expectations. I've queued up a relevant scene in this 1961 AT&T publicity film. If you watch the whole thing, you'll see a lot of Star Trek's influences, like mockups of wireless telephones that look like chubby flip-top communicators (TOS needed trim ones to preserve the uniform's lines)

We've long had routine videochat (e.g. skype), but audio telephone calls vastly predominate -- except on in SF and some contemporary drama, where it seems few important characters would deign to say goodnight to their kids or blurt their near-dying gasps to HQ by mere audio.

You may be right about their production thinking. I don't know. But ordinary people can/do interact evocatively by audio or flatscreen (or text!) every day. Star Fleet wouldn't use "holographic conversations" except in cases where it could be functionally meaningful. Making it 3D, then grossly degrading the quality detracts from the viewer's ability to see the nuances of an actor's performance. I consider it a poor "gee-whiz" artistic choice.

#23 RJDiogenes

RJDiogenes

    Idealistic Cynic

  • Demigod
  • 13,884 posts

Posted 25 September 2017 - 05:26 PM

I haven't seen it yet.  60 Minutes was still on at 8:30, so I said the heck with it and read in bed. Between what I've read here and what I've heard from other friends, my enthusiasm is pretty much squashed, but I'll probably check it out on Friday anyway (assuming the one-week-free offer is still available).

View PostVirgil Vox, on 24 September 2017 - 11:51 PM, said:

I'm not sure how I feel about the look of the Klingons. I know that the look has evolved and that the Klingons from TOS look nothing like the later Klingons but you could take Klingons from the movies, TNG, DS9, VOY, and ENT and they at least look like they come from the same species. These Klingons might as well be a completely new species.  
The Klingon makeover is a bit much. I guess they're getting around it by saying that these are ancient Klingons, but I'm really tired of people giving short shrift to continuity.

View PostCardie, on 25 September 2017 - 12:38 AM, said:

Many of my qualms about the show would lessen if they were a new species and the series was set a decade or two after the Dominion War. We know where Federation-Klingon relations will be in ten years, and it seems hard to imagine that everything was so different only a few years previously.  
Same here.

View PostG-man, on 25 September 2017 - 08:22 AM, said:

Then we have the alien who summarized his races past by claiming “we were livestock” … which begs the question, how do you go from “livestock” to becoming a technologically savvy race?  Given the summation, I do not see how they got to here from there.  
They were delivered from servitude by the savior, Gary Larson.

Quote

Finally, there’s the XO’s mutiny.  There is no other word for her incapacitating the captain in order to take over command.  That is mutiny.  At which point I shut the program off in disgust.  
So they're making the show more adult by making the adults act like adolescents-- that sounds familiar.

View PostCybersnark, on 25 September 2017 - 12:08 PM, said:

A tighter budget would've helped streamline a lot of the overblown and frankly unnecessary CGI (name one useful thing that a translucent free-floating hologram can do that a viewscreen can't).  
I think that astronomical budgets and photorealistic CGI are the enemies of creativity.

View Post3C273, on 25 September 2017 - 12:16 PM, said:

I saw both episodes.  Looks like we have another shoot-shoot-bang-bang type of show.  Where is the optimism of TOS?  Can't say I enjoyed this series.  Much prefer The Orville, which looks like it will discuss serious issues without the violence.  
Episode 3 was the best Trek I've seen in a long time.
Please visit The RJDiogenes Store. Posted Image   And my Gallery. Posted Image And my YouTube Page. Posted Image And read Trunkards. Posted Image  And then there's my Heroes Essays.  Posted Image

#24 Christopher

Christopher
  • Demigod
  • 32,916 posts

Posted 25 September 2017 - 07:16 PM

View PostOrpheus, on 25 September 2017 - 05:21 PM, said:

You may be right about their production thinking. I don't know.

I'm repeating what I read in a behind-the-scenes article that stated that was their reason for using holocommunicators, although I couldn't find the article again (or got tired of trying to locate it in my browser history).


Quote

But ordinary people can/do interact evocatively by audio or flatscreen (or text!) every day.

Yes, but they're not actors performing a script. Being physically face-to-face and able to move around each other gives actors performance options they don't have when staring at a screen and adds more energy to their interplay. It also gives the director a lot more freedom to compose shots of the characters talking and keep them from being static. It's not just about acting, it's about blocking and camera positioning. This is why DS9 gave up the holocommunicator idea, because the "hologram" actor was stuck in one place, which undermined the advantages of having the actor in the same physical space as the others.
"You don't use science to show that you're right, you use science to become right." -- xkcd

"The first man to raise a fist is the man who's run out of ideas." -- "H. G. Wells," Time After Time


Written Worlds -- My homepage and blog
Facebook Author Page

#25 FarscapeOne

FarscapeOne
  • Islander
  • 3,929 posts

Posted 25 September 2017 - 07:30 PM

This may seem like a trivial thing, but do you know one thing that bugs me here that I am happy that THE ORVILLE is doing?

Episode titles are shown on screen.  If not on the screen, at least put it up with the title sequence.  I am so tired of shows not having the episode title showing.

Overall, I am happy to have STAR TREK back on the small screen screen.  It does look gorgeous.  But I do think that having such a massive budget may put more emphasis on the visuals versus the real meat and potatoes.

I can understand giving the Klingons a new look, along with everything else, not the least of which the technology of Starfleet.  It's somewhat jarring to me, and it will be hard for me to reconcile those advances with all the previous spinoffs.

I have to wait until tomorrow to watch the next episode, since the only tv that can screen mirror is not available right now, and I go to work in an hour.

#26 Cardie

Cardie

    I'm a very *good* tailor

  • Administrator
  • 22,634 posts

Posted 26 September 2017 - 12:15 AM

One thing they kept from TOS that might better have ben discarded (as it was in the spin-offs) was the absurd practice of sending both captain and first officer on away missions. The opening desert adventure so should have involved a small team of junior officers from Engineering. No way it requires the top of the command chain to blast open a clogged up well.
Nothing succeeds like excess.

#27 gsmonks

gsmonks

    Tree Psychiatrist

  • Islander
  • 5,091 posts

Posted 26 September 2017 - 08:00 AM

TNG had some terrible actors at the beginning. There's a reason Gates McFadden, Denise Crosby, and Jonathan Frakes, found work hard to come by, before and after the series.

On the other hand, Brent Spiner, Patrick Stewart, and Will Wheaton were very much in demand. From the outset, Will was a victim of poor casting, although haters fail to remember what a great job he did in certain episodes, when he actually had a chance to shine. But those were non-wonder-boy episodes with really good drama and writing.
Capitalism is a pyramid scheme run by the 1%.

#28 Virgil Vox

Virgil Vox
  • Moderator
  • 5,375 posts

Posted 26 September 2017 - 09:22 PM

Quote

Seriously? Sure, the noses and ears are a bit different, but they still have the trademark forehead ridges. And the superficialities of appearance aside, they speak Klingonese, their culture is recognizably Klingon, and their death rites are a direct lift from TNG: "Heart of Glory," except for the bodies being preserved rather than treated as disposable.

I didn't say anything about the cultural aspects. They just don't resemble Klingons to me. I still think the same thing after the second episode.

Quote

That actually fits quite nicely with what we've established in the post-series Enterprise novels. My Rise of the Federation: Live by the Code ended with the Klingons retreating inward to focus on internal divisions resulting from the Augment virus, and with some factions turning their backs on Kahless's teachings in favor of a TOS-style treachery. That was 91 years before this episode, which is close enough to 100.

I was curious about how that would fit into your RoTF novels and whether you would have to course correct in the future. I need to re-read the older novels since they're not as fresh in my mind.

Quote

Neither is the title ship of the series or any of the regular cast besides Burnham and Saru. Welcome to the age of serial television.

I know it is the age of serial television. That does not mean I can't be disappointed about a character not being introduced in the first and second episodes. As a gay man I have been wanting any kind of LGBT representation from Star Trek. While the novels have given us a few LGBT characters and we kind of got a gay Sulu this will be the first major ST character to be gay and it is disappointing he hasn't been introduced yet. Heck, I think wasting two episodes on a largely disposable cast was disappointing, but YMMV.

Quote

Then we have the gag where the Vulcan technique for dealing with the Klingons until matters had settled is “Top Secret” … Seriously?  And Earth not having contact with the Klingons for a century?  A claim contradicted within the episode itself.  Which, even if true, means that they HAD contact before, so why was there nothing in the ship's records concerning how to deal with Klingons from Earth’s own past experience.

Yeah, I was expecting something a lot different than simply "Shoot to kill." Like you, I also wonder how their shoot first, ask questions later policy was kept a secret when they joined the Federation.
"You will give the people an ideal to strive towards. They will race behind you. They will stumble. They will fall. But in time, they will join you in the sun. In time, you will help them accomplish wonders."
--Jor-El


It's a recession when your neighbor loses his job: it's a depression when you lose yours.
-- Harry S. Truman

#29 Christopher

Christopher
  • Demigod
  • 32,916 posts

Posted 26 September 2017 - 10:10 PM

View PostVirgil Vox, on 26 September 2017 - 09:22 PM, said:

I didn't say anything about the cultural aspects.

Which is the point. The surface appearance, that's just artistic interpretation, like when different comic book artists draw the same character differently. What's important is how they're written, how they behave, what they believe and what they do. And all of that was entirely recognizable as Klingon.



Quote

I was curious about how that would fit into your RoTF novels and whether you would have to course correct in the future.

As far as the Klingons are concerned, it works nicely, since I intended them to stay isolated for a couple of generations anyway -- which means I didn't have any real plans to include them in future ROTF installments anyway. As far as anything else is concerned, it's too early to say, but I'll certainly be keeping an eye out for things I can foreshadow or back-project to the ROTF era.


Quote

Heck, I think wasting two episodes on a largely disposable cast was disappointing, but YMMV.

I don't think it's a waste to structure a narrative in a non-obvious way. I think it's an experiment. And I think it's a good one. They could've introduced Burnham as a convicted mutineer, a la Ro Laren or Tom Paris, or maybe just devoted the first few minutes to the destruction of the Shenzhou like they did with the Saratoga in "Emissary," but then we wouldn't have gotten the chance to feel just how profound a mistake and a loss it was for Burnham. This season is essentially a single 15-chapter novel, and looked at that way, it makes sense to devote the first two chapters to setting up the situation that drives the rest of the novel.



Quote

Yeah, I was expecting something a lot different than simply "Shoot to kill." Like you, I also wonder how their shoot first, ask questions later policy was kept a secret when they joined the Federation.

What do you mean "Shoot to kill?" Shoot first doesn't mean shoot to kill, because starships have shields. It's just a gesture of strength to earn the Klingons' respect. It's basically just threat posturing, like apes baring their teeth and pounding their chests. Klingons seek honorable battle, so to offer them battle, even as a token gesture, is something they appreciate. As we heard in T'Kuvma's speeches, if you come to them offering a peaceful hand of friendship, they'll assume you have a knife hidden in your other hand and are planning treachery.
"You don't use science to show that you're right, you use science to become right." -- xkcd

"The first man to raise a fist is the man who's run out of ideas." -- "H. G. Wells," Time After Time


Written Worlds -- My homepage and blog
Facebook Author Page

#30 Cardie

Cardie

    I'm a very *good* tailor

  • Administrator
  • 22,634 posts

Posted 26 September 2017 - 11:03 PM

Yes, starships have shields but they often fail in space battles. We don't know whether the Vulcan hello led to battles with casualties or not.

Did I hear correctly that Saru said they couldn't beam Georgiou's body back because the transporter couldn't lock onto anything without a life sign? They had no trouble beaming the explosive device into a dead Klingon's body. Does that mean they can beam to the dead and inanimate but not retrieve them?
Nothing succeeds like excess.

#31 Christopher

Christopher
  • Demigod
  • 32,916 posts

Posted 27 September 2017 - 09:13 AM

View PostCardie, on 26 September 2017 - 11:03 PM, said:

Yes, starships have shields but they often fail in space battles. We don't know whether the Vulcan hello led to battles with casualties or not.

If they did, the Klingons would not necessarily see that as a negative. To them, the opportunity to die in combat is a gift. Really, the ideas Burnham expressed here remind me of things that Keith R.A. DeCandido wrote about the Klingons in his IKS Gorkon novels, though I don't remember the specifics.


Quote

Did I hear correctly that Saru said they couldn't beam Georgiou's body back because the transporter couldn't lock onto anything without a life sign? They had no trouble beaming the explosive device into a dead Klingon's body. Does that mean they can beam to the dead and inanimate but not retrieve them?

I'd imagine it's considerably harder to detect an inanimate body somewhere in the interior of a large, heavily armored spaceship than it is to detect one floating in open vacuum with nothing in between it and the ship's sensors. Although Saru should've been able to lock onto her communicator if it were still on her person. I don't know whether it was.
"You don't use science to show that you're right, you use science to become right." -- xkcd

"The first man to raise a fist is the man who's run out of ideas." -- "H. G. Wells," Time After Time


Written Worlds -- My homepage and blog
Facebook Author Page

#32 Cardie

Cardie

    I'm a very *good* tailor

  • Administrator
  • 22,634 posts

Posted 27 September 2017 - 01:14 PM

Quote

If they did, the Klingons would not necessarily see that as a negative. To them, the opportunity to die in combat is a gift

That's true enough but what you have been arguing to several people concerned about Vulcans damaging Klingon ships or killing personnel as a strategy is that star ships have shields and thus the shoot first strategy wasn't about that. I don't think the Vulcans would be keeping this approach so tightly held if they didn't agree that it was counter to Federation protocols and morally iffy.
Nothing succeeds like excess.

#33 Christopher

Christopher
  • Demigod
  • 32,916 posts

Posted 27 September 2017 - 02:31 PM

View PostCardie, on 27 September 2017 - 01:14 PM, said:

I don't think the Vulcans would be keeping this approach so tightly held if they didn't agree that it was counter to Federation protocols and morally iffy.

Sarek never said it was a secret, as far as I recall. He was reluctant to answer because, as he said, the solution that worked for Vulcans 240 years earlier wouldn't automatically be the right solution in this case. Sure, Burnham or Georgiou could've looked it up in the computer, but that wouldn't have been as dramatic a scene.

Of course, 240 years earlier (which would be just last year, 2016) would be during the age of the Vulcan High Command, which -- as we saw in ENT -- was somewhat more militaristic in itself than the Vulcans we know from the TOS era. With the deposing of Administrator V'Las and the Syrranite reforms, Vulcan formed a new government and adopted a more pacifist value system. So the other reason Sarek would've been reluctant to endorse "the Vulcan hello" was because it was the policy of an earlier Vulcan government whose guiding philosophies he presumably didn't share.

Edited by Christopher, 27 September 2017 - 02:31 PM.

"You don't use science to show that you're right, you use science to become right." -- xkcd

"The first man to raise a fist is the man who's run out of ideas." -- "H. G. Wells," Time After Time


Written Worlds -- My homepage and blog
Facebook Author Page

#34 RJDiogenes

RJDiogenes

    Idealistic Cynic

  • Demigod
  • 13,884 posts

Posted 27 September 2017 - 05:02 PM

Well, the broadcast episode did pretty well, snagging 9.6 million viewers.
Please visit The RJDiogenes Store. Posted Image   And my Gallery. Posted Image And my YouTube Page. Posted Image And read Trunkards. Posted Image  And then there's my Heroes Essays.  Posted Image



Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Star Trek: Discovery, Star Trek: Discovery: Season 1

0 user(s) are browsing this forum

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users