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STAR TREK: DISCOVERY - S1, E2: "Battle at the Binary Stars".

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#21 Orpheus

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Posted 27 September 2017 - 10:32 PM

Could be. As I noted earlier, T'Kuvma explicitly did NOT claim it as Klingon territory, but declared that Federation borders are merely "too close to Klingon Territory" -- but that doesn't rule out prophetic or other unofficial interest by his faction or some larger group in Klingon society.

Of particular note: the way Burnham describes the "sacred ship" does not seem to match any version of Klingon technology we've seen (including this show). I'd expect a Starfleet xenoarchaeologist to recognize Klingon tech (especially Michael, given her personal history), yet it seems clearly unknown to her.

Indeed, this may answer a problem that has been nagging me: I have difficulty believing that T'Kuvma developed a cloaking technology that was so far outside the rest of Klingon tech that he loudly proclaimed his final attack as a demonstration to those who didn't believe he could make his ship invisible. He was clearly talking to the High Council. The Shenzhou had already seen this.

Maybe he learned it from this (unknown alien) sacred ship. Maybe even limited import of alien tech will trigger scientific, then sociopolitical, change in the Klingon ... is it called the Empire at this point? In the Prime Timeline, there were certainly indications that the Klingons weren't always in control of their technology (the forehead change; radiation issues, the destruction of Qo'nos]

Your knowledge of Trek lore/canon greatly exceeds mine, but my impression (from TNG) is that the Boreth monastery planet had been built (and part of the Empire) centuries before TNG, and hence before this episode. I could be wrong. Or this could be what Kahless was really pointing at. Or maybe T'Kuvma believed (or wanted to believe) it was. Then again: continuity -- who knows?

#22 Cardie

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Posted 27 September 2017 - 11:15 PM

It could be that the beacon had been there for many years but was treated as a relic by the Klingons who have fallen away from allegiance to Kahless's philosophy/theology. T'Kuvma thinks it's the best spot to start his revolution, goes to its vicinity, and waits for the Federation to come too close. I just got a strong vibe that this was all a set-up he had plotted and planned for a while, a trap to be sprung. I watched with friends and there was cross-talk. I should probably rewatch to get details more in focus.
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#23 FarscapeOne

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 02:46 AM

One thing I really liked that DS9 was the best at was having alien background characters.  On the bridge, we got several, not counting Saru.  It really felt like a representation of the Federation.

They should have aired both on CBS.  It flows much better that way.

#24 Christopher

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 08:14 AM

View PostOrpheus, on 27 September 2017 - 10:32 PM, said:

Could be. As I noted earlier, T'Kuvma explicitly did NOT claim it as Klingon territory, but declared that Federation borders are merely "too close to Klingon Territory" -- but that doesn't rule out prophetic or other unofficial interest by his faction or some larger group in Klingon society.

Territories can expand and contract over time. Given that the Klingon Empire has been fragmented for generations, it could easily be that old territorial claims have been ceded and forgotten, or that some expeditions reached territories that were never formally claimed.



Quote

Of particular note: the way Burnham describes the "sacred ship" does not seem to match any version of Klingon technology we've seen (including this show). I'd expect a Starfleet xenoarchaeologist to recognize Klingon tech (especially Michael, given her personal history), yet it seems clearly unknown to her.

The Klingons have been isolated for generations, hostile to the Federation, so it's not like there's been a lot of opportunity for Federation archaeologists to study Klingon ruins or consult Klingon libraries. Heck, the Federation fought a war with the Romulans just a century before this, but they won't even figure out that Romulans are related to Vulcans for another decade, because there's been no contact and no opportunity to learn.


Quote

the Klingon ... is it called the Empire at this point?

It was called that a century before in Enterprise, and a decade later in "Errand of Mercy."


Quote

Your knowledge of Trek lore/canon greatly exceeds mine, but my impression (from TNG) is that the Boreth monastery planet had been built (and part of the Empire) centuries before TNG, and hence before this episode.

Yes, exactly. As I already said, I'm not suggesting that this is Boreth (obviously it can't be, because it's a young system with protoplanetary disks, while Boreth hosted a borderline-habitable planet), merely that the creators of the beacon (and the writers of the episode) may have been drawing on the mythical resonance of the story of Kahless and the star.



View PostFarscapeOne, on 28 September 2017 - 02:46 AM, said:

They should have aired both on CBS.  It flows much better that way.

Leaving it incomplete was deliberate, because the idea was to get people to sign up for CBS All Access (or at least the free one-week trial) if they wanted to see the conclusion. And it apparently worked, because there was a record high in sign-ups for CBSAA that night.

Edited by Christopher, 28 September 2017 - 08:15 AM.

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#25 QueenTiye

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 11:11 AM

View PostCardie, on 27 September 2017 - 06:47 PM, said:

I took it that T'kuvma was looking to provoke any aggression from the Federation so that he could say, "See!" and then whip their butts. If Burnham had not confronted and killed the Torchbearer, he would have contrived another provocation to get the Shezhou to fire. The Vulcan hello got other Klingons of the time to back off but T'kuvma wanted it more than anything.

This is exactly right.  The whole set up was to have a sufficient aggression as to do two things - get the council to show up and then demonstrate strength in front of the council.  The success of Commander Burnham fed into it - there was no point at all unless the opponent was worthy.

I had two questions - what was the loud beacon of light all about? Was that genuinely signal tech for the houses?  And, do we have any evidence of T'kuvma's teachings making as far forward as Worf or the three musketeers, Kor, Kang and Koloth)?

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#26 Cybersnark

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 12:11 PM

Yeah, the scenario T'Kuvma set up was a Kobayashi Maru --anything the Shenzhou did would've resulted in bloodshed (including withdrawing; T'Kuvma would've simply shot them in the back and gone hunting for the nearest colony).

Hell, if you count the beacon as a ship, it's literally the Kobayashi Maru scenario.

View PostOrpheus, on 27 September 2017 - 10:32 PM, said:

Of particular note: the way Burnham describes the "sacred ship" does not seem to match any version of Klingon technology we've seen (including this show). I'd expect a Starfleet xenoarchaeologist to recognize Klingon tech (especially Michael, given her personal history), yet it seems clearly unknown to her.

Indeed, this may answer a problem that has been nagging me: I have difficulty believing that T'Kuvma developed a cloaking technology that was so far outside the rest of Klingon tech that he loudly proclaimed his final attack as a demonstration to those who didn't believe he could make his ship invisible. He was clearly talking to the High Council. The Shenzhou had already seen this.

Maybe he learned it from this (unknown alien) sacred ship.
I have a pet theory that T'Kuvma's ship is a Hur'q relic.

It's canonical from DS9 that the Hur'q raided Qo'noS shortly after Kahless, and it stands to reason that they did not simply withdraw on their own (I have to assume the Klingons made them pay in blood for every step they took on Klingon soil --Honour would demand no less). The Hur'q were apparently pillagers, so the cloaking device might not even be theirs; just another bit of plunder from some unfortunate world.

It equally stands to reason that Klingon technology is derived from captured Hur'q designs; if Burnham isn't aware of the Hur'q invasion (entirely possible, given the obvious lack of cultural exchange), she would naturally recognize "Klingon" influences even in the Black Ship's unusual design.
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#27 Niko

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 12:25 PM

View PostChristopher, on 28 September 2017 - 08:14 AM, said:

Leaving it incomplete was deliberate, because the idea was to get people to sign up for CBS All Access (or at least the free one-week trial) if they wanted to see the conclusion. And it apparently worked, because there was a record high in sign-ups for CBSAA that night.

Of course, then you also run the risk of having lots of people *cough*likeme*cough* who felt they didn't have enough to go on from that first half to commit to a subscription, and opted to get confirmation through other means.   It'll certainly be interesting to see how these experiments in smaller single-company services plays out in the next few years.

(I do plan on subscribing for the rest of the series... but the first thing I do once I log in will be to make sure there's a clear, easy way to unsubscribe once the season ends.)

I'm way behind on these review threads, but my main reaction to the episodes is that it was a ballsy move to start a series with a main character who is so off-putting.  Michael's entire approach - from the initial push to get sent on her one-woman recon, to landing on the ship when she had been instructed to only do a fly-by, to the mutiny - was so jarring for me.  I did not like her, and I did not want her to be "right" about the threat of the Klingons because it felt like rewarding behavior that I found so unlikeable.  And yet, that cognitive dissonance is probably why I'll continue watching.  There's just enough spark there of her attitude being an interesting result of human emotions clashing with the arrogance and sense of logic-defeating-all of the Vulcans that I can forgive it just enough to want to see where she goes from here and find out if the show can "redeem" her in my eyes.  So, I don't know if all of *that* was intentional or just my weird reading of the writing/acting, but it got the job done for me, anyway. :)
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#28 QueenTiye

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 02:39 PM

View PostNiko, on 28 September 2017 - 12:25 PM, said:

View PostChristopher, on 28 September 2017 - 08:14 AM, said:

Leaving it incomplete was deliberate, because the idea was to get people to sign up for CBS All Access (or at least the free one-week trial) if they wanted to see the conclusion. And it apparently worked, because there was a record high in sign-ups for CBSAA that night.

Of course, then you also run the risk of having lots of people *cough*likeme*cough* who felt they didn't have enough to go on from that first half to commit to a subscription, and opted to get confirmation through other means.   It'll certainly be interesting to see how these experiments in smaller single-company services plays out in the next few years.

(I do plan on subscribing for the rest of the series... but the first thing I do once I log in will be to make sure there's a clear, easy way to unsubscribe once the season ends.)

I'm way behind on these review threads, but my main reaction to the episodes is that it was a ballsy move to start a series with a main character who is so off-putting.  Michael's entire approach - from the initial push to get sent on her one-woman recon, to landing on the ship when she had been instructed to only do a fly-by, to the mutiny - was so jarring for me.  I did not like her, and I did not want her to be "right" about the threat of the Klingons because it felt like rewarding behavior that I found so unlikeable.  And yet, that cognitive dissonance is probably why I'll continue watching.  There's just enough spark there of her attitude being an interesting result of human emotions clashing with the arrogance and sense of logic-defeating-all of the Vulcans that I can forgive it just enough to want to see where she goes from here and find out if the show can "redeem" her in my eyes.  So, I don't know if all of *that* was intentional or just my weird reading of the writing/acting, but it got the job done for me, anyway. :)

I actually DO like her - and all of her arrogance, and vulcan logic but as you said - the thing that makes her so great as a character - is that that's a layer on top of our expectations of appropriate human behavior.  Like - would we dislike her so much if she was actually vulcan?  And, would she have broken protocol if she wasn't ACTUALLY human?  The competing impulses of her training and upbringing, and her natural humanity  sometimes makes for brilliance and sometimes makes for a mess - which is how it should be.

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#29 sierraleone

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 03:15 PM

View PostCybersnark, on 24 September 2017 - 08:20 AM, said:

A heads-up from the other thread: Canada's Space will also be airing this episode tonight after the pilot --note that CTV (the CBS affiliate in Canada) will only be showing the pilot.

Thanks for that. Any idea if they will be on-line at Space day after it airs? They used to do that with a lot of their programs, now, not so much.

ETA: nevermind, I realized it aired on the 24th, and no, Space does not have it available to watch, unless I sign-in to a cable provider... :/ Don't have one. C'est la vie. I saw the premier on CTV after reading your earlier post.

Edited by sierraleone, 28 September 2017 - 03:32 PM.

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#30 Cardie

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 03:38 PM

Quote

And, do we have any evidence of T'kuvma's teachings making as far forward as Worf or the three musketeers, Kor, Kang and Koloth)?

Perhaps. This isn't very spoilery but I'll mask it just in case.
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#31 Orpheus

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 04:13 PM

View PostQueenTiye, on 28 September 2017 - 02:39 PM, said:

I actually DO like her - and all of her arrogance, and vulcan logic but as you said - the thing that makes her so great as a character - is that that's a layer on top of our expectations of appropriate human behavior.  Like - would we dislike her so much if she was actually vulcan?  And, would she have broken protocol if she wasn't ACTUALLY human?  The competing impulses of her training and upbringing, and her natural humanity  sometimes makes for brilliance and sometimes makes for a mess - which is how it should be.

That's an interesting take -- Michael as the inverse tortured soul of TOS Spock. Spock was arrogant to the point of haughtiness, and did himself mutinously seize control of the Enterprise when he thought it was right

"You know why I have come... I know it is treachery and it is mutiny, but I must do this."
[Commander Pike is helpless to do anything but beep "No"]
-- The Menagerie, Part I

While I found Burnham's assault on Georgiou shocking (despite its relative nonviolence), I seem to recall Spock using it on Jim at least once, and I recall feeling outrage when Spock took over the Big E -- and seemed to be getting away with it (I was at that certain stage of toddlerhood). I remember thinking that if he could do that, both Spock and the Enterprise would be forever compromised. We could never trust either one again. We fogave Spock and loved him for decades.

(Oddly, I think The Enterprise turned out to be the more treacherous of the two, in episodes like The Ultimate Computer -- which may be why Kirk ultimately left her to suicide so he could Search for Spock.)

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#32 Cardie

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 06:22 PM

Another thing about T'Kuvma's ideology: he is not worried about the Federation seizing Klingon territory, in the way that the Feds and the Klingons spar over who is going to colonize which resource-rich primitive planet on TOS. He's afraid of Federation ideology infecting Klingons and making them multicultural cream puffs. It's their meaning "We come in peace" he fears, not its being hypocrisy. He brings to mind Eddington's comment on DS9 that the Federation are worse than the Borg, they assimilate you and you don't even know it.
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#33 FarscapeOne

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 06:43 PM

I was thinking that exact same thing as T'Kuvma was saying those words.  That scene with Eddington replayed in my mind just as he was saying it.

#34 Christopher

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 09:49 PM

Maybe T'Kuvma's xenophobia about Federation diversity infecting Klingon racial purity is why there aren't any QuchHa' (the term coined by the Klingon Language Institute's Lawrence M. Schoen for the Augment virus-mutated, TOS-style Klingons) among his followers. After all, we know from "Divergence" that those Klingons are seen as having a human taint and being impure. (Which is presumably why they were assigned to the ships that dealt with the Federation in the 2260s -- the old Chinese policy of "use barbarians to deal with barbarians.")
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#35 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 03 October 2017 - 09:35 AM

I haven't seen any episodes, mainly because I refuse to pay money to watch one show. As it turns out, it's sounding, from reviews I've watched, and read, that it is probably a good thing. Seems this Star Trek has turned the Klingons into their version of Trump supporters, instead of Make America Great it's Remain Klingon.

The main character Michael (Who is apparently female with a male name) apparently is able to escape prison by pleading with the computer...go figure.

A lot of the reviews I've seen say the same thing...this show is heavily Leftist Politicized, and it is extremely racist towards whites. Combined that with Jason Isaac's rants against Trump supporters (Because of which I will NEVER watch a show or movie that a$$hole is in)

So I will most definitely not be watching it.


Edited by Lord of the Sword, 03 October 2017 - 09:44 AM.

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Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

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#36 QueenTiye

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Posted 03 October 2017 - 10:25 AM

You know what?  You really really really need to get out of that bubble you're in.  The show is NOT racist towards whites, or anyone.  That's an outright lie.

A certain constituency got all upset because they felt somehow that there was TOO MUCH diversity on the show, what with a black female lead and an asian female captain.  But as it turns out, that was them just showing THEIR colors.  For one thing - what is Star Trek if NOT diverse?  How many people on the planet are "white" and what should the Federation look like 400 years in the future, with a united earth?  Do you honestly think it's unreasonable that there might be an asian female captain and a black female first officer on one ship across the whole federation given the global population, and the fact that earth has become a united, space-faring planet?

But even there - the first two epsiodes results in the death of the asian female captain, and the court martial of the black female first officer, setting the stage for the show which features a white male captain.

WHERE in that are you seeing racism against whites?  Where are those who are making the claim?

As to the Klingons - nope.  The Klingons are the same as they always were - we're just seeing them at an earlier time.  I don't know who came up with the "Make Klingon great again" idea, but it sounds a lot like insecurity.  NOTHING about the Klingons reflects any kind of Trumpism, better or worse, at least not in any way that I can see as being a direct take on that.

QT

Edited by QueenTiye, 03 October 2017 - 10:25 AM.

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#37 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 03 October 2017 - 10:44 AM

View PostQueenTiye, on 03 October 2017 - 10:25 AM, said:

You know what?  You really really really need to get out of that bubble you're in.  The show is NOT racist towards whites, or anyone.  That's an outright lie.

A certain constituency got all upset because they felt somehow that there was TOO MUCH diversity on the show, what with a black female lead and an asian female captain.  But as it turns out, that was them just showing THEIR colors.  For one thing - what is Star Trek if NOT diverse?  How many people on the planet are "white" and what should the Federation look like 400 years in the future, with a united earth?  Do you honestly think it's unreasonable that there might be an asian female captain and a black female first officer on one ship across the whole federation given the global population, and the fact that earth has become a united, space-faring planet?

But even there - the first two epsiodes results in the death of the asian female captain, and the court martial of the black female first officer, setting the stage for the show which features a white male captain.

WHERE in that are you seeing racism against whites?  Where are those who are making the claim?

As to the Klingons - nope.  The Klingons are the same as they always were - we're just seeing them at an earlier time.  I don't know who came up with the "Make Klingon great again" idea, but it sounds a lot like insecurity.  NOTHING about the Klingons reflects any kind of Trumpism, better or worse, at least not in any way that I can see as being a direct take on that.

QT

I don't mind diversity, I really don't. I do mind them portraying Trump supporters as the villains though, which they have done with the Klingons it seems. And it wasn't Make Klingon great again, if the reviews I read are accurate, the slogan was Remain Klingon, and the show producers and writers are the ones who decided, and admitted, that they based them on Trump and his Make America Great campaign.

But I won't ruin these threads with the politics of the show's Leftist Elite, which includes that white captain you mentioned. Apparently in RL he's an a$$hole to any Trump supporter, so for that reason alone I won't watch anything he is in. I stopped watching Teen Wolf when MTV did their whole racist Dear White People sh*t. I'll treat this a$$hole Elitist ACTOR the same way. And I won't ruin any more of these threads, I'll let you guys enjoy your show.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#38 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 03 October 2017 - 10:48 AM

Besides, QT, you very well may be right. I'm basing my opinions on this show off of reviews. Reviews done by people I don't know. I haven't seen an episode, mainly because it's only on CBS all access. Not paying money for that. And it being only on All Access is kind of weird...why alienated half the fan base by making it pay to view?
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#39 Christopher

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Posted 03 October 2017 - 10:54 AM

View PostQueenTiye, on 03 October 2017 - 10:25 AM, said:

For one thing - what is Star Trek if NOT diverse?  How many people on the planet are "white" and what should the Federation look like 400 years in the future, with a united earth?  Do you honestly think it's unreasonable that there might be an asian female captain and a black female first officer on one ship across the whole federation given the global population, and the fact that earth has become a united, space-faring planet?

Right. The simple numerical fact is, non-Hispanic whites make up no more than 1/6 of the current population of humanity, and that percentage is decreasing due to lower birth rates in the developed world. Even today, there are far, far more Asian humans than white humans. So the population of a unified global civilization in the future should realistically be mostly Asian, not just the occasional few we see in Trek.

Indeed, even on this show, the humanity we're seeing is unrealistically Western-centric. The casting is diverse but the character names are still overwhelmingly European and Anglo-Saxon. The new starships and classes still have mostly Western names -- the Shenzhou had a Chinese name but it belongs to the Walker class, after an American astronaut, and Discovery is the Crossfield class, after another American astronaut. There's even a starship named Europa, although that's probably supposed to be for the Jovian moon. We've also had ships named Clarke, Earhart, Edison, Glenn, Ride, and Yeager, plus a few more diverse ones -- Kerala, Sioux, Shran, T'Plana Hath.
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#40 Cardie

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Posted 03 October 2017 - 06:45 PM

The actors and showrunners have been going on in the PR about T'Kuvma being a Trump figure but his movement is about recovering an ancient, theologically driven concept of what it is to be Klingon. He sounds more like an al Qaeda or Isis leader talking about the harmful effects of assimilating to Western, secular values and re-establishing something very like a Klingon caliphate. But reviewers have been guided by the PR to say that T'Kuvma=Trump. The only thing they have in common is being outsiders who take on the establishment. IMO, at least.
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