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Star Trek Discovery S1 Ep 3: Context Is For Kings

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#21 G-man

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 01:20 PM

I would argue that the Transporter, especially one 10 years prior to TOS was not intended for internal ship transport, but only for external ship transport.  Thus the sensors were designed to look outside, not inside, hence the whole issue when it was brought up in TOS, because they were using the system in a manner that was not anticipated, and therefore not designed for.

So it isn’t just the range, but the unusual direction that would make it so dangerous a practice.

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#22 Christopher

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 01:59 PM

Since the Discovery's a science ship, maybe it has a prototype transporter that's better at intraship beaming. Which is not something that other ships are in any great need to be upgraded with swiftly, since, y'know, people can walk or use the turbolifts. Most of the time, it'd be a wasteful indulgence. It'd mainly just be useful in emergencies when parts of the ship were cut off and needed to be entered/evacuated.
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#23 Orpheus

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 02:06 PM

Re: transporters

I had forgotten Loca's point-to-point in this episode. My prior remark adressed the dialogue from the premiere, when Michael arrived and implicitly criticized Starfleet's use of horizontal transport as needlessly energy-wasting. I now see that as an effort to retcon the lack of [accepted] point-to-point transport in TOS, especially given what wwas to come in this (and other) DSC episodes

Loca's use in this episode should have been completely unnecessary, so I conclude this capability must be slated to play a key role in this season of DSC.

#24 Christopher

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 02:57 PM

View PostOrpheus, on 04 October 2017 - 02:06 PM, said:

I had forgotten Loca's point-to-point in this episode. My prior remark adressed the dialogue from the premiere, when Michael arrived and implicitly criticized Starfleet's use of horizontal transport as needlessly energy-wasting. I now see that as an effort to retcon the lack of [accepted] point-to-point transport in TOS, especially given what wwas to come in this (and other) DSC episodes

No, that's not what she meant, or for that matter what she said. What she referred to was the Shenzhou's "lateral vector transporter," which I take to be a reference to the "old-fashioned" transporter design with big dish-shaped emitters on the rear wall, as opposed to the usual design where they're in the ceiling. Burnham and Georgiou's dialogue makes it clear that they were talking specifically about the type of transporter installed in the Shenzhou itself, because Georgiou explained it by pointing out that the ship was old and had lots of outdated systems.
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#25 RJDiogenes

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 05:48 PM

View PostCardie, on 03 October 2017 - 06:35 PM, said:

But will some events lead to women being barred from being starship captains or Starfleet crews a decade later tending to be homogeneously from one species except for special cases, rather than the diversity we see on the Shenzhou and Discovery. These are trends we expect in 21st-century space opera but expressly contradicted by TOS.  
Probably not, since women weren't really barred from being captains-- I don't think we ever saw a woman captain in the series, but we did in the movies. As for species homogeneity, that's always been true-- perhaps it's simply out of practicality, because of environmental concerns, or because Starfleet vessels are contributed by the local military of Federation worlds.

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I wonder if his planet suddenly became vegan, as they must have stopped eating Saru's "livestock" species. It's not just that they are hunted for sport, like Tosk, he says they were also farmed. It could just be that food synthesizers have made livestock not worth the upkeep on Federation planets.  
I don't think we know if his planet is actually part of the Federation, do we?  He might be a refugee or something.  Maybe we'll visit his planet during the season.
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#26 Christopher

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 07:03 PM

View PostRJDiogenes, on 04 October 2017 - 05:48 PM, said:

Probably not, since women weren't really barred from being captains-- I don't think we ever saw a woman captain in the series, but we did in the movies.

And in TOS-era novels and comics, if one wished to count any of those. Plus, canonically, we had Captain Erika Hernandez of Columbia NX-02 a century earlier.

Really, however you choose to read that line from "Turnabout Intruder," the fact remains... it's from "Turnabout Intruder." One of the dumbest episodes of the series, and one that contains more than one continuity error of its own (such as misstating that General Order 4 carries the death penalty, and featuring Lt. Galloway even though he died a year earlier in "The Omega Glory"). So there's no reason to shape one's whole view of the 23rd century based on one throwaway line from such a dumb episode. Trek has its share of dumb episodes whose assertions are universally ignored. "The Alternative Factor" said that matter and antimatter mixing would destroy the entire universe, but every other Trek production (including "The Naked Time," which came before TAF) has portrayed matter-antimatter mixing as the power source of Starfleet vessels. The Final Frontier said a starship could travel from the Federation to the center of the galaxy in less than 7 hours (though it actually took more like 20-some minutes of seemingly continuous action), but every subsequent production has portrayed that as a journey of decades. VGR: "Threshold" said that transwarp drive would turn people into salamanders, but every other portrayal of transwarp has ignored it. It's okay to ignore things from bad episodes that nobody wants to acknowledge anyway.



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As for species homogeneity, that's always been true-- perhaps it's simply out of practicality, because of environmental concerns, or because Starfleet vessels are contributed by the local military of Federation worlds.

In my novels, I established it as partly due to environmental and design convenience, but also just kinda due to laziness and falling into old habits. It generally takes an effort to push for diversity, and if the effort slacks off, people tend to unthinkingly fall back into the pattern of associating mainly with their own type of people. However, other novels, and now DSC, have established that there were at least some more diverse starship crews in eras when I posited them as uncommon.



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I don't think we know if his planet is actually part of the Federation, do we?  He might be a refugee or something.  Maybe we'll visit his planet during the season.

On this week's After Trek, co-showrunner Aaron Harberts was asked if we'd see Saru's planet explored this season, and he seemed to say no, that their focus for now is more on Saru as an individual.
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#27 Orpheus

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 10:49 PM

View PostChristopher, on 04 October 2017 - 02:57 PM, said:

No, that's not what she meant, or for that matter what she said. What she referred to was the Shenzhou's "lateral vector transporter," which I take to be a reference to the "old-fashioned" transporter design with big dish-shaped emitters on the rear wall, as opposed to the usual design where they're in the ceiling. Burnham and Georgiou's dialogue makes it clear that they were talking specifically about the type of transporter installed in the Shenzhou itself, because Georgiou explained it by pointing out that the ship was old and had lots of outdated systems.

Thanks for explaining. That [misremembered] line had been a thorn in my side. Though it was clear that they were talking about a "type" of transporter equipment, it was anything but clear (at least to me) what that "type" was, especially since the alternative "type" in more recent ships went unnamed, leaving me nothing to compare it against. Is it only less efficient? Is it not amenable to biofilters? Pattern buffers? Is it a major technology change, a breakthrough, or just an alternate design with basically the same technological basis?

I still think this "older" type of transporter is slated for some pivotal role. AFAIK, it was in no prior series/film in this timeline; Enterprise NX-01 had a vertical transporter "area" without a lateral dish. There would be no need to invent the "lateral vector" design, much less dismiss it in the DSC premiere, unless it was intended for an important role in DSC.

#28 Cardie

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Posted 05 October 2017 - 01:06 AM

^^Bryan Fuller loves elaborate set design. I can see him just wanting them for the look, even with knowing they'd have to vanish at some point.
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#29 FarscapeOne

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Posted 05 October 2017 - 07:58 AM

I do wonder about the Shenzhou.  Was it scrapped?  Found and towed and used in other ways?

I have a theory that may seem odd... I notice a number of the Starfleet ships from the battle look VERY similar to ships from the FASA Federation Ship Recognition Manual.  In it, one story says that a ship was taken by the Klingons and used to bait other ships to be taken or destroyed by the Klingons.  Could this be the fate of Shenzhou?

Edited by FarscapeOne, 05 October 2017 - 07:59 AM.


#30 Christopher

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Posted 05 October 2017 - 09:21 AM

View PostCardie, on 05 October 2017 - 01:06 AM, said:

^^Bryan Fuller loves elaborate set design. I can see him just wanting them for the look, even with knowing they'd have to vanish at some point.

I figure they just wanted something that would established that Shenzhou was an older ship and Discovery a newer one (even though the latter has a lower registry number, suggesting an earlier class). Since they've changed the look so completely and we can't compare it to anything else we've seen from that era, they had to establish the difference in dialogue. Note that the inmates in episode 3 had dialogue about how spiffy and new Discovery looked once they boarded it.
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#31 G-man

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Posted 05 October 2017 - 09:33 AM

Of course, given the nature of Discovery's primary hull of concentric tori around the central orb -- as opposed to a solid saucer -- one might argue that access corridors are more limited and therefore having the ability to transport within the ship suddenly becomes more necessary.

/s/

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Edited by G-man, 05 October 2017 - 09:34 AM.

Let me strive every moment of my life to make myself better and better, to the best of my ability, so that all may profit by it.
Let me think of the right and lend my assistance to all who may need it, with no regard for anything but justice.
Let me take what comes with a smile, without loss of courage.
Let me be considerate of my country, of my fellow citizens, and my associates in everything I say and do.
Let me do right to all, and wrong no man.
-- Doc Savage

Few people want to be moderated, most people see the need for everyone else to be moderated. -- Orpheus

#32 Christopher

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Posted 05 October 2017 - 10:09 AM

View PostG-man, on 05 October 2017 - 09:33 AM, said:

Of course, given the nature of Discovery's primary hull of concentric tori around the central orb -- as opposed to a solid saucer -- one might argue that access corridors are more limited and therefore having the ability to transport within the ship suddenly becomes more necessary.

Not necessarily. It looks like there are five crossover bridges between the inner and outer rings -- the "spine" extending directly back from the bridge and four at 45, 135, 225, and 315 degrees. If you look at the Franz Joseph blueprints of the original Enterprise (which are inaccurate and speculative but give a decent broad-strokes impression of how a starship interior could be laid out), there are six radial corridors connecting the inner parts of decks 6 to the outer parts. So there isn't really any significant reduction in the amount of access.
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#33 Sci-Fi Girl

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Posted 05 October 2017 - 10:34 AM

Or it could have been because of Lorca's sensitivity to changes in light. What was the reason for that? Something happened to his eyes?

Yet another fact that seemed so random that it must be significant down the road.

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#34 RJDiogenes

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Posted 05 October 2017 - 05:11 PM

View PostFarscapeOne, on 05 October 2017 - 07:58 AM, said:

I do wonder about the Shenzhou.  Was it scrapped?  Found and towed and used in other ways?  
I also wonder about Captain Georgiou and the fact that her body wasn't recovered.  Was this for the sake of the drama of Burnham losing her captain-- or was she not so dead as we were led to believe?

View PostSci-Fi Girl, on 05 October 2017 - 10:34 AM, said:

Or it could have been because of Lorca's sensitivity to changes in light. What was the reason for that? Something happened to his eyes?

Yet another fact that seemed so random that it must be significant down the road.  
He said something about an eye injury and wanting to keep his own eyes.  I think it will indeed probably be of some significance.
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