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Las Vegas Massacre (Politics Edition)


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#21 Elara

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 01:21 AM

View Postgsmonks, on 03 October 2017 - 08:46 PM, said:

You not Moderate. You Watchdog. It say so under you avatar.

During my term, I'm both, it just doesn't say so. I guess I need a new bar.
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I want a job in HRC's "shadow" cabinet. Good pay, really easy hours, lots of time off. Can't go wrong.

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#22 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 07:44 AM

View PostOmega, on 03 October 2017 - 09:52 PM, said:

LotS, do  you ever notice how you use Chicago as a reference point pretty regularly? Ask yourself why that particular city. There are several others with higher rates of violent crime. Why do you (and many other so-called conservatives) have that particular brain bug? Who put it there? And what do they gain from it? And do you mind being purposefully infected with brain bugs? (Rhetorical question.)

Also, Chicago doesn't have strict gun control. Haven't since https://en.wikipedia...City_of_Chicago
http://www.politifac...hot-full-holes/
http://www.chicagotr...1003-story.html

Care to stop repeating lies?

Not sure just how unbiased the Chicago Tribune article is. The other two links were interesting, and did provide information I didn't know. Given the wiki page, and the politifact one, I'll stop saying Chicago has the toughest gun laws. Still, from all reports so far, all the weapons the shooter had were purchased legally. He passed all the background checks required. So what ban, exactly, would've prevented this? Banning the rifles he modified? The rifles as purchased wouldn't have been able to do the damage they did, until he illegally modified them. The bolded part is especially important. He ILLEGALLY modified them. The moment he did that he committed a felony, and the weapon in question was no longer legal.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

The last republican leaning independent on this message board. All others have been silenced and driven off, or outright banned. Only ONE remains. I guess HighLander had it right all along....In the end, there can be only ONE.

#23 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 07:54 AM

View Postsierraleone, on 03 October 2017 - 10:14 PM, said:

And, hey, aren't you a criminal? :p ;) I though at some point you said that you broke the law before.



Allegedly. ;) Actually, I can't say that. It's no longer allegedly when you plead guilty and paid the speeding tickets. LOL.

But your point about criminals not breaking EVERY law is valid. But as I pointed out in another post here, the weapons in question were legal UNTIL he illegally modified them. So what weapons ban would've stopped this? The rifles in question weren't capable of doing the damage they did UNTIL they were illegally altered. Not to mention that the suspect in question, by all reports I've seen, was a millionaire. Do you know a millionaire that wouldn't have been able to get these specific weapons, even if they were banned?

Edited by Lord of the Sword, 04 October 2017 - 07:55 AM.

"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

The last republican leaning independent on this message board. All others have been silenced and driven off, or outright banned. Only ONE remains. I guess HighLander had it right all along....In the end, there can be only ONE.

#24 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 07:59 AM

View PostOmega, on 03 October 2017 - 09:37 PM, said:

I'm tired of people saying politics should be left out of tragedies. If politics have the ability to prevent future tragedies, we have a moral obligation to engage in politics to that end. Trying to do otherwise is just saying "I don't care to prevent tragedies."

And I'm not saying politics should be left out....Just that some decency should be shown. 9 hours after, while bodies are still warm on the ground, is not the time.

Imagine, if you will, a person looses their spouse. Their spouse passes away, and 9 hours later that person is getting remarried. Yes the person has the right to do so, but I think most people would say that getting remarried 9 hours later is decidedly odd.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

The last republican leaning independent on this message board. All others have been silenced and driven off, or outright banned. Only ONE remains. I guess HighLander had it right all along....In the end, there can be only ONE.

#25 Niko

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 09:34 AM

^ I think a more appropriate analogy is:  After a plane crash that kills hundreds of people, do we sit on our hands out of respect for those who died, or do we immediately start asking "What caused this?  What can we do to stop this from happening again?"

The families who've lost loved ones deserve our entire society's focus being on making sure that their loss is not treated as an "Oops, so sorry, guess they should have been better prepared to be attacked out of nowhere because that's just one of those things that happens in this country."

I'm not the first to point out that, after a single dude tried (only TRIED) to blow up a plane with a shoe-bomb, the American people have been perfectly happy to adjust our expectations that hundreds of thousands of people a day need to take off their shoes to get through security before getting on a plane.... but somehow for mass shootings, we're now at the point where the right-wing media and political figures are literally saying "there's nothing we could do to prevent any gun violence ever" as their final answer to these sorts of events?!?!?    We're perfectly willing to say "Oh, if the violence was done by a Muslim.... THEN we can ban all Muslims, that's something we can do" but when it's done by a white dude...   *shrug* Boy, it's just a fact of life we're gonna have to deal with.  F*** that.

Timothy McVeigh blows up a building with fertilizer... and fertilizer gets restrictions put on it, despite the fact that 99.9% of people who buy fertilizer are buying it to fertilize stuff.  And that's ok.

Drug dealers use common over-the-counter drugs to make illegal drugs... so I have to show an ID to buy cough medicine, despite the fact that 99.9% of people who buy cough medicine are using it for coughs.  And that's ok.

But boy, that whole "people getting murdered with guns" thing.  Boy, that's the step too far.  Don't even mention the possibility that we might want to maybe make an effort to check people to see if they're sane or on a watch list or anything before handing them a murder weapon.   Don't even think about expecting existing rules to pertain to ALL means of sale.   Asking someone to maybe wait a couple days to get ahold of their murder weapon?  Totally the same thing as never letting them have it in the first place.   Mentioning that maybe certain types of guns aren't really necessary for civilians to have access to?  Gosh, you might as well be condoning breaking into someone's house and raping his womenfolk.

F***.  That.
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#26 Omega

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 02:16 PM

I agree that one side is against the most reasonable and trivial gun control laws. And that that same side is telling complete lies all the time about what laws exist and are enforced, and what effects they have.

But I also agree that the other side is advocating laws that would have minimal or zero impact.

It's reasonable to ask: what would have prevented this? Or any other mass shooting. I really have no good idea short of "take all the guns". Maybe severely curtailing the supply of ammo? Maybe?

Edited by Omega, 04 October 2017 - 02:19 PM.


#27 Sci-Fi Girl

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 03:01 PM

A remark I saw about empty words from politicians VS meaningful change:

Quote

Jim Beaver
@jumblejim

The first truckload of thoughts and prayers prepares to leave for Las Vegas. This should resolve our mass shooting problem.
11:27 PM - 2 Oct 2017

Attached File  first truckload of thoughts and prayers - DLLuR5-V4AEXWZi.jpg   16.2K   0 downloads

SFG

Edited by Sci-Fi Girl, 04 October 2017 - 03:04 PM.

"A song is like a picture of a bird in flight; the bird was moving before the picture was taken, and no doubt continued after."   - Pete Seeger

Pete Seeger's life was a picture of an idea in flight, and the idea will continue long after.  As long as there are people with goodness and courage in their hearts, the idea will continue forever.

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#28 sierraleone

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 04:16 PM

View PostOmega, on 04 October 2017 - 02:16 PM, said:

I agree that one side is against the most reasonable and trivial gun control laws. And that that same side is telling complete lies all the time about what laws exist and are enforced, and what effects they have.

But I also agree that the other side is advocating laws that would have minimal or zero impact.

It's reasonable to ask: what would have prevented this? Or any other mass shooting. I really have no good idea short of "take all the guns". Maybe severely curtailing the supply of ammo? Maybe?

Even a minimal impact would save many lives. But there is certainly a cultural problem that the U.S. doesn't want to touch.

I had wondered about the "well regulated militia" part of the 2nd amendment. What if a state decided that meant that gun-owners had to be part of a licensed gun club of sorts, and you had to spend X hours per year at their gun range to keep up one's safety and aiming skills. Plus, a two day refresher course each year on other regulations the state deems necessary (ex: how to respond to a active shooting situation). Maybe every 2 years a mental health evaluation. And if you aren't willing to do that, you are restricted to one hand gun per adult per household.
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
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Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#29 gsmonks

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Posted 05 October 2017 - 12:35 AM

The mental health thing is problematic at best. Most people experience some sort of mental health issue in their lifetime, whereas a perfectly normal person with poor impulse-control is more likely to kill than someone suffering from a mood-disorder. Schizophrenics, as messed up as they can be, are less likely to commit violent crime because they're less organised and often have great difficulty planning anything.

With criminals it is often a case of personality rather than mental health. Some people tend to become violent, as a matter of course, when drugs and/or alcohol are involved. I'm not talking about recreational drugs per se, either. Steroid-users are often prone to violent, dangerous outbursts. There are a host of medications, often for wholly unrelated illnesses (as is physical, not emotional), whose side-effects include violent outbursts, psychosis, suicidal thoughts, all manner of bad stuff.

And there are many people whose mental illness is unidentified because it is deemed to be a useful trait. Take obsession, for example. John Walsh is a sick, nasty piece of work, but turn him loose finding bad guys and he's everybody's hero. Remove "finding bad guys" from the equation, however, and he'd be a public menace. Who knows what his obsession would otherwise drive him to do?

Edited by gsmonks, 05 October 2017 - 12:35 AM.

Capitalism is a pyramid scheme run by the 1%.

#30 sierraleone

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Posted 05 October 2017 - 04:07 PM

^ It is definitely problematic and I would not want to over-simplify it.


Here is a quote from WaPo article: No, mass shootings are not 'the price of freedom'

Quote

I try to say, “Thank you for your service” to members of the armed forces as often as I can. Our troops not only make countless sacrifices for our country but also risk their lives to protect the liberties our Constitution provides. They deserve our thanks and much more.

If you share that view, then tomorrow, when you say your morning farewells to your children, your spouse or other loved ones, you should thank them for their service, too.  Because our Congress has decided that they must put their lives at risk of a mass shooting — at school, work or a country music festival — to protect a peculiarly absolutist view of the Second Amendment. The risk they are taking is not trivial. In the past five years, about seven times more Americans have been killed in mass shootings (1,715) than were killed in military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan (260).


Gun rights zealot Bill O’Reilly encapsulated this thinking when he said that the Las Vegas mass slaughter was “the price of freedom.”

Edited by sierraleone, 05 October 2017 - 04:08 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#31 Themis

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Posted 05 October 2017 - 05:35 PM

I have no idea how to solve this, nor, apparently do greater minds.  When our country began, muskets fired one bullet and most folk who owned muskets used them for hunting to feed themselves and their families.  There are still folk who use guns to hunt and use their kill to feed their families, though they could now go to their local supermarket - except that the local supermarket usually doesn't stock venison or squirrels or roadkill.  I personally don't object to rifles for hunting - and which rifles have no capabilities beyond that.  I guess I don't object to a hand gun - IN THE HOUSE - that could be used for defense.  Something where you actually aim and shoot rather than spray bullets and hope they hit something.  The problem, of course, is how to get the wrong stuff out of the hands of those who already own them.  Flying over the country with high power magnets???  Voluntary buy backs, which apparently worked in other countries, wouldn't do much good here.  So admittedly I have no solution for how we get the wrong weapons out of the hands of those who already own them, especially if they're legal.  I feel that I know what needs to happen.  I just have no idea how to make it so.
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#32 Omega

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Posted 05 October 2017 - 05:50 PM

I still think ammo control is a subject not discussed enough. What's wrong with that approach?

#33 Sci-Fi Girl

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Posted 05 October 2017 - 05:57 PM

^



SFG
"A song is like a picture of a bird in flight; the bird was moving before the picture was taken, and no doubt continued after."   - Pete Seeger

Pete Seeger's life was a picture of an idea in flight, and the idea will continue long after.  As long as there are people with goodness and courage in their hearts, the idea will continue forever.

Posted Image   Posted Image


Check out my music threads:

Beautiful Music: Folk, Acoustic, Traditional, and World

A Celebration of Song Lyrics, New and Old: Just the poetry  (to include those with different musical tastes than me)

When Sci Fi Actors Sing

#34 sierraleone

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Posted 05 October 2017 - 07:40 PM

View PostOmega, on 05 October 2017 - 05:50 PM, said:

I still think ammo control is a subject not discussed enough. What's wrong with that approach?

People have the right to keep and bear arms, but not ammo? Is that the idea? :D

I have seen people suggest 3 D printers could be a wrinkle in the effectiveness of any policy/regulation to tightly control ammo.

It could follow my ideas, where people can freely access ammo at a gun range, but can not take ammo off the property.
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#35 gsmonks

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Posted 06 October 2017 - 01:33 AM

Here in Canada, general gun-use went out with the need for hunting. All my granddads hunted for food, as did all earlier generations, going back 450+ years. People moved from rural areas to cities during the 1920's and 1930's, there were still plenty of farms in and around cities back in the 1950's, but they vanished by the mid-70's. My father and his brother were both city boys, and neither ever owned or fired a gun.

In the States, where half my family has lived since before the States came into existence, this false "gun culture" grew out of the Civil War from a toxic mixture of Southern bitterness and bigotry. Settlers battled and murdered their way West, taking land from Indians and resettled blacks as the Natives were wiped out and forced on to reserves, and blacks repeatedly had their property forcibly taken from them as they tried to move West and accumulate something.

The "us and them" "culture" of the militia types has its roots in Segregation, freed slaves, and bigotry.

Here in Canada, the 2nd Amendment would have been given the bum's rush a very long time ago. The 2nd Amendment and the NRA are the problem. The NRA is a terrorist organisation, or at the least, an organisation that facilitates domestic terrorism. Get rid of them and your problem will be solved. They threaten to retaliate? Good! Throw them in jail where they belong.
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#36 gsmonks

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Posted 06 October 2017 - 02:22 AM

A Hate map best illustrates this.

https://www.splcenter.org/hate-map

As one peruses a Hate map of the US, one can't help but notice that it represents the afterglow of history, and that it literally echoes the Civil War. Compare the concentration of Hate groups in the Old South to the rest of the country.
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#37 gsmonks

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Posted 06 October 2017 - 02:24 AM

It came out a few days ago that Stephen Paddock hated country music, and made a complaint about loud country music a few days prior.

If that's what set him off . . .
Capitalism is a pyramid scheme run by the 1%.

#38 sierraleone

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Posted 06 October 2017 - 07:18 PM

Here is a WaPo article I found interesting trying to statistically tying murder rates (note: murder *rates*, not individual murders) to the aggregate levels of trust in society (possibly a proxy of stability?), and how low levels of societal trust can more greatly impact people with borderline or marginalizing problems.

https://www.washingt...m=.cfe357c8c44b

- from phone

Edited by sierraleone, 06 October 2017 - 07:29 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#39 gsmonks

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Posted 06 October 2017 - 09:16 PM

Well, I'm afraid that author is a pseudointellectual who doesn't understand the sources of information he cited.

For instance, the English riot he refers to in 1819 occurred 7 years after the War of 1812. The Industrial Revolution began ca 1760, but the Middle Class phenomenon didn't really take hold until ca 1820, once social conditions had gotten the traction needed to start the Victorian Middle Class.

A number of factors have to be taken into account here: people moved from rural areas to the cities, where the brand-new factory jobs were. The mind-set the author mentions simply did not exist in 1819. People at the time were former farmers fighting just to have rights, and part of the forming of a middle class meant shrugging off an absolute centralised authority in favour of a parliamentary system of government. In other words, there simply was no trust to be eroded. The social contract such trust entails did not yet exist.

Here's more on the subject:

"The upper class still possessed the land and titles, but the industrial middle class had the money." (IOW- the country's wealth shifted from the monarchy to the middle classes):

http://www.england-h...e-middle-class/

The same is true of the statistics he cites RE the US. He's right about the numbers, but he's dead wrong about the reasons. He's conflating events to bolster his take on certain statistics without first getting his facts straight.

Dunno who taught this fellow his research methods, but they did a piss-poor job.
Capitalism is a pyramid scheme run by the 1%.

#40 Elara

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Posted 06 October 2017 - 09:26 PM

View Postgsmonks, on 06 October 2017 - 02:24 AM, said:

It came out a few days ago that Stephen Paddock hated country music, and made a complaint about loud country music a few days prior.

If that's what set him off . . .

Actually, I have read that his relatives reported that he enjoyed country music.

He booked a room overlooking at least one other music festival (not country music). It seems like I read there was more than one other festival, but I can't find the article right now. To me, it seems as though he was getting up his nerve, allowing the stress and anger to build.

He basically gambled for a living, and one casino host said that his demeanor made them feel like he had a god complex. They said that he didn't brag, but he always seemed to feel his needs should come before any other customer.

The night of the massacre, he made several complaints about the music coming from the room below his (not country music).

Before the massacre, he bought an SUV, and from the price given, it was used. Since he won nice cars, why a used SUV? And that is even more curious because they found:

Quote

fertilizer that can be used to make explosives and 50 pounds of Tannerite, a substance used in explosive rifle targets.

It would seem that either that SUV or his car was going to be used as a bomb. The SUV he might have considered a good nondescript getaway vehicle, or the one to use as the bomb because it was old. So either one. Scary to think that things could have been worse.

He sent his girlfriend on a trip to the Philippines, which is where she was born, and sent her a large sum of money.

Edited by Elara, 06 October 2017 - 09:26 PM.

El
~ blue crystal glows, the dark side unseen, sparkles in scant light, from sun to planet, to me in between ~


I want a job in HRC's "shadow" cabinet. Good pay, really easy hours, lots of time off. Can't go wrong.

"You have a fair and valid point here. I've pointed out, numerous times, that the Left's or Democrats always cry "Racist" whenever someone disagrees with them. I failed to realize that the Right or Republicans do the same thing with "Liberal"." ~ LotS


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