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Harvey Weinstein


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#1 gsmonks

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Posted 14 October 2017 - 06:24 AM

Why is everyone suddenly pretending they've never heard of the casting couch routine? Raping and molesting young hopeful women has been a staple of the acting profession since long before the silent movie days. I believe it was Tallulah Bankhead who once famously said, "Who do I have to f*ck to get out of this picture?"

Wine-stine is just the tip of the iceberg. As if no one knows that.
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#2 QueenTiye

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Posted 14 October 2017 - 12:15 PM

Concur.  Also - in every other business in America this is a problem - with this particular manifestation in hollywood being particularly pernicious.

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#3 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 02:20 AM

Thank you. I was waiting to see how long it would take before someone started a thread about this. It took longer than I expected,  before this thread appeared, but at least it finally did appear. I didn't start it because it would've been turned into  "oh look, LotS is going off on the Left yet again "

Every Left-wing Hollywood Elite really has lost any moral right to say anything about Trump and the access tape. And let's not forget these were the same people that gave child rapist Roman Polanski a standing ovation.

Also, for those who claim NBC is a valid and unbiased news organization, just remember NBC tried to kill this story.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

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#4 gsmonks

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 03:43 AM

Hollywood is/was just as full of Right Wing types like Elia Kazan who were complicit with McCarthyism and destroyed the careers of a good many actors.

Like the rest of the population, Hollywood is divided about 50/50 down party lines. Clint Eastwood, Tom Selleck, Charlton Heston, just a few examples of Righties.
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#5 sierraleone

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Posted 15 October 2017 - 01:35 PM

I saw some commentary that put it perfectly, which I will probably proceed to mangle ;)

The verbiage that he has "made a mistake"? Making a mistake is putting on mis-matched socks. Or forgetting someone's birthday. Or accidentally getting someone's flight arrival time wrong when you are supposed to pick them up.

The only way to make the mistake analogy work is if one assumes Weinstein both wanted consensual sexual contact and thought he was getting it. To presume such naivety on his part is grossly underestimate the ability of a highly successful man from reading people and situations, and is, figuratively speaking, giving him a criminal amount of benefit of the doubt.

To say that Weinstein and similar abusers did a mistake essentially abdicates the abuser from the agency and responsibility of their actions.  It is saying that they did not mean to do it. What they did not mean to do was to get caught and exposed…. They mean to do what they do, to lord their power over another and humiliate and hurt their victims. They did a intentional wrong, an immoral thing, which took away the agency of another person.

Edited by sierraleone, 15 October 2017 - 01:56 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
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Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#6 Omega

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 08:40 AM

I read Banks' "Culture" series recently. I'm really starting to like the idea of slap drones: a little machine that follows certain people around everywhere, and if they are about to do anything to harm someone else, just... stop them.

A more currently-realistic scenario would be for a subset of people to go around recording everything that happens to them, so when an accusation is made, there's definitive evidence that's harder to ignore.

I'm not sure how else this kind of thing ends.

Edited by Omega, 16 October 2017 - 08:42 AM.


#7 gsmonks

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 11:01 AM

I wonder if this means there's going to be a run on old casting couches on Craigslist. They've been a thing since the silent movie days.

https://www.merriam-...y/casting couch
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#8 QueenTiye

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 12:06 PM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 15 October 2017 - 02:20 AM, said:

Thank you. I was waiting to see how long it would take before someone started a thread about this. It took longer than I expected,  before this thread appeared, but at least it finally did appear. I didn't start it because it would've been turned into  "oh look, LotS is going off on the Left yet again "

Every Left-wing Hollywood Elite really has lost any moral right to say anything about Trump and the access tape. And let's not forget these were the same people that gave child rapist Roman Polanski a standing ovation.

Also, for those who claim NBC is a valid and unbiased news organization, just remember NBC tried to kill this story.

This idea that the hollywood can't say anything ever again is nuts.  Does that mean that the right-wing politicians should stop trying to legislate women's health issues since members of their coalition are found to advocate abortion for their mistresses?  One would, I'm sure, say yes... but there are undoubtedly some who hold those values dear and want to speak into them, and there are equally likely some who hold those values dear and behaved otherwise in face of fear and weakness, where they hope that government legislation would keep them from falling into a trap.

Likewise, in the deeply complicated universe of sexual harrassment, levels of complicity are... complicated.  Which doesn't mean that there are moral truths that shouldn't be pushed to the forefront of the conversation, including by those who are morally compromised by this whole scandal.

QT

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#9 Orpheus

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Posted 16 October 2017 - 03:12 PM

*
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View PostQueenTiye, on 16 October 2017 - 12:06 PM, said:

View PostLord of the Sword, on 15 October 2017 - 02:20 AM, said:

Every Left-wing Hollywood Elite really has lost any moral right to say anything about Trump and the access tape. And let's not forget these were the same people that gave child rapist Roman Polanski a standing ovation.

This idea that the hollywood can't say anything ever again is nuts.  Does that mean that the right-wing politicians should stop trying to legislate women's health issues since members of their coalition are found to advocate abortion for their mistresses?  One would, I'm sure, say yes... but there are undoubtedly some who hold those values dear and want to speak into them, and there are equally likely some who hold those values dear and behaved otherwise in face of fear and weakness, where they hope that government legislation would keep them from falling into a trap.

Let me be clear that the following rant is not directed at anyone here, but at an argument that has become widespread in political dialogue (1000s of years ago)

QT said it well, but I got all het up (that's a Georgia phrase) to post, and dang it, I will.

The "lost the moral right" argument is the last resort of a hypocrite who knows their side is in he wrong on an issue, and a fundamental basis for our divided nation.

It claims a free pass for our side, tunes out inconvenient facts and frees us to fuel ourselves into a private teapot fury over the hypocrisy/evil of the other side.

However, the argument itself is hypocritical trash. Have YOU ever said to yourself "someone on my side of the political fence committed a certain wrong, so I have no right to criticize or act on that wrong"? Of course not. NO ONE DOES! It's easy to see the foolishness of the argument when applied to oneself, but those making the argument act as if it has merit when applied to others, and pretend to expect it to have any meaning beyond self-righteousness and a feigned right to overlook inconvenient wrongs.

The more applicable saying would be "a pox on both their houses".

The CORRECT response would not be that partisan: a pox on wrongdoers! May they publicly suffer the just desserts, to exactly a fair measure (but no more), to deter themselves and all others from similar evil.

The BEST response would add: "And I'm going to try to personally do what I can to oppose it!" (However little it seems, there's no virtue in leaving small things undone)

Anyone who says ANY American has lost their moral right to speak out is only declaring that THEY THEMSELVES don't deserve the rights of an American or even a moral being. The right to speak out against evil is a moral right even where there is no freedom of speech. "Freedom of Speech" is simply our declaration that our government will try not to squelch this natural right. Even a dog may complain when treated badly -- and usually will, unless it's terrified.

#10 Elara

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Posted 17 October 2017 - 01:34 AM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 15 October 2017 - 02:20 AM, said:

Thank you. I was waiting to see how long it would take before someone started a thread about this. It took longer than I expected,  before this thread appeared, but at least it finally did appear. I didn't start it because it would've been turned into  "oh look, LotS is going off on the Left yet again "

And why would you zero in on "the Left"? You really think this is a Right or Left issue? Do you think a woman (or a man) asks the would be assaulter or rapist what their political leanings might be? Do politics even enter into what happened? The answer to all but the first question is: No.
As someone who has been inappropriately touched by men, I know this has no political side, only men who think they have the right. So don't play that game, LotS, don't try to start a political argument over something as disgusting as what that so-called man did.
If you had posted a thread simply based on what a creep Weinstein is, no one would have mentioned politics, and no one would have disagreed with you. As for why others didn't post this thread earlier, I don't know, but I know that I didn't because it was just too sickening to think about. So, who are you insulting with that suggestion that you know the reasons for the delay? Do you honestly think, after all of these years, that any of us would excuse what that so-called man has done?
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I want a job in HRC's "shadow" cabinet. Good pay, really easy hours, lots of time off. Can't go wrong.

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#11 schoolpsycho

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Posted 17 October 2017 - 10:38 AM

View PostOrpheus, on 16 October 2017 - 03:12 PM, said:

Even a dog may complain when treated badly -- and usually will, unless it's terrified.


Stopping in briefly.

Bolding and emphasis mine.

So true. About this, and a great many things.

For more than many a human.

sp

Edited by schoolpsycho, 17 October 2017 - 10:40 AM.

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#12 gsmonks

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Posted 17 October 2017 - 02:23 PM

Here's a bit on casting couch history:

https://www.theatlan...-cliche/543000/
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#13 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 19 October 2017 - 12:18 AM

View PostElara, on 17 October 2017 - 01:34 AM, said:

Do you honestly think, after all of these years, that any of us would excuse what that so-called man has done?

Do I think people here would excuse it? No, not once it was brought up. But it's been my experience that when it comes to issues like this taking place with someone on the Left, well let's just say it takes awhile before a thread about it appears. If it had been a conservative on the Right that had done this, my guess is the thread would've been up within 5 hours after the story broke.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

The last republican leaning independent on this message board. All others have been silenced and driven off, or outright banned. Only ONE remains. I guess HighLander had it right all along....In the end, there can be only ONE.

#14 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 19 October 2017 - 12:22 AM

View PostElara, on 17 October 2017 - 01:34 AM, said:


And why would you zero in on "the Left"? You really think this is a Right or Left issue? Do you think a woman (or a man) asks the would be assaulter or rapist what their political leanings might be? Do politics even enter into what happened? The answer to all but the first question is: No.


Politics got entered into this when all those Hollywood elites who condemned Trump for the access tape, were discovered to have KNOWN about this pervert's behavior and remained silent. How many other victims was this predator able to attack BECAUSE these holier than thou's in Hollywood remained silent? All because he was one of their own. Politics got inserted further into this when NBC tried to kill the story, to protect a big donor, regardless whether or not he was a predator.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

The last republican leaning independent on this message board. All others have been silenced and driven off, or outright banned. Only ONE remains. I guess HighLander had it right all along....In the end, there can be only ONE.

#15 Orpheus

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Posted 19 October 2017 - 01:25 AM

Well, I'd definitely say there's a difference between knowing someone does something and hiring them for a job (like President) anyway

Trump is a known philanderer and adulterer [e.g. he was having an affair with his second wife while still married to his first]. I can condemn that. It would be WRONG not to. Unless you approve of that
or consider it trivial.

In an election we are comparing candidates. While I would agree that HRC should be criticized for supporting her husband's abuse/assault of women (and attacking the victims), that's a far cry from BEING the person abusing/assaulting women, as Trump has been accused of many times, and as he confessed in the tape. Saying we shouldn't believe his "boats" hardly commends his honesty either, though I will concede that locaker room talk is ridiculously common among men. Nothing excuses abusing/assaulting women, even *IF* it is common in the ranks of power, whether it's Bill Clinton or Donald Trump.

The sad fact is: though both Presidents deserve ...bad things. The voters knew the accusations during both elections and didn't apparently care very much. I criticize US for that enabling behavior.

#16 sierraleone

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Posted 19 October 2017 - 10:52 AM

Also, this isn't just a problem of quote/unquote powerful men.

I was watching a clip yesterday of a TV personality on a national comedy show. She spoke about two instances where she was technically/institutionally in a more powerful position, yet she was sexually groped, both in the work place.

One was when she was getting her hair done before going to set, and the hairdresser groped her breasts.
Another was when she was taking pictures with the studio audience and a man grabbed her bottom.

She stated that she felt stupid, humiliated, and didn't want them to suffer the shame of being called out, so she let it go.
What is our society teaching women that this is how one should feel, and that "letting it go" is the best go-to option?
Between gender-roles/socialization, and how we treat men and women that do come forward, it is not that surprising sadly.
This happened to Taylor Swift too. While she did tell the guy's boss afterwards she *did not* make a stink when it actually happened, which was in front of cameras. Taylor swift just reported, did not tell the boss what to do from what I understand, and his boss decided to fire the guy…. And the guy decided to sue Taylor Swift!

Think of street harassers, little to nothing makes them institutionally more powerful then women (I mean their "positions" in society, though if one means the institutions of the justice systems, then sexual harassment and assault as a crime is hard to prosecute). But when men who are bad-actors want to exert themselves they will use the opportunity proximity (or the internet) provides. They basically want to bring women down a notch, whether it is women 'rank' "beneath them", "equal" to them, or "above them", institutionally, culturally, or otherwise. It makes them feel powerful to shame and intimidate women. And I guess they feel a man isn't a man unless he feels powerful...

So this is hardly a hollywood liberal elite problem. It's a pervasive cultural problem.

I liked this WaPo article: Men of the world: You are not the weather

Edited by sierraleone, 19 October 2017 - 11:52 AM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#17 Omega

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Posted 19 October 2017 - 11:24 AM

Perhaps some aspects of this are related to the broad sociological issue of diffused responsibility. Those in the know, both men and women, even some of the victims, decide to say "I won't do anything about it" for various reasons. Which just allows the perpetrators to get away with it again and again, condemning even more to be victims. Those who could say something are not performing the necessary thought experiment: "What would happen if everyone in the world behaved as I am behaving?"

#18 sierraleone

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Posted 19 October 2017 - 12:54 PM

Many victims find going through with reporting sexual harassment/assault/rape more harrowing than the crime itself.

There is having to re-live it, and I imagine submitting to questioning by law enforcement officers and lawyers can feel like not-so-subtle gas-lighting. True, it is a difficult thing for anyone of any crime to go through, but the assumptions (both of the survivor, and law enforcement/lawyers/others) around sex crimes is much different than other crimes, and the traumatization of the crime and/or re-living it under forceful questioning can make victims act differently than someone recounting a "straight forward" crime of assault, theft, etc.

I had read an idea once that could make survivors more likely to report and/or get successful prosecutions, though it does require letting it go once… Let a a survivor report, do the rape kit, have law enforcement take their statement/testimony and ask clarifying questions as needed. Interview the alleged perpetrator also. Let the survivor decide whether to press charges (knowing how difficult it is to get a successful conviction and how traumatizing it is to go to court). But give the survivor the option of knowing, and/or letting another survivor of that perpetuator know, if anyone else has reported a sexual assault from the same perpetrator. When that happens they can re-evaluate going to court. I can't recall how they said to prosecute it, whether they let the cases go forward together (which would be highly unusual), or let each case reference the other case.

I don't know if that is a great idea. Providing *a lot* of meaningful support for survivors at every step of the process may increase the number that goes to court, but would it really increase the conviction rate of sexual assaults that make it to court?

I think we also need to consider letting less prosecutor discretion in prosecuting rape cases, if the survivors wants to pursue charges. Prosecutors often worry about their conviction rates, for professional reasons, over pursuing justice.


I also heard that France was considering making an "on-the-spot" fine for street harassment. Sounds like it would have to be pretty egregious. It wouldn't have to be necessarily witness by a cop, a harassee could report it to the nearest police, but in anything larger than a village the harassee probably wouldn't know the harasser's name, unless he hung around the same spot by the time they returned.


I had wondered how these settlements (i.e. hush money with confidentially clauses) could be put aside…. Survivors take these because while still an awful process to go through, they are more likely to get something out of it then going through court with their abysmal conviction rates.

What if we applied the anonymous rape reporting/notifying thing to confidential settlements? Settlements are almost always for something that is criminal, whether through neglect (companies 'accidentally' poisoning people) or through intentional wrong-doing. What if when there ends up being two settlements (or a settlement and a court case) for the same type of crime by the same perpetuator the law requires that both survivors are informed of the other settlement/court case, and it nulls and voids the confidential aspect and the not-pursue-this-in-court aspect of any settlement? Could put a legal clause that the later settlement has to wait 5 years or something, to not take away all reason for the alleged perpetuator to settle, but the settlement cannot prevent or stop the second survivor from testifying in any court case the first survivor decides to pursue (as they may not have 5 years to wait, depending on statute of limitations or other reasons).

Edited by sierraleone, 19 October 2017 - 12:59 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#19 sierraleone

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Posted 19 October 2017 - 01:05 PM

Oh geeze :(

WaPo: In the military, trusted officers have become alleged assailants in sex crimes.

Specifically officers entrusted in either persecuting sex crimes or certified as a sexual-assault-prevention officer. :(
10 of them. :(
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#20 gsmonks

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Posted 19 October 2017 - 01:11 PM

You have to remember, above all, that we're talking about a deep-rooted sociological phenomenon that has gone on since before recorded time, that was acceptable, if immoral, until recently. It's called the casting couch routine for good reason. It's a usual routine, meaning that it's an everyday event, like murders, going to the toilet, and traveling to and from work every day.

Modern business is a throwback to the Feudal era. When you enter a corporation, you check Democracy at the front door. The heads of corporations still behave like stupid animals, and sociopath CEO's still glory in abusing people, just to get their rocks off.

This is not a problem that is going to go away soon.
Capitalism is a pyramid scheme run by the 1%.


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