Jump to content


Getting an "Insecure Connection" warning for Exisle? No worry

Details in this thread

Sgt. La David T. Johnson


  • Please log in to reply
12 replies to this topic

#1 sierraleone

sierraleone

    All things Great and Mischievous

  • Islander
  • 8,804 posts

Posted 20 October 2017 - 09:29 PM

Sgt. La David T. Johnson
Staff Sgt. Bryan Black
Staff Sgt. Jeremiah Johnson
Staff Sgt. Dustin Wright.


I wanted to put their names at the top of this thread, because it feels like they have totally been forgotten in the news coverage of Trump's handling of this this week. What this has turned into is so disheartening and so demoralizing... on so many levels…. But we can't avoid the elephant in the room, so I will address that first, and then return to what happened in Niger.

I want to be factual, and try not to read intent into what people did or said this week, partly to shorten it, and partly because the whole situation is so distasteful.

I am doing this because I don't think ignoring awful things and problems makes things change. Talking and doing may require sensitively and delicacy, and all I can hope is that I am up to the task in starting this thread, though I imagine I will hit the wrong note at some point.

Wed Oct 4:
- Four U.S. soldiers, named at the top of this post, were killed, it is believe by ISIS fighters. 2 more were injured.
- WH staffers prepared a statement for Trump to give the following day, but the statement was never given.
Oct 5:
- Instead Huckabee-Sanders gave a standard "our thoughts and prayers" sentiment.
Oct 6:
- Sanders is asked why there had been no response from Trump to the soldiers killed in Niger. Sanders responded that the statement the prior day was made on behalf of the administration.

Mon Oct 16:
- A reporter asked Trump: "Why haven't we heard anything from you so far on" the soldier deaths in Niger.
- Trump said he felt "badly about that" that those "are the toughest calls I have to make" and that past POTUS's, including Obama, hadn't written or called families of slain servicemen (incorrect), though later backtracked slightly saying "I was told that he didn't often."

Oct 17:
Morning - In a radio interview Trump suggest reporters ask his chief of staff John Kelly, a former four-star Marine General and gold-star father, whether Obama called Kelly when his son Robert died in the line of duty in 2010. (Obama didn't make a call but had had Kelly at an event honouring gold-star families).

At some point before the condolence call (up next) Trump indicated he wanted to do more than send a letter, he wanted to call the gold-star families. Kelly advised Trump against it, and also said it was one of the hardest things to do, and that there was nothing Trump could do to lighten the burden on this families. When Trump persisted Kelly told Trump how he was told about his son's military death and that he didn't get a call from Obama. Gen. Joseph Dunford, now chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff (I think he knew Kelly) said to Kelly that his son "was doing exactly what he wanted to do when he was killed. He knew what he was getting into. He knew what the possibilities were because we're at war", and that "when he died he was surrounded by the best men on this Earth, his friends."

Afternoon - With WH staffers present Trump called Sgt. La David T. Johnson's widow to give condolences while she is in a limo on the way to pick up her spouse's body and casket. Other family members, including the Sgt.'s mother and at least one long-time close-family friend (Congresswoman Frederica Wilson) are in the car and the widow put Trump on speaker. Trump said something to the effect that Sgt. La David T. Johnson "knew what he signed up for but I guess it still hurts".

Evening - Sanders confirmed Trump has called the families of the four soldiers killed in Niger.
Late Evening - On CNN the Congresswoman told her version of events, including the part where Trump said the Sgt. "knew what he signed up for but I guess it still hurts", and also said the widow said Trump didn't even remember/use the Sgt.'s name, Trump referred to him as "your guy". She also shares the widow just recently found out that there can't be an open casket due to the condition of the body.

Oct 18:
Morning - Trump tweets that Congresswoman Wilson "totally fabricated" what he told the widow, and he has proof (a lie).
- The Sgt.'s mother tells CNN that Wilson's account was "very accurate".
Afternoon - The information about the unreleased statement prepared Oct 5th gets reported on the news.

Oct 19:
Afternoon - Chief of Staff John Kelly takes the podium during the White House daily briefing. He starts his remarks by recounting in deep detail what happens when a soldier is killed overseas. He shared that the next-of-kin are informed by a casualty officer. He said his family got calls from from his son's military friends attesting to his character and those calls were the most important. He shares what counselling/advise he gave Trump before the call. He says "There's no perfect way to make that phone call".
- He does not contradict Wilson's or the Sgt.'s mother's version of events.
- He slams the congresswoman and said he was shocked and stunned over her behaviour, calling her an empty barrel. He also did not refer to her by name, but as "a member of congress" "a congresswoman". He made it sound as if she was somehow improper in listening in on that condolence phone call (per before, she was a long-time family friend, they asked for her to be with them), adding "I thought at least that was sacred", and then goes on a screed about lost sacredness in our culture, "You know, when I was a kid growing up, a lot of things were sacred in our country. Women were sacred, looked upon with great honour. That's obviously not the case anymore as we see from recent cases. Life - the dignity of life - is sacred. That's gone. Religion, that seems to be gone as well. Gold Star families, I think that left in the convention over the summer. But I just thought … [ ] … that might be sacred."
- He then says he was so angry he went to walk among the graves of fallen soldiers to collect his thoughts.
- He also goes on a long antidotal story about an event in Apr 2015, where both he and the congresswoman were at a dedication of a federal building in memory of two FBI agents killed in the line of duty and basically claimed she grandstanded there using the event to take unseemly credit for securing federal funding for the building. Said that none of them present went to the press and criticized, or even stood up to express how appalled they were. He misremembered and/or misrepresented what she said, there is video contradicting his version of events.
- And then he gave the first questions to reporters who are, or know someone who is, a member of a gold-star family.

Today/Oct 20: When reports push back at Sanders and say that Kelly either misremembered or misrepresented what the Congresswoman said in 2015 and requested clarification from him Sanders said "If you want to go after General Kelly, that is up to you. If you want to get into a debate with a four-star Marine general, I think that is something highly inappropriate".


The news media has also reported on condolence calls Trump gave to other gold-star families that left the family members feeling appreciative and not offended.


That was draining…. So, I am going to keep the commentary on that distastefulness above to two points:
- I feel sickened how the WH is using the military in multiple ways (reporters can't question the Chief of Staff now?)
- Some had found comfort over the high representation of the military in the WH, thinking their military discipline and apolitical-ness would save the U.S. from Trump's worst impulses…. I suspect that vision is shattered for some.



So, back to Niger, and what happened to Sgt. La David T. Johnson, Staff Sgt. Bryan Black, Staff Sgt. Jeremiah Johnson, and Staff Sgt. Dustin Wright, and why?

WaPo: Everything we know about the Niger attack that left 4 U.S. soldiers dead.

They were doing a route that the U.S. military took about weekly for the last six months. What changed that led them to being attacked by 50 militants and dying? Just happenstance?


I've heard one matter, not mentioned in the above article, that may have been a factor that lead to this: the Muslim Travel Ban.
Remember how the 3rd Version added Chad to the list? Which apparently confused everyone.

Chad, Niger's neighbour, is a very important military ally in the region, and apparently helps all their neighbours with militants (and has among the least amount of militants in their borders among their neighbours). The U.S. and France has regional military headquarters there. And after the Muslim Travel Ban 3 was issued, which was announced Sep 24th, Chad withdrew much of their military support back home from their neighbouring countries. It does sound from other news as if the militants got, well more militant, after Chad withdrew troops….

I do not pin all the responsibility on Trump, not remotely. The world is a complicated place. These militants have prime responsibility. It does appear that maybe the Trump Muslim Travel Ban version 3.0 was a factor in annoying an ally and isolating U.S. forces in the region, making them easier pickings for these militants.

:cry:

Edited by sierraleone, 21 October 2017 - 01:35 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#2 sierraleone

sierraleone

    All things Great and Mischievous

  • Islander
  • 8,804 posts

Posted 20 October 2017 - 09:58 PM

Here is an article by Masha Gessen on Kelly's remarks yesterday:

John Kelly and the Language of the Military Coup

She definitely glean some of my subconscious readings of what I found off-putting about Kelly's remarks.

Quote

The press briefing could serve as a preview of what a military coup in this country would look like, for it was in the logic of such a coup that Kelly advanced his four arguments.
Argument 1. Those how criticize the President don't know what they're talking about because they haven't served in the military.
2. The President did the right think because he did exactly what his general told him to do.
​3. Communication between the President and a military widow is no one's business by theirs.
Now, Kelly seemed to say, we had descended into utter profanity, because the secrecy of the President’s phone call had been violated.
​4. Citizens are ranked based on their proximity to dying for their country.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#3 gsmonks

gsmonks

    Tree Psychiatrist

  • Islander
  • 4,829 posts

Posted 21 October 2017 - 09:47 AM

What's truly disgusting is that Kelly gave out propaganda instead of truthful information. The military should issue a statement and disavow any connexion with him as a matter of principle.
Capitalism is a pyramid scheme run by the 1%.

#4 sierraleone

sierraleone

    All things Great and Mischievous

  • Islander
  • 8,804 posts

Posted 21 October 2017 - 01:26 PM

I found the follow WaPo opinion piece by Quinta Jerecic very good:

John Kelly's politics of grief in the public sphere.

I feel for the loss John Kelly has been thru (though I don't think his grief is more sacred or less understandable than another's grief over the death of a loved one. Nor do I think the military are better people than regular civilians).

But that does not excuse his actions for him to use his grief and his/his son's military service as a shield to lie about, and politically attack, someone else going through grief either. And to act like the call was meant for Trump (they make it seem Trump's privacy was violated), the call was intended for the widow, Myeshia Johnson.

We don't know if the Myeshia feels Wilson speaking out (or the fall out) encroached on the "sacredness" of that condolence call or her privacy, all we can reasonably know is that she welcomed the support she and/or her mother-in-law felt from their long-time family friend Wilson's presence as she travelled to pick up the casket and her husband's body, and she put the condolence call on speaker so that all in the vehicle could share in it.

This could have been fixed by a simple apology from the President early on, letting the widow know what he meant to communicate came off wrong and he apologizes for that, and that he hopes his apology brings some small measure of solace to how his first call made her feel. (and for goodness sake don't judge how she felt about your first call in her grief). Simple, brief, keep it short. Maybe the media would have made a bigger deal of it than it was, but it would not have become the week-long coverage-consuming gong show that it was this week. He could even have earlier just taken Kelly's good advise to not make the phone call. But failing that, a simple brief apology would have put this to bed.

I hope that Kelly was actually (and is still) an honourable person, and that between his grief and misremembering (hopefully) Congresswoman Wilson's dedication in 2015, he made a big error of judgment. But it is hard to imagine that he doesn't see the military as better and above civilians and their criticism. The military reports to civilian oversight in this country and for good reason.

Kelly also either let slip parts of his worldview &/or was throwing meat to Trump's base &/or trying to protect/shield Trump from criticism over the condolence call &/or even throwing shade at Trump, or some weird dysfunction marriage of some of them, with the comments on what used to be held sacred in this country but is now treated profanely.

"I thought at least that [ the condolence call ] was sacred... You know, when I was a kid growing up, a lot of things were sacred in our country. Women were sacred, looked upon with great honour. That's obviously not the case anymore as we see from recent cases. Life - the dignity of life - is sacred. That's gone. Religion, that seems to be gone as well. Gold Star families, I think that left in the convention over the summer. But I just thought … [ ] … that might be sacred."

Again, is this representative of Kelly's worldview, just a big ol' dog whistle to Trump's base, meant to make people back off of criticism of Trump (and himself) by labelling these things (which all tie up in this event) as sacred, &/or a private smear to Trump who has, it has been greatly obviously, never held any of these things as sacred…. unless it benefited him in some way?



The funeral for Sgt. La David T. Johnson was held today. I hope it gives Myeshia Johnson and their friends and family some measure of solace.
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#5 Lord of the Sword

Lord of the Sword
  • Islander
  • 15,624 posts

Posted 22 October 2017 - 11:26 PM

I really haven't been following this story, mainly because every time I see Congresswoman Wilson in those outlandish cowboy outfits I feel like I'm watching the old movie "best little whorehouse in Texas's. Cause those outfits look like they came straight from the set of that movie.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

The last republican leaning independent on this message board. All others have been silenced and driven off, or outright banned. Only ONE remains. I guess HighLander had it right all along....In the end, there can be only ONE.

#6 yadda yadda

yadda yadda
  • Islander
  • 1,447 posts

Posted 23 October 2017 - 01:28 PM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 22 October 2017 - 11:26 PM, said:

I really haven't been following this story, mainly because every time I see Congresswoman Wilson in those outlandish cowboy outfits I feel like I'm watching the old movie "best little whorehouse in Texas's. Cause those outfits look like they came straight from the set of that movie.

I've been trying to follow the story, but every time I see or hear from the president 45 with that outlandish fake platinum blonde duck tailed head of "hair" and his facial skin tones resembling a tangerine he reminds me of a circus clown or maybe of old-timey 1960 era pro wrestler Gorgeous George. If only he'd consider wearing a cowboy hat to hide that abomination on top of his head one might be able to bear actually looking at him without laughing. And I mean those remarks as totally respectful so any other perspective of them is simply incorrect.

#7 sierraleone

sierraleone

    All things Great and Mischievous

  • Islander
  • 8,804 posts

Posted 23 October 2017 - 05:39 PM

Myeshia Johnson, the widow, today spoke to her experience being the recipient on the condolence call in a brief interview on Good Morning America this morning. Quotes:

Quote

The President said that he knew what he signed up for, but it hurts anyways. And it made me cry 'cause I was very angry at the tone of his voice and how he said he couldn't remember my husband's name. The only way he remembered my husband's name is because he told me he had my husband's report in front of him and that's when he actually said La David. I heard him stumbling on trying to remember my husband's name and that's what hurt me the most, because if my husband is out here fighting for our country and he risked his life for our country why can't you remember his name? And that's what made me upset and cry even more because my husband was an awesome soldier.

Quote

Whatever Ms. Wilson said was not fabricated. What she said was 100 percent correct.
Ms. Wilson being the long-time family friend and democratic congresswoman, who was present during the call.

Trump tweeted later this same morning:

Posted ImageDonald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump



I had a very respectful conversation with the widow of Sgt. La David Johnson, and spoke his name from beginning, without hesitation!
8:30 AM - Oct 23, 2017

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#8 Lord of the Sword

Lord of the Sword
  • Islander
  • 15,624 posts

Posted 24 October 2017 - 11:55 AM

View Postsierraleone, on 23 October 2017 - 05:39 PM, said:

Myeshia Johnson, the widow, today spoke to her experience being the recipient on the condolence call in a brief interview on Good Morning America this morning. Quotes:

Quote

The President said that he knew what he signed up for, but it hurts anyways. And it made me cry 'cause I was very angry at the tone of his voice and how he said he couldn't remember my husband's name. The only way he remembered my husband's name is because he told me he had my husband's report in front of him and that's when he actually said La David. I heard him stumbling on trying to remember my husband's name and that's what hurt me the most, because if my husband is out here fighting for our country and he risked his life for our country why can't you remember his name? And that's what made me upset and cry even more because my husband was an awesome soldier.

Quote

Whatever Ms. Wilson said was not fabricated. What she said was 100 percent correct.
Ms. Wilson being the long-time family friend and democratic congresswoman, who was present during the call.

Trump tweeted later this same morning:

Posted ImageDonald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump



I had a very respectful conversation with the widow of Sgt. La David Johnson, and spoke his name from beginning, without hesitation!
8:30 AM - Oct 23, 2017


I saw the interview the widow gave, and she comes across as far more credible than Congresswoman Wilson. As for the widow's comment about President Trump's tone of voice....The only way I could comment on that is if I heard the conversation, which I didn't hear. The widow's grief could be clouding her interpretation of Trump's tone, or Trump's tone could be exactly what the widow described. There's just no proof one way or the other on that issue. As for Trump not remembering La David's name....I'm suspicious on that. I can't see someone like Trump, especially with the soldier's name on a report right in front of him, making that kind of mistake. But, again, without having actually hearing the conversation...no proof either way.

What the widow did say that struck me as odd, and definitely weird, was that she wasn't able to actually see the body. Granted, it is probably a gruesome sight, and I wouldn't expect the actual body to be televised, but I would've expected a member of the family to be able to privately view the remains and positively identify the body. I have no idea why that wasn't allowed.

Edited to add:

There really is no "good" way to make these kind of calls. And I do find it interesting that out of the 4 killed, apparently only this one seems to have had a problem with the President's condolence call?

Edited by Lord of the Sword, 24 October 2017 - 11:57 AM.

"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

The last republican leaning independent on this message board. All others have been silenced and driven off, or outright banned. Only ONE remains. I guess HighLander had it right all along....In the end, there can be only ONE.

#9 sierraleone

sierraleone

    All things Great and Mischievous

  • Islander
  • 8,804 posts

Posted 24 October 2017 - 09:02 PM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 24 October 2017 - 11:55 AM, said:

I saw the interview the widow gave, and she comes across as far more credible than Congresswoman Wilson.

It would seem that your interpretation of her as incredible on this matter was misplaced.
What made the Congresswoman Wilson incapable of being believable or unworthy of confidence exactly?

View PostLord of the Sword, on 24 October 2017 - 11:55 AM, said:

As for the widow's comment about President Trump's tone of voice....The only way I could comment on that is if I heard the conversation, which I didn't hear. The widow's grief could be clouding her interpretation of Trump's tone, or Trump's tone could be exactly what the widow described.

What do you think would be the reasonable response to what you think/feel is a misinterpretation of your tone and/or intent in this context (someone grieving has accused you of being insensitive in various ways)?

Does it include:
1) punching down (figuratively),
2) being defensive,
3) lying,
4) deflecting/shielding yourself from criticism.

As far as I am concerned, one should
1) pull on their big boy/girl pants (figuratively, & literally if needed ;))
2) advise that that wasn't your intent
3) apologize for any unintendedly hurt feelings (note: apologies doesn't automatically mean admitting wrong-doing….)
4) re-interate your main message you wanted to pass to them (my deepest sympathies on your loss).

Saying that isn't how Trump rolls doesn't work. His and Kelly's behaviour was simply uncalled for.

View PostLord of the Sword, on 24 October 2017 - 11:55 AM, said:

There's just no proof one way or the other on that issue. As for Trump not remembering La David's name....I'm suspicious on that. I can't see someone like Trump, especially with the soldier's name on a report right in front of him, making that kind of mistake. But, again, without having actually hearing the conversation...no proof either way.

Bolding mine. Please elaborate. Who/what is this "someone" mold/archetype/personality? What characteristics or behaviour have you seen Trump exemplify to support this? I guess I am just completely mystified as to what positive personal qualities you think he has.


View PostLord of the Sword, on 24 October 2017 - 11:55 AM, said:

There really is no "good" way to make these kind of calls. And I do find it interesting that out of the 4 killed, apparently only this one seems to have had a problem with the President's condolence call?

Regarding part I bolded: That is true. Which is why it is much easier to apologize and move-on. (Edited to add: though I think that there are bad ways to make these kind of calls). I read on one article recently that Bush 2 has a gold-star relative angrily yelling at him most the call. Bush just was the bigger person in the time of that person's grief, shut up, listened, and moved on. Who was Bush to tell that person how to react to a call regarding their newly dead military relative?

As for the second sentence, everyone deals with grief in different ways. Maybe Trump did these four condolence calls back to back (they rushed out letters from the President last week after he erroneous claims about having contacted all new gold-star families), so maybe he wasn't as focused or present for the last call, and this call was the 4th one.

I do still think that regardless if he said the same sentiment on other calls and they took it well, that his sentiment "well, he knew what he was signing up for" is still an egregious thing to express to that persons widow with 2 small children. It is nearly implying fault.

She did not sign up for this. She has known him since grade school, long before the military. You fall in love who you fall in love with. You don't marry someone, plus have children with them, thinking that either of you signed up for one of you to die young, even fighting for their country, before their children grow up. Sure, it was a risk. There is a risk with all behaviour and actions in our lives. There are deadlier jobs than serving in the military. Would we say that to the surviving widow/er of any people who died logging? Even if they knew the risk? Military is not even in the top 20 deadliest jobs.



As for what happened in Niger, news came out last night that it might have been an ambush by some local terrorists and/or terrorist sympathizers (as in some locals were helping ambush the soldiers for the terrorists).

Edited by sierraleone, 24 October 2017 - 09:30 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#10 Lord of the Sword

Lord of the Sword
  • Islander
  • 15,624 posts

Posted 25 October 2017 - 01:52 AM

View Postsierraleone, on 24 October 2017 - 09:02 PM, said:


What made the Congresswoman Wilson incapable of being believable or unworthy of confidence exactly?

Her wardrobe for starters. Those glaring cowboy outfits kept giving me that 1970's flashback. And second, she's a politician who comes across as pushing a political agenda.

Quote

What do you think would be the reasonable response to what you think/feel is a misinterpretation of your tone and/or intent in this context (someone grieving has accused you of being insensitive in various ways)?

This is a trick question. What's reasonable to one might not be reasonable to someone else. We all respond to things differently.

Quote

Bolding mine. Please elaborate. Who/what is this "someone" mold/archetype/personality? What characteristics or behaviour have you seen Trump exemplify to support this? I guess I am just completely mystified as to what positive personal qualities you think he has.

Trump was a CEO of a large organization. He negotiated million dollar deals, built large buildings and golf courses, someone like that I would expect to be able to retain a lot of details, while multitasking other things. Someone like that most definitely should be able to retain the name of a fallen soldier he is making a call about, especially with the soldier's name on a report in front of him.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

The last republican leaning independent on this message board. All others have been silenced and driven off, or outright banned. Only ONE remains. I guess HighLander had it right all along....In the end, there can be only ONE.

#11 Lord of the Sword

Lord of the Sword
  • Islander
  • 15,624 posts

Posted 25 October 2017 - 09:34 AM

http://video.foxnews...#sp=show-clips.

Another widow of the fallen soldiers speaking out. Apparently she had a completely different reaction to President Trump's call. Michelle Black said she was grateful and that Trump talking with their children made things easier, if only for a moment.

It took me awhile to find a link to that, apparently the Anti Trump fake news media isn't reporting it, and google seems to be doing it's best to hide it as well.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

The last republican leaning independent on this message board. All others have been silenced and driven off, or outright banned. Only ONE remains. I guess HighLander had it right all along....In the end, there can be only ONE.

#12 sierraleone

sierraleone

    All things Great and Mischievous

  • Islander
  • 8,804 posts

Posted 25 October 2017 - 03:35 PM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 25 October 2017 - 01:52 AM, said:

View Postsierraleone, on 24 October 2017 - 09:02 PM, said:

What made the Congresswoman Wilson incapable of being believable or unworthy of confidence exactly?

Her wardrobe for starters. Those glaring cowboy outfits kept giving me that 1970's flashback. And second, she's a politician who comes across as pushing a political agenda.

What exactly were you judging her on? Her fashion sense, or her veracity and honesty? Does one have anything to do with the other?

View PostLord of the Sword, on 25 October 2017 - 09:34 AM, said:

http://video.foxnews...#sp=show-clips.

Another widow of the fallen soldiers speaking out. Apparently she had a completely different reaction to President Trump's call. Michelle Black said she was grateful and that Trump talking with their children made things easier, if only for a moment.

It took me awhile to find a link to that, apparently the Anti Trump fake news media isn't reporting it, and google seems to be doing it's best to hide it as well.

Are you challenging, doubting, or objecting to Myeshia Johnson's, her mother-in-law's, Congresswoman Wilson's accounts of their experiences? (and at least partly John Kelly's account, regarding knowing what he signed up for).

If you leave the stove on after you are done cooking 90% of the time, it doesn't really matter if on the 20th time you are cooking you forget again and this time the house burns down ;)

You've already said that maybe it was a misunderstanding, and maybe not a condolence-call mess made by Trump. Is this just to support that supposition, that Trump probably was just as "good" at this condolence call as the others? Do you think the "he knew what he signed up for" is not the wrong way to make a condolence call to a widow?

It is hard to judge feelings. They just are.
I don't mean they just are hard to judge (though that too), I mean that feelings are what they are.
They are there whether we want them or not, whether they are "reasonable" or not, whether they are helpful or not, as long as they want to be.
That doesn't mean that people shouldn't apologize when they hurt other people's feelings. And that is what Trump should have done, but he is practically incapable of it.

Edited by sierraleone, 25 October 2017 - 03:49 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#13 sierraleone

sierraleone

    All things Great and Mischievous

  • Islander
  • 8,804 posts

Posted 25 October 2017 - 04:00 PM

Forgot the earlier post :)

View PostLord of the Sword, on 25 October 2017 - 01:52 AM, said:

Quote

What do you think would be the reasonable response to what you think/feel is a misinterpretation of your tone and/or intent in this context (someone grieving has accused you of being insensitive in various ways)?

This is a trick question. What's reasonable to one might not be reasonable to someone else. We all respond to things differently.

I am not talking about the initial condolence call wording, or even Myeshia Johnson's subjective experience of the call/tone.
I am talking about Trump's response, and his response in his *role* as POTUS.
Roles tend to come with certain expectations, is that fair enough to say?
Maybe the voters who voted for Trump wanted to see something different done in that role, but I don't think that it including that when gold-star family/friends share that a call from him hurt them that that including attacking and lying about them.

View PostLord of the Sword, on 25 October 2017 - 01:52 AM, said:

Trump was a CEO of a large organization. He negotiated million dollar deals, built large buildings and golf courses, someone like that I would expect to be able to retain a lot of details, while multitasking other things. Someone like that most definitely should be able to retain the name of a fallen soldier he is making a call about, especially with the soldier's name on a report in front of him.

Again, I tend to think Trump selfish and concerned with himself (and his self-image) above all things. I think Trump does whatever he thinks is advantageous to him, or makes him look good (and his concept of that is markedly off from what most people would define that as for themselves). You might say forgetting the guys name doesn't make him look good…. My opinion (YMMV) but he did this condolence call partly to one-up his false claims on other President's not-calling gold-star families, and to meet the claim that he did the day before he made the call. Basically I don't think he was largely motivated by feeling for these gold-star families, that he did this largely as part of enlarging his own sense of self, so yes, I think he probably (unintentionally) hit the wrong notes on this one.

He doesn't like to get bogged down in policy details, why would it be different here?

I also think Trump's memory isn't what it used to be. If so, that is not necessarily any fault of his own, but if true it is a consideration for those in the administration when working with/for Trump. You see clips of old interviews and you can see him string words together in sensible sentences. Not that I agreed with much of what he said ;) But he doesn't even seem capable of that now.

Edited by sierraleone, 25 October 2017 - 04:13 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


0 user(s) are browsing this forum

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users