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Alabama's Roy Moore


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#1 yadda yadda

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 05:40 PM

I wonder if former Alabama Supreme Court Chief Justice and current Republican Senatorial candidate Roy Moore totally understands the Ten Commandments he so reveres. Avoiding the commission of adultery does not mean diddling 14 year olds is ok. Just because they're not yet adults does not mean open season, Roy.

Edited by yadda yadda, 09 November 2017 - 05:41 PM.


#2 gsmonks

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 11:36 PM

That is the thing about the Religious Right: they're lying hypocrites who only pretend at religion. Like politics, religion is just a game they play, and hide behind. If anything they're less religious than the non-believers they rail about.
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#3 gsmonks

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 11:38 PM

Come to think of it, they rail at non-believers for not buying into their little game, because those that aren't sucked into playing the game have them at a disadvantage.
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#4 sierraleone

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Posted 10 November 2017 - 04:18 PM

And there is apparently a person who don't even care if Roy Moore is guilty of diddling a 14 year old because the alternative would be to "support the entire democratic party", and another saying that if it is true it is no big deal because of the biblical couple of Joseph and Mary…. I'd go find the articles I read them from and link them if I knew no vomit would rise in my throat reading them again…..

And the "if its true he should" "step aside/down - drop out - resign - etc" sentiment from the GOP (The Gropey Old Pervert party?) appears fair on its face. I mean "if it is true" right? However, you make such a firm statement on purported firm principals and integrity, and your party is going to end up financing supporting his campaign and/or caucusing with him….. Isn't some examination of whether these accusations are credible incredible important to deciding how your party organization is going to treat him, a suspected/alleged child molester? If not, what does that demonstrate?

Also, Huckabee-Sanders comment, presumably on behalf of the President:

Quote

"Like most Americans, the president believes that we cannot allow a mere allegation — in this case, one from many years ago — to destroy a person's life. However, the president also believes that if these allegations are true, Judge Moore will do the right thing and step aside.

Note the wording there. If these allegations are true Moore will do the right thing and step aside. So that with that pairing of ideas that gives a presumption that if Moore *does not* step aside, then the allegations are not true. Because if it is true Moore *will* step aside. At least as far as the President's beliefs go.

Unless a Republican does a write-in campaign (maybe the guy that lost to him in the primary?), I am not sure I actually see Moore loosing the Alabama election. Even though that would mean him winning over a man who actually did what he could to protect young girls when he prosecuted the KKK member(s) who bombed black church(es) killing young girls. Anyone think differently?

Edited by sierraleone, 10 November 2017 - 05:11 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#5 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 12:51 PM

So Moore, who has been in public service, for how many decades, held public office how many times, and not a word about any sexual misconduct? Not until a political paper decides to "find" these women, and decides not to release this during the primary, but wait until Moore is going up against a Democrat...Yeah, that's not suspicious AT ALL. :sarcasm:

And I would remind those who seem to be expressing the : "he was accused, he must be guilty," in this thread of a few people: Tawana Brawley comes right to mind, as does the woman who accused the Duke Players, And I'm certain there are plenty of other false accusers out there. Yes, sexual assault and child molestation are serious crimes. But Moore hasn't been convicted in a court of law on them. Granted, the mainstream media and everyone else is trying their best to convict him in the court of public opinion. Given the serious nature of these allegations, we should make damn certain they are true. We don't want to Nifong anyone else.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

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#6 sierraleone

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 02:30 PM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 13 November 2017 - 12:51 PM, said:

So Moore, who has been in public service, for how many decades, held public office how many times, and not a word about any sexual misconduct? Not until a political paper decides to "find" these women, and decides not to release this during the primary, but wait until Moore is going up against a Democrat...Yeah, that's not suspicious AT ALL. :sarcasm:

McConnell has now called on Moore to end campaign, and that he believes the women. And it could arguable be easier for Republicans to let him run, win his seat, and have 2/3 of the Senate vote to unseat him, and then have the Alabama Governor replace Moore with another Republican.

As the #MeToo campaign is showing, many victims keep such event secrets for years or decades. Heck, the Catholic priest sex scandals shows that prior. Historically victims are hardly ever believed.

I've read too many articles to find it now, but I know one woman said she considered coming forward during a campaign he was running around 2000. However, being midish 30s at the time she worried about her children who were school age. I wouldn't be surprised if reporters were digging around during the Primary but could not get all the information, to journalist standards, reportable before the primary was done. Good solid reporting takes time. I heard/read about another similar story, a political sex scandal. Journalists had the story ready to go, just days before another election, but they were missing one thing, asking the politician for his comment (which means revealing their cards/info). He told them he'd give them his story, and disprove these allegations, but all he was doing was stalling for the election. So yes, the story came out after the election, which he won. It was some politician in Oregon in the 80s or 90s IIRC (ETA: found his name, Robert Packwood, resigned in 1995).

I also think an election for national office invites more scrutiny than state or local office. Mainly because there is a national audience and national press interested. Who also may be less worried about being run out of the state for what the report.

These women are still risking much, one has been doxed and faced death threats.

Quote

And I would remind those who seem to be expressing the : "he was accused, he must be guilty," in this thread of a few people: Tawana Brawley comes right to mind, as does the woman who accused the Duke Players, And I'm certain there are plenty of other false accusers out there. Yes, sexual assault and child molestation are serious crimes. But Moore hasn't been convicted in a court of law on them. Granted, the mainstream media and everyone else is trying their best to convict him in the court of public opinion. Given the serious nature of these allegations, we should make damn certain they are true. We don't want to Nifong anyone else.

Those cases, from what I understand, were people claim to be victims, there were no other victims of the same alleged perp(s), and there was no evidence, OR EVEN collaborated witness.

I think the thing people who outright disbelieving the allegations have to consider that this is never going to see the inside of a courtroom (unless as a defamation suit maybe). We have to make a decision on whether, based on the information we have, we (or rather Alabamans) want this person in a highly respected and powerful position of representing all of Alabama. His reputation may be sullied, but would it really be, as Huckabee-Sanders said, that it would "ruin his life". To not represent Alabama at the highest level? Really? What would it take to convince you that allegations from 40 years ago are well-supported enough to require him to step down?

Did you also hear that some of his contemporaneous co-workers from that time period had said, "Yeah, he was into/pursued teenage girls, we all thought it was weird".

So, 4 women claim improprieties, they have 30 witnesses verifying parts of their story.

Have you read the original Washington Post article? If not, please do.
Then also please listen to/read his interview with Sean Hannity, who was giving him leading questions to try to get Moore to answer the "appropriate" way, but Moore continues to equivocate.
I mean, how hard is to say "after I graduated college/university I would have never knowingly dated a woman under 20". I mean that still leaves wriggle room incase a woman misrepresented her age. it is not like he is accused of jay-walking some November day 40 years ago, or even false claims on a document. They are asking if he dated women 19 & under, when he was in his 30s and a district attorney. Apparently that is not such a bright line in his estimation.


If that doesn't convince you that something is there there, then what will?
I can tell you what would convince me that he is probably innocent. Can you tell me what would convince you that he is probably guilty, short of a time machine?

Edited by sierraleone, 13 November 2017 - 10:15 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#7 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 04:00 PM

View Postsierraleone, on 13 November 2017 - 02:30 PM, said:


Those cases, from what I understand, were people claim to be victims, there were no other victims of the same alleged perp(s), and there was no evidence, OR EVEN collaborated witness.

You're right, in those cases it was only one accuser.

Quote

I think the thing people who outright disbelieving the allegations have to consider that this is never going to see the inside of a courtroom (unless as a defamation suit maybe). We have to make a decision on whether, based on the information we have, we (or rather Alabamans) want this person in a highly respected and powerful position of representing all of Alabama. His reputation may be sullied, but would it really be, as Huckabee-Sanders said, that it would "ruin his life". To not represent Alabama at the highest level? Really? What would it take to convince you that allegations from 40 years ago are well-supported enough to require him to step down?

I don't automatically think he is innocent. I'm honest enough to admit that I don't know whether or not the allegations are true or not.

Quote


If that doesn't convince you that something is there there, then what will?
I can tell you what would convince me that he is probably innocent. Can you tell me what would convince you that he is probably guilty, short of a time machine?

I haven't read the article, but I did listen to the Hannity interview. You're correct, Hannity was asking very leading questions, and Moore's answers left a lot to be desired. I took his hedging of the questions to be typical politician never directly answering a question though. Is there doubt in my mind about whether or not the allegations are true? Yes, there is doubt. I'm not sure if they are true, but neither am I sure he is innocent either. If I were able to vote for him, would I? Honestly, right now, I don't know if I would vote for him or not. I think it most likely I would stay home and not vote either way. But neither do I think he is absolutely guilty. I just don't know. The timing of it is VERY suspicious, and as for the "quality journalism taking time" bit...this is the Washington Post: They left quality and unbiased journalism behind a long time ago,
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

The last republican leaning independent on this message board. All others have been silenced and driven off, or outright banned. Only ONE remains. I guess HighLander had it right all along....In the end, there can be only ONE.

#8 gsmonks

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 04:00 PM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 13 November 2017 - 12:51 PM, said:

So Moore, who has been in public service, for how many decades, held public office how many times, and not a word about any sexual misconduct? Not until a political paper decides to "find" these women, and decides not to release this during the primary, but wait until Moore is going up against a Democrat...Yeah, that's not suspicious AT ALL. :sarcasm:

And I would remind those who seem to be expressing the : "he was accused, he must be guilty," in this thread of a few people: Tawana Brawley comes right to mind, as does the woman who accused the Duke Players, And I'm certain there are plenty of other false accusers out there. Yes, sexual assault and child molestation are serious crimes. But Moore hasn't been convicted in a court of law on them. Granted, the mainstream media and everyone else is trying their best to convict him in the court of public opinion. Given the serious nature of these allegations, we should make damn certain they are true. We don't want to Nifong anyone else.

If you saw him raping a 12-year-old in the middle of the street in broad daylight, because he's running for the GOP you'd probably say something like "she asked for it" or "it's not what it looks like".

1 woman accusing someone of sexual misconduct is an allegation.

When they're coming out by the bus load, when they don't know one another, when they have nothing political to gain, it's evidence.

Moore has been cited for this type of behaviour for many decades, by his peers among others.

Is there any part of that you don't understand?
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#9 sierraleone

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 04:05 PM

And there is a 5th accuser, per this NYT article. And it in this case the accusation is not dating a teenager, but of actual overt sexual assault.
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#10 sierraleone

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 05:43 PM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 13 November 2017 - 04:00 PM, said:

Is there doubt in my mind about whether or not the allegations are true? Yes, there is doubt. I'm not sure if they are true, but neither am I sure he is innocent either. If I were able to vote for him, would I? Honestly, right now, I don't know if I would vote for him or not. I think it most likely I would stay home and not vote either way. But neither do I think he is absolutely guilty. I just don't know. The timing of it is VERY suspicious,

That think should be "know that", I think. Think implies you made a judgement call to some degree or another, or at the very least your pondering is taking you more in that direction than the other (which is still a judgment call, though maybe subconsciously).

You would prefer to stay home instead of looking into the other candidate(s) to see if you felt they were worth your vote? Does it depend on how much on the side that they are guilty that you are thinking? Are you satisfied with your fellow constituents making that determination for you? On such a stark case of a possible sexual criminal making decision for your community/state/country? That wouldn't necessarily make  you an uncommon type at all, consider turn-out in the federal election last year.

LOTS, if alleged sex crimes had been pointed at Democratic candidate, for an election you could vote in….
Would that increase or decrease your chance of going to the voting booth?
Take out any consideration of polls, or how competitive or not your district normally is for either party. You have no idea whether this Democratic person, accused of sex crimes by multiple women (one below the age of consent, one at the age of consent), is going to win or loose the election.
Do you stay home, or do you go to the voting booth? If it is go to the voting booth, why is your answer different for a Republican candidate?

Edited by sierraleone, 13 November 2017 - 05:44 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#11 sierraleone

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 06:59 PM

NewYorker: Locals Were Troubled by Roy Moore's Interactions with Teen Girls at the Gadsden Mall
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#12 gsmonks

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 09:11 PM

Dunno why, but as I was reading this, the scene from The Sound Of Music, where Nazi-boy is courting the daughter, came to mind. The song is "Sixteen, Going On Seventeen", or whatever the title is, and the kid is warning the girl about all the nasty things grown men are going to want to do with her, and that he (a Nazi), will be her protector. Despite the appearance of being light fluff, the scene has multiple dark and perverse undertones.

Nazi-boy could easily be Roy Moore here, and GOP churchiness does echo Fascist sentiment.
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#13 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 01:41 AM

View Postsierraleone, on 13 November 2017 - 04:05 PM, said:

And there is a 5th accuser, per this NYT article. And it in this case the accusation is not dating a teenager, but of actual overt sexual assault.

I saw the press conference with the 5th woman, and I saw her "proof": the inscription by Moore in her yearbook. That inscription was the missing "proof" as far as I'm concerned. While the inscription itself isn't a crime, it was downright creepy.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

The last republican leaning independent on this message board. All others have been silenced and driven off, or outright banned. Only ONE remains. I guess HighLander had it right all along....In the end, there can be only ONE.

#14 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 01:54 AM

View Postsierraleone, on 13 November 2017 - 05:43 PM, said:



You would prefer to stay home instead of looking into the other candidate(s) to see if you felt they were worth your vote? Does it depend on how much on the side that they are guilty that you are thinking? Are you satisfied with your fellow constituents making that determination for you? On such a stark case of a possible sexual criminal making decision for your community/state/country? That wouldn't necessarily make  you an uncommon type at all, consider turn-out in the federal election last year.
The staying home for the election was a possible option when I was uncertain. Voting for a Democrat, someone who wants me and mine to fund the octomoms of the world...I voted Democrat one time, back in 2008. And looking at what I got for that vote, since the guy I voted for one time was elected...I can't see myself voting that way again, except in one possible situation. A family member of mine, who is into politics, and who unfortunately is a Democrat. If he ran for office in a race I could vote in...Well, family does trump politics (pun intended).
Now having said that, the inscription by Moore in the 5th woman's high school yearbook is downright creepy. While it isn't criminal by itself, there would be no way I could vote for a man who wrote that type of inscription in a teenager's yearbook.

Quote

LOTS, if alleged sex crimes had been pointed at Democratic candidate, for an election you could vote in….
Would that increase or decrease your chance of going to the voting booth?
Take out any consideration of polls, or how competitive or not your district normally is for either party. You have no idea whether this Democratic person, accused of sex crimes by multiple women (one below the age of consent, one at the age of consent), is going to win or loose the election.
Do you stay home, or do you go to the voting booth? If it is go to the voting booth, why is your answer different for a Republican candidate?


If these allegations were made against a Democrat in a race I could vote it, it wouldn't increase or decrease my going to the polls. Nor would it matter, because there would most likely be no way I would be voting for that Democrat anyway.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

The last republican leaning independent on this message board. All others have been silenced and driven off, or outright banned. Only ONE remains. I guess HighLander had it right all along....In the end, there can be only ONE.

#15 Omega

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 12:51 PM

I've just got to say, this is a man who has repeatedly been stripped of his position because he refuses to uphold his oath to the laws and constitution of the United States. Thinking he would suddenly have a change of heart and become loyal to his country and a man of his word when he took that same oath in the Senate was always insane. He was disqualified to hold any public office before we found out all this. The fact that a man this disgusting and unprincipled and unamerican still stands a good chance of winning this election is the problem.

#16 Omega

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 12:53 PM

I'd also like to point out that this is yet another example of why our system of elections is completely insane. What if we found out all this the day after he won the election? Well, too bad for the people of Alabama, they have no recourse. Enjoy being represented by this godless sack of sh*t for six years! Or what if we found out the day after he lost that it was all lies? Same problem.

#17 gsmonks

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 03:07 PM

This is why oaths and swearing on bibles is outdated nonsense. Both are meaningless, and always have been.

Take Jeff Sessions as another example. He'll swear on his mother's grave and on a stack of bibles that he's not a lying sack of sh*t and a "good christian".

"Good christian" is a typical godder double entendre. To a godder, being a "good christian" often means lying in order to advance christianity.

The GOP is rife with this type of corrupt-minded subtext. Being a "good conservative" and having "conservative values" likewise means lying to advance christian/conservative "values", aka the christian/conservative agenda, which is not the same thing.

Telling the truth and not bearing false witness is something godders and christians teach their kids and talk about in church, but it's certainly not something they practice in everyday life.

When confronted about this, people like Sessions and Moore invariably use weasel-words such as "more complex" and "not as simple as that" when it concerns their own actions.

The truth is that it is as simple as that. They just won't admit it.
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#18 Elara

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Posted 17 November 2017 - 09:48 PM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 14 November 2017 - 01:54 AM, said:

If these allegations were made against a Democrat in a race I could vote it, it wouldn't increase or decrease my going to the polls. Nor would it matter, because there would most likely be no way I would be voting for that Democrat anyway.

Wait. So you never vote Democrat?
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I want a job in HRC's "shadow" cabinet. Good pay, really easy hours, lots of time off. Can't go wrong.

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#19 sierraleone

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Posted Yesterday, 07:10 AM

Ugh, Alabama's Govenor, Ms. Kay Ivey, says while the timing (of the allegations) is suspicious she has no reason to disbelieve the woman. But she is still voting for Roy Moore.
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


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