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Crisis On Earth-X

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#21 Christopher

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Posted 29 November 2017 - 06:56 PM

View PostLambsilencer, on 29 November 2017 - 06:18 PM, said:

Speaking of Jessie Quick, I think it was a bad choice to let her head back to Earth-2, which basically meant writing her out. I'd much rather preferred her to stick around than Wally, whom I find pretty bland and uninspired.

The way they dropped her feels like it was done for reasons of actor availability rather than the writers' wishes. Given the option, they'd probably have kept her around. I agree that in an ideal world, I'd be happy to have her on Team Flash regularly.



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I loved the seriousness of the third episode, which was essentially the "Flash" episode. But it had much more of an "Arrow" vibe, with the Nazis and evil Lance (which was a truly nice and unanticipated twist) having seemingly won. The imagery, the dark and lamenting score, that was powerful stuff that resonated strongly what a torrid situation it all was.

Yeah... the Arrow episode felt more like The Flash (set wholly in Central City and STAR Labs) and the Flash segment felt more like Arrow. It's odd that they didn't just flip them, and let those shows' production teams handle the parts that were more in their respective comfort zones. But I guess they figured it was simpler to move just one show from its regular time slot than two, and it hardly mattered which was which from the audience's perspective.


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But the final episode was so much fun on so many levels. All the heroes joining the fight, the gigantic fight scenes, Killer Frost creating an ice way right up to the Waverider for her, Amaya and Zari. It was all just awesome to watch and relish in.

I wasn't entirely satisfied with how it ended. I would've liked Supergirl to try harder to save Overgirl, and conversely it doesn't seem to make sense for the Flash to just let Thawne go rather than at least trying to capture and imprison him. I would've rather seen Thawne flee when the tide turned against him.


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I think it's bold to end Professor Stein's journey in the crossover, since all those episodes had so very little (if anything at all) in common with the shows they represented.

The Legends part came closest. It featured the Stein/Jax resolution and was set mostly on the Waverider, as well as being the only part to include Ray, Nate, Amaya, or Zari.


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But, it was done very beautifully. Victor Garber and Franz Drameh knocked it out of the park with their moving, emotional performances.

Yup. There have been times when I've felt Garber was phoning it in, but he was in top form here. And I wasn't too impressed with Drameh's acting back in season 1, but he's certainly changed my mind by now.

It was interesting to see them play up how much Jax saw Stein as a father figure. It's certainly been a better father-figure role for Garber than the one I first knew him from, Jack Bristow on Alias. I was impressed by Garber's acting there, but I came to loathe his character.


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The funeral was tasteful and moving, too. Some people said that the crossover better had ended there, but, even though I like it dark sometimes, it would have been too much of a downer to end all this.

Yeah, they needed to end on something positive and life-affirming. Martin's loss was tragic, but he willingly gave his life for the greater good, to ensure a world where love and happiness and human kindness could still exist. So ending with the wedding helped reinforce that hopeful outcome.



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The double wedding at the end is discussed controversial in the shipper world. I for one didn't mind it per se, but found the execution rather poor. Barry and Iris invited everyone and their plus-one for the ceremony, yet in the end, they went from not wanting to get married anymore to getting their in a matter of minutes. It was sad that not even Cisco, Caitlin and Joe were around when they hitched. It made the whole thing so much less an event, that I started to wonder why they bothered with the big festivities in the first place, if, when all was said and done, such a small, private, and shared affair seemed to suffice.

Well, the real-world reason is that it was probably too expensive and too much of a scheduling nightmare to do two big wedding scenes. But there's also a story logic to it. You don't want to repeat yourself, and expectations are set up to be subverted. So you start by giving everyone all the big pageantry and ceremony and gathering of friends, then interrupt it with the big struggle, and then bring it down to the most intimate level, strip away all the rest and focus on just the couple(s) and what they feel for each other. People tend to assume that the climax of an epic story needs to be the biggest, most spectacular part, but it's often better to put the spectacle earlier and focus the climax on a smaller, more intensely personal scale.

Note that they did the same thing with Martin's death. They could've had all the Legends and Team Flash gathering to witness the final moments of their friend, but instead they kept it intimate, just Martin and Jax with no distractions. Sometimes the most important moments are small and personal.



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To sum it up, this crossover was some of the best superhero TV that has ever been done. Aside from those very minor quibbles mentioned above, I loved every second of it.Next year, rather go the smaller route than trying to top it. This cannot be topped, at least not in terms of quality. More, bigger, and it gets messy. But for what this was, it truly was so much more than one hell of a ride. It was absolutely freaking epic!

Yeah. As fun as this was, it also suffered from being so cluttered that many characters and story points were given short shrift. They should go smaller next time.


So, let's see. What happened here that will or might have ramifications for the individual shows going forward?
  • Barry and Iris are married.
  • Oliver and Felicity are married.
  • Stein is dead.
  • Thawne is not dead, again.
  • A version of Snart is back.
I'm tempted to add Killer Frost embracing her heroic side, but we didn't get enough of that to know whether Frost has really become heroic or was just exemplifying the venerable trope that even American villains hate Nazis.

As for what didn't happen to have a lasting impact, I'd say the biggest disappointment is that Barry didn't help Kara get out of her "I don't want to be human or have feelings anymore" funk. Also, it isn't yet clear whether Team Arrow's participation in fighting off the Nazi invasion will have any effect on Oliver's current legal woes back in Star City, but it seems unlikely. (Damn, if only that anti-vigilante vote had been a week later.)

Edited by Christopher, 29 November 2017 - 06:56 PM.

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#22 sierraleone

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Posted 29 November 2017 - 10:33 PM

View PostChristopher, on 28 November 2017 - 08:11 AM, said:

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I wonder who the Fuhrer is and whether we will meet him in the cross-over?

Two guesses: either it'll be some surprise doppelganger of an Arrowverse character (Damien Darhk? Malcolm Merlyn? Martin Stein?), or they'll drop hints implying that it's Trump.

My instant reaction was would it make sense for the next Nazi leader to be non-German? But world-domination gives a 'empire' lots of options. Then I remembered, Trump is paternally of German-stock, so to speak (and maternally Scottish), was born 1946 as a second generation American on his father's side and first generation on his mother's.
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#23 Christopher

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Posted 29 November 2017 - 10:50 PM

Well, it was clarified in Parts 3-4 that Dark Arrow/Oliver Queen-X was the Fuhrer. Which is just one of the many bits of the story that's best not to think about too much.
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#24 Niko

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 09:53 AM

View PostChristopher, on 29 November 2017 - 06:56 PM, said:

So, let's see. What happened here that will or might have ramifications for the individual shows going forward?
  • Stein is dead.

Plus, Jax is powerless.  I assume/hope the show will rectify that at some point, so he's not hanging around the Waverider just to be the mechanic.
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#25 Christopher

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 10:03 AM

View PostNiko, on 30 November 2017 - 09:53 AM, said:

Plus, Jax is powerless.  I assume/hope the show will rectify that at some point, so he's not hanging around the Waverider just to be the mechanic.

As Jax mentioned last week, Sara's lack of superpowers hasn't stopped her from being an effective team member. They also did an arc last season where Ray lost his supersuit and was powerless for a few weeks, and had to prove to himself that he was still of value to the team, although it was temporary.
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#26 Lambsilencer

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 11:21 AM

View PostChristopher, on 29 November 2017 - 06:56 PM, said:

View PostLambsilencer, on 29 November 2017 - 06:18 PM, said:

Speaking of Jessie Quick, I think it was a bad choice to let her head back to Earth-2, which basically meant writing her out. I'd much rather preferred her to stick around than Wally, whom I find pretty bland and uninspired.

The way they dropped her feels like it was done for reasons of actor availability rather than the writers' wishes. Given the option, they'd probably have kept her around. I agree that in an ideal world, I'd be happy to have her on Team Flash regularly.

I figured it had something to do with the availability of Violett Beane, I thought she was starring on another show. But I couldn't find anything on IMDB that fit that theory. But of course, it's still very possible that she was not available somehow.


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But the final episode was so much fun on so many levels. All the heroes joining the fight, the gigantic fight scenes, Killer Frost creating an ice way right up to the Waverider for her, Amaya and Zari. It was all just awesome to watch and relish in.

I wasn't entirely satisfied with how it ended. I would've liked Supergirl to try harder to save Overgirl, and conversely it doesn't seem to make sense for the Flash to just let Thawne go rather than at least trying to capture and imprison him. I would've rather seen Thawne flee when the tide turned against him.

Yes, I also found it sad that they killed Overgirl off so casually, like it was the obviously logical thing to do. I hoped they would find a way to save her. The thing with Thawne bugged me, too. That was way out-of-character for Barry. This was the guy who killed his mother. Killing Thawne would have been morally questionable, and it's good that he didn't do that. But letting him just go seemed contrived, to say the least. One might say that this makes Barry the better person than Kara, who just opted to let Overgirl die. But it's not that easy, as there was probably no time to save her at this point. But yeah, she could have tried harder.

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The double wedding at the end is discussed controversial in the shipper world. I for one didn't mind it per se, but found the execution rather poor. Barry and Iris invited everyone and their plus-one for the ceremony, yet in the end, they went from not wanting to get married anymore to getting their in a matter of minutes. It was sad that not even Cisco, Caitlin and Joe were around when they hitched. It made the whole thing so much less an event, that I started to wonder why they bothered with the big festivities in the first place, if, when all was said and done, such a small, private, and shared affair seemed to suffice.

Well, the real-world reason is that it was probably too expensive and too much of a scheduling nightmare to do two big wedding scenes. But there's also a story logic to it. You don't want to repeat yourself, and expectations are set up to be subverted. So you start by giving everyone all the big pageantry and ceremony and gathering of friends, then interrupt it with the big struggle, and then bring it down to the most intimate level, strip away all the rest and focus on just the couple(s) and what they feel for each other. People tend to assume that the climax of an epic story needs to be the biggest, most spectacular part, but it's often better to put the spectacle earlier and focus the climax on a smaller, more intensely personal scale.

Note that they did the same thing with Martin's death. They could've had all the Legends and Team Flash gathering to witness the final moments of their friend, but instead they kept it intimate, just Martin and Jax with no distractions. Sometimes the most important moments are small and personal.

Valid points. I didn't have a problem that the wedding was smaller, it actually was a nice change to the bigger one at the beginning. And in hindsight, it probably made sense to have Caitlin (and Cisco,IIRC) at Stein's funeral, as they were closer friends in the past. And then having them at the wedding as well so shortly after would probably feel a bit forced. But story-wise, I don't get why they didn't keep Kara and Alex around, as they were there anyway. To have them leave just before that seemed a bit odd. And it just would have been nice to have Joe see his daughter getting married. But the smaller, more private wedding was not a problem for me.

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To sum it up, this crossover was some of the best superhero TV that has ever been done. Aside from those very minor quibbles mentioned above, I loved every second of it.Next year, rather go the smaller route than trying to top it. This cannot be topped, at least not in terms of quality. More, bigger, and it gets messy. But for what this was, it truly was so much more than one hell of a ride. It was absolutely freaking epic!

Yeah. As fun as this was, it also suffered from being so cluttered that many characters and story points were given short shrift. They should go smaller next time.

Absolutely. They took it to the absolute limit here. Next year, the scope can only be different, and smaller. Otherwise I think it won't work anymore.


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So, let's see. What happened here that will or might have ramifications for the individual shows going forward?
  • Barry and Iris are married.
  • Oliver and Felicity are married.
  • Stein is dead.
  • Thawne is not dead, again.
  • A version of Snart is back.
I'm tempted to add Killer Frost embracing her heroic side, but we didn't get enough of that to know whether Frost has really become heroic or was just exemplifying the venerable trope that even American villains hate Nazis.

As for what didn't happen to have a lasting impact, I'd say the biggest disappointment is that Barry didn't help Kara get out of her "I don't want to be human or have feelings anymore" funk. Also, it isn't yet clear whether Team Arrow's participation in fighting off the Nazi invasion will have any effect on Oliver's current legal woes back in Star City, but it seems unlikely. (Damn, if only that anti-vigilante vote had been a week later.)

Well, since Killer Frost is only around when Caitlin gets angry or scared, I think that she will always (unless the writers find a way to change that) be a reluctant hero. But we had evil Killer Frost last season. I hope the character stays in the morally grey area, with the occasional tip towards the bad and the good, where the latter is - in other words, the Caitlin part.

I would have liked to have a bit more of Mick Rory. He was so much fun in the first half, but his involvement got pretty reduced in the second. So, I missed his snappy one-liners quite a bit.

As for Barry and Kara - I get what you mean. But I think that it's better that this change back from the rougher Kara will be gradual, over several episodes, and has to happen when the show is just "Supergirl". Based on the darker title-card and the less euphoric theme, I think this is a season-long journey for her.
And I think that Sara was able to pull Alex back from the brink of alcoholism and other destructive behaviour. To have that similar change happen to both Danvers sisters in the same episode would have been a bit repetitive.

Greets
Lambsilencer

Edited by Lambsilencer, 30 November 2017 - 06:29 PM.


#27 Christopher

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 01:36 PM

It just occurred to me: The reason for the invasion was to steal Supergirl's heart (err, literally, not romantically). So if Kara hadn't had her spur-of-the-moment impulse to accept the invitation to the wedding (which I assume Cisco delivered by breach mail), would the Nazis have invaded Earth-38 instead, while Barry and Iris's wedding went off without a hitch?
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#28 Lambsilencer

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 02:12 PM

^^ Probably. Another question is: How did the Nazis know that Supergirl was on Earth-1? Did I miss an explanation (or simply don't remember), or was none given?

Greets
Lambsilencer

#29 Christopher

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 03:23 PM

View PostLambsilencer, on 30 November 2017 - 02:12 PM, said:

^^ Probably. Another question is: How did the Nazis know that Supergirl was on Earth-1? Did I miss an explanation (or simply don't remember), or was none given?

There was a throwaway line about "We've been watching you." I took that to mean that the big dimensional portal McGuffin on Earth-X allowed monitoring other realities as well as traveling to them. It's also possible that they had breachers like Cisco on their world, and used them to spy on other Earths. Breachers, like speedsters, seem to be a recurring power type in the Arrowmultiverse; known breachers include Vibe from Earth-1 and Gypsy and her father Breacher from Earth-19, and "Girls' Night Out" implied that there's a second, shadier breacher in Central City (since Killer Frost had arranged with someone to breach off Earth-1 to escape Amunet Black, but that can't have been Cisco since he didn't yet know KF was back). So that's two worlds with at least two breachers apiece, and so it stands to reason there are breachers on other Earths.

Or, heck, maybe they just get The CW on Earth-X.

Edited by Christopher, 30 November 2017 - 03:25 PM.

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#30 Lambsilencer

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 03:40 PM

^^ Good points, all of them. Thanks.

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Or, heck, maybe they just get The CW on Earth-X.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Greets
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#31 QueenTiye

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 05:43 PM

Concerning the double wedding: The definition of elopement is that no one but those who are necessary is invited.  It's why people don't like elopement - til today it feels... wrong.  But there are reasons to do it and I think that the reasons for both couples were valid - among other things, superheroes don't have all this extra time - and they took all the heroes off the streets for a wedding.  That seems selfish when getting married doesn't require that.  For another - they both have had violent interventions on their public weddings - why would they NOT elope? Personally - I applauded.  I thought that the moment was earned and wonderful.

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#32 Christopher

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 07:14 PM

View PostQueenTiye, on 30 November 2017 - 05:43 PM, said:

But there are reasons to do it and I think that the reasons for both couples were valid - among other things, superheroes don't have all this extra time -

I think it's more that their first attempt was interrupted, so they didn't want to wait and risk something else going wrong. Sort of the same logic Iris used in the bad-luck episode where she dragged Barry to a church for an impromptu insta-wedding, just to get it done before something else went wrong. Turned out that was the wiser course after all.

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and they took all the heroes off the streets for a wedding.

Turns out it was only about seven heroes -- Flash, Green Arrow, Supergirl, Vibe, Kid Flash, White Canary, and Firestorm (counting them as one) -- plus two semi-reformed villains (Heat Wave and Killer Frost), two heroic genius advisers (Felicity and Harry), a DEO agent (Alex), and a bunch of cops (Joe, Singh, etc.).



By the way, I just found out from the Arrowverse Wiki that the voice of the Wellenreiter's (evil Waverider's) AI was Susanna Thompson, i.e. Moira Queen. So I guess Fuhrer Oliver programmed his ship's AI with his own mother's voice.
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