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Trump calls 54+ countries (of 1.2+ billion people) "sh-tholes"


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#1 sierraleone

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 05:12 PM

Apparently our language filter doesn't filter out sh-thole, though I modified it for the title.
FYI - from now on in this discussion I do not plan to remove the i from shithole.

In case there is someone here that does not expose themselves to nearly as much news as I do, here is what happened:

Yesterday/Thursday Trump was having a meeting at the White House to negotiate and discuss immigration, including the issues of TPS & DACA. (TPS = Temporary Protected Status, DACA = Deferred Action on Childhood Arrivals).

Trump grew frustrated over people trying to discuss protect the undocumented immigrants that were previously protected under TPA or DACA until Trump rescinded parts of those policies.

He said, it is fairly widely reported, in reference to Haiti, El Salvador, and African countries: "Why are we having all these people from shithole countries come here?" And then said "Put me down for wanting more Europeans to come to this country. Why don't we get more people from Norway?" (Trump meet the Norway Prime Minister the prior day), and "Why do we want people from Haiti here?" A White House official claims that Trump said he would be willing to allow in more Asian immigrants, as he believes they would help the country economically.

The White House has not clearly disputed the account above. Many Republicans at the meeting equivocated at clearly disputing the account, saying things like they "don't recall" comments like that. Republican Lindsey Graham basically rebukes the President, but only by saying he rebuked the President privately, at the time, but doesn't clearly confirm what was said. Likely because he is trying to work on immigration with the one Democrat present, Dick Durbin, who clearly confirmed his account as matching the account above, that Trump used the word shithole in this way in this context a number of times during the meeting.

Edited by sierraleone, 13 January 2018 - 11:04 AM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#2 sierraleone

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 10:31 AM

Phew. I had more to say on this yesterday but it was enough work (materially and immaterially) just to recount a factual account of what happened.

Now to discuss the substance of what happened, as in what this actually means or suggests or indicates.

Watching the Faux-News network and other right-wing media brush this off or cover for Trump was disgusting.
One WaPo headline seemed to sum up the difference in views. Trump's vulgarity: Overt racism or a president who says what many think?
Um, is there is a dichotomy there representing opposites? It can't be both?

And the right-wing media saying this is how people really talk, like bar-flies. Um, you are comparing a powerless drunk person slurring racist rantings at a bar (who probably everyone is trying to avoid) to the most powerful person on the planet who can affect policy and direct his considerable institutional power and his vast employees towards the ends that he wants? Maybe they are trying to convince liberals that small government is really what liberals should want? This wasn't being said in a bar by a drunk. This was being said by the U.S. President as he tried to discuss and brainstorm and negotiate about immigration policy. Context people!

People might say, this are just words. This words reveal a world-view that is influence, affecting, and changing, policy. They are NOT JUST WORDS. Maybe a democratically elected President and Prime Minister's words, inside a institutional system of checks and balances, aren't as impactful or powerful as say a Monarch's or Autocrat's words, but they are still very powerful. Besides affecting the discourse and culture they also have the very real ability to effect real policy changes, for better or worse, impacting real people's lives. If words don't mean anything I guess the constitution, which is just words, doesn't mean anything either.

Trump basically said he doesn't (and by extension, as the holding the highest position representing America, that America doesn't) want people from shithole countries. He is demeaning and impugning them as worthless, or worth less. What other meaning can one derive from his words? Any other interpretation is obfuscation. Even if you try to say, well, we just want merit-based immigration, and people from this shithole countries are, on average, as a whole, less educated and will contribute less to the economy in both skills and assets if the U.S. lets them in…. You are tying someones net worth and skill set to their level of human dignity or worthiness. Whether one is implying lack of human dignity or worthiness leads to poverty, or poverty degrades a human's dignity or worthiness, both are disgusting points of view. Surely there has to be a way to discuss immigration reform without disrespecting and impugning people from "shithole" countries….

Also, the term "shithole" countries leaves out a lot of nuance, context, and history. Leaving aside that calling a country a "shithole" is a shitholey thing to do, implying there is nothing beautiful about the country, the institutions, the cultures/languages, the people, etc….. Leaving that aside. Lets assume "shithole countries" refers to countries that have lots of corruption (with or without a democracy), are unstable, have extreme poverty, could have famine, are riddled with conflict and violence, and/or destroyed by one/multiple natural disaster(s) they can't adequately address with their resources.

If you want to criticize the "shithole" countries with the above dsyfunctions, criticize the people who perpetuate those dysfunctions, the corrupt politicians, the exploitive businesspersons, or the persons who foment violence. Now the whole dang country. Though, be advised those politicians and businesspersons may find such caustic criticism not to their liking, and be more difficult to work with going forward.

Note, many of these former colonies (which most of these countries are), were exploited by European powers and the U.S.A., even messed or interfered with (look at Haiti's history for a prime example…). European countries could probably all have been described as "shithole" countries at one point or another in-time. The potato-famine in Ireland. But European powers partly grew their economy off of exploiting their colonies for human capital and/or resources. If by "shithole" one also means a land or country that has an subsistence-based economy maybe one would feel comfortable saying, well, all those colonies were shitholes to begin with…. I am not comfortable saying that, I think there is more to a nation and to a people than how close or far they are from a subsistence-based economy. And certainly some pre-colonial non-european economies were more developed than that. In any case I wouldn't call a nation with a subsistence-based economy a shithole country.

Also, some might argue Trump's father was from a "shithole" country (at the time), and his mother (from another country) came into the country on the so-called "chain immigration" having been sponsored by her sister who preceded her. Trump appears to forget his own heritage. Granted, doesn't mean immigration should be the same forever. And they were both from the European countries Trump so desires.

I like that some journalist have fully called out Trump, and not said that it was "racial/racially tinged/racially charged. They are just out saying it, either outright saying Trump is racist, or at least that what he said is racist. Full stop.

Some might say that the media or the liberals are tearing down the honour and respect due the office of the President. Well, I agree, people shouldn't wantonly impugn the President or the office of the President… But the President has to respect the office of the President. I am not saying we should or are following his awful lead. In discourse and everything else. But if we don't call him out on his deplorable behaviour we are consenting for it to continue. The President has given people plenty of reasons to impugn him personally, and the work that he is doing or attempting to do*. And in a democracy it is our right, some would say our duty, to do so, and hold him to account.

(*Or work he is not doing or attempting! "Executive time").



P.S. my apologies if anyone was offended by all the cursing. But boy does the President saying what he said makes me want to swear and every sh*thole I wrote felt like therapy. It may not speak well of me ;)

Funny I think this post is the first time I have nonchalantly referred to Trump as the President. It is not because I believe that he deserves the honours of the title. I guess I just feel that the word doesn't have any meaning (outside of institutional power) if this is what we are seeing and hearing and reading on a daily basis. The title has lost all honour and respect to me I think. Saying "the President" now feels like a saying joke, or an oxymoron as long as he holds the title. That is unfortunate, but I guess it is a reflection of how my feelings have evolved in our current environment. Feel free to imagine that when I refer to "the [U.S.] President" that there is a wry ironic undertone every time, as long as the Trump holds the title.

Edited by sierraleone, 13 January 2018 - 03:10 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#3 Cait

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 04:17 PM

I'll be honest, I find this to be just another example of modern classism.  It's not the way most white people think about African countries, or Haiti.  Tourism in these countries from The Americas and Europe would not be what it is if that were the case. BUT, it is the way the rich think about poor [any color] people.

It's a touchy subject in any democracy because if you talk about classism, you get way to near Marx and Engels, and that is right next to communism. Which is still be big boogeyman, even though most communist countries were really just plain ol authoritarian dictatorships calling themselves communist. And Western countries made sure to make us hate communists because they didn't want any of us inspecting it too closely. We might see the class structure in our own country.

We can talk all we can about racism, but no one goes near the underlying truth. The poor working class is of no use to rich people unless they are slave labor.  They don't make enough money to be consumers and so are worthless to the rich. Of course there is also some racism in there, but deeper, much deeper, is the class struggle apparent throughout our earthly history.

They hate that we have the vote.  They hate that we can get an education. They hate that we have free speech. Hell, they hate that they can't kill us to shut us up. They want a compliant slave class, that keep their mouths shut, or at least only parrot what they want us to say. Nowadays it's called "talking points". If they had their way, we'd be illiterate, and just be happy to breed the next generation of working slaves/consumers.

There are more poor than there are rich. They are petrified of a revolution, and rightfully so [France, Russia]. The need the poor and working class for slave labor.  What to do, what to do???  Divide the lower class into squabbling factions. Enter racism.  Make the white poor think they are better than the black and brown poor.  Make them hate them in fact.  Why?  So they never unite. United they would be an army, and the rich ruling class can't afford that now can they.

Were #45's comments racist?  Of course they were.  But, they were made by a man who is part of the upper class, about the lower class. It was bait to his base, because they are the poor fools who think that being white makes them immune from being "lower class work slaves". This isn't new.  It's been this way since the beginning of time I imagine.

So, yeah, racism is a problem, what he said was detestable, but it is easily understood because he is part of the upper class, and all the rest of us are good for is to serve the upper class. Those brown people over in Africa or Haiti would track in dirt, they don't speak our language, they are dirty, stupid, and uneducated.  Just look at the way they live. This is all deeper than racism, it's classism. It's the upper class and their hatred of anyone not in their class. [and their fear of being destroyed by the angry masses]

I hate to break it to anyone, but Marx was pretty damn smart, even if his philosophy was corrupted in the modern communist nations. He saw classism for what it was. Slave labor for the rich. It's why unions are busted. No one wants the unification of the working and poorer classes.  No one. It's exactly why the Democrats have lost their base in many ways. They are no longer pro-worker.

But whatever, all too many think this is just a question of hating blacks or other brown skinned people.  NO.  They hate poor people of any color, unless they are serving their needs and keeping ther mouths shut.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#4 sierraleone

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 06:32 PM

^ I think it is both, racism and classism, though I overall agree with you. There was a comedian, of the political satire variety, who said if you scratch at any issue or problem in America, underneath is racism, classism, or sexism. In any case it is all prejudice, and judging people on something other than their character.

I think that TPTB in the U.S. have done a good job of making people blame the poor for their situation, and blame poverty on character (or presumed lack-there-of). Another comedian I recall saying once that no Americans are poor, some of them are just temporarily embarrassed rich millionaires. And I feel like there is a real sense that rich people have all gotten to where they are in life purely on merit and good character.

We can't have rich without poor. The rich skim off all they can get away with off the poor to make themselves rich. Not all intend or plan it, it is just the way the system is set up, but certainly if not them directly then whoever handles their money is getting it from some less-than-scruplous people.

And this is why the rich need the poor, and not the other way around. If the poor are going to live hand-to-mouth than how much worse is a subsistence-based life style than that? The rich need people to skim resources and labour off of.

And they don't have to use melanin to be divide the poor and working class. Every wave of immigration to the U.S. has been met with grumbling and resistance and used as a scapegoat, whether Irish, German, Italian, Jewish etc. Heck, one thing I read recently said that the price of the Atlantic passage was so great that half of the white immigrants at one point were indenture servants (some voluntary, some not, the latter being either people who were convicts or kidnapped and brought over in servitude.).

View PostCait, on 13 January 2018 - 04:17 PM, said:

I hate to break it to anyone, but Marx was pretty damn smart, even if his philosophy was corrupted in the modern communist nations. He saw classism for what it was. Slave labor for the rich. It's why unions are busted. No one wants the unification of the working and poorer classes.  No one. It's exactly why the Democrats have lost their base in many ways. They are no longer pro-worker.

Yeah. Capitalism works well for the rich, who hold most of the cards. When I heard right-wingers decry regulation it blows my mind.
Regulations = standards as I look at it.

Do we want to say, well, if someone can't afford to put a roof over their head *and* eat on 40 hour work weeks it is up to them if they want to work more hours? Um, that is not a real choice, to either starve or be homeless, or work more than 1/3 of your waking hours.
Is it up to someone working on poverty-level wages whether they take unpaid vacation or sick time or not? Again, not a real choice.
Which is why we have things like minimum wage and over-time pay. And why most civilized countries have a minimum mandatory paid vacation days for workers.

Regulations, whether environment or labour, are *standards* so that the upper-class doesn't exploit the people of the lower class, or the environment, *too* badly.

And standards or basic protections are why we need socialist policies. I am not saying to the degree of communism. Socialism is needed for adequate environment and labour protections, as well as a safety net for those that capitalism can't or won't help obtain or maintain a basic standard of living (the young, the old, the disabled, the impoverished).

Edited by sierraleone, 13 January 2018 - 06:33 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#5 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 08:06 AM

LOL.  Why am I not surprised people here are jumping on this being racist. For those who find these alleged comments offensive,  let me ask you: if you had to choose which country to live in, Norway, Africa, Haiti, El Salvador,  which one would you choose?
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

The last republican leaning independent on this message board. All others have been silenced and driven off, or outright banned. Only ONE remains. I guess HighLander had it right all along....In the end, there can be only ONE.

#6 Omega

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 08:48 AM



#7 Niko

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 09:31 AM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 17 January 2018 - 08:06 AM, said:

LOL.  Why am I not surprised people here are jumping on this being racist. For those who find these alleged comments offensive,  let me ask you: if you had to choose which country to live in, Norway, Africa, Haiti, El Salvador,  which one would you choose?
If you had to choose to live next door to a person from Norway, Africa, Haiti, or El Salvador, which would you choose?   Why?

If you had to choose a person who was more "deserving" of being let in, which would you choose?   Why?

The comment is offensive because it presumes that our FELLOW HUMAN BEINGS who live in less developed countries are of inherently less worth than people who happened to be born in a country that looks/feels similar to the U.S. (As well as blowing yet another dog whistle to racists and other nazis in this country that people already *here* from those countries are also lesser human beings who don't "deserve" to be here, regardless of their legal status.)
- Whatsoever you do to the least of my people, that you do unto me.    (Matthew 25:40)

- Do not let kindness and truth leave you; Bind them around your neck, Write them on the tablet of your heart.  (Proverbs 3:3)

#8 sierraleone

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 09:43 AM

^ A thousand times this.
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#9 Omega

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 04:07 PM

Also, the *a$$h*le wasn't just randomly calling countries shitholes. This was in a discussion about policy, and his position (which this is merely an expression of) torpedoed a bipartisan deal from Congress to keep the government operating.

In short, Trump decided to shut down the government because he didn't get to keep poor black people from entering the country. That's what's offensive. Arguing about the language used or the accuracy of the comments is just purposefully being an apologist for outright racism.

#10 gsmonks

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 04:10 PM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 17 January 2018 - 08:06 AM, said:

LOL.  Why am I not surprised people here are jumping on this being racist. For those who find these alleged comments offensive,  let me ask you: if you had to choose which country to live in, Norway, Africa, Haiti, El Salvador,  which one would you choose?

Africa is a continent, not a country. Been there, met my ex-wife in S.A. (South Africa), my neighbours and extended family, and my G.P., are South African. Gorgeous country. I'd live there in a heartbeat. You can make pets of some of my favourite animals there- caracals, genets, cheetahs, servals. I've been to and through El Salvador, too, as has one of my brothers-in-law.

Your comments are both ignorant and racist.
Capitalism is a pyramid scheme run by the 1%.

#11 Cait

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 04:21 PM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 17 January 2018 - 08:06 AM, said:

LOL.  Why am I not surprised people here are jumping on this being racist. For those who find these alleged comments offensive,  let me ask you: if you had to choose which country to live in, Norway, Africa, Haiti, El Salvador,  which one would you choose?

You have no idea how offensive this really is, do you? Which makes you the problem, not #45.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#12 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 05:01 PM

View Postgsmonks, on 17 January 2018 - 04:10 PM, said:


Your comments are both ignorant and racist.

And there's the Democrat's slogan. Hell today Democrats and Liberals find EVERYTHING racist, but when they themselves ARE the racists, that's not surprising. It's not surprising that they would "project" their own racism onto others, just like you did with the above comment.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

The last republican leaning independent on this message board. All others have been silenced and driven off, or outright banned. Only ONE remains. I guess HighLander had it right all along....In the end, there can be only ONE.

#13 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 05:03 PM

View PostCait, on 17 January 2018 - 04:21 PM, said:



You have no idea how offensive this really is, do you? Which makes you the problem, not #45.

I'm a realist. I don't do touchy feely to make people feel better. I tell it like it is, and I damn sure don't do Politically Correct BS.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

The last republican leaning independent on this message board. All others have been silenced and driven off, or outright banned. Only ONE remains. I guess HighLander had it right all along....In the end, there can be only ONE.

#14 Cait

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 05:27 PM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 17 January 2018 - 05:03 PM, said:

View PostCait, on 17 January 2018 - 04:21 PM, said:

You have no idea how offensive this really is, do you? Which makes you the problem, not #45.

I'm a realist. I don't do touchy feely to make people feel better. I tell it like it is, and I damn sure don't do Politically Correct BS.

You make the mistake, like most of your ilk, that preaching your hate under the umbrella of reality is somehow right, and politically brave. You're just the latest example of exactly how damaging #45 is to our country. You hide your racism behind the FoxNews meme that if we call you out on your hatred, we're somehow overreaching, and part of some liberal snowflake contingent.

Like I said, you simply do not see how your bias and racism shows in these comments. It's sad really, because even though your comments are absolutely true from your POV, your POV is racist.  Trust me. Your hate is in almost every post on this forum.  We put up with it, because well, we put up wiht it.  But, don't think you're some kind of rational and intelligent Conservative defending the conservative movement by spouting your hate here.  Because you're not. You're not even conservative. You are however, the best example of Trumpism I've seen up close and personal.

Carry on dear LotS, at least we now see who you really are. Thank you for giving us the "reality" of your POV.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.

Source:
http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html


#15 gsmonks

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 02:14 PM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 17 January 2018 - 05:01 PM, said:

View Postgsmonks, on 17 January 2018 - 04:10 PM, said:

Your comments are both ignorant and racist.

And there's the Democrat's slogan. Hell today Democrats and Liberals find EVERYTHING racist, but when they themselves ARE the racists, that's not surprising. It's not surprising that they would "project" their own racism onto others, just like you did with the above comment.

And there, yet again, is a GOP troll-meme.

I'm a conservative, not a liberal. But anyone you disagree with is a "liberal" in your mind. Which is high-larious, because all US politicians are Liberals, by definition:

https://www.collinsd...beral-democracy
Capitalism is a pyramid scheme run by the 1%.

#16 gsmonks

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 02:17 PM

The problem with GLOP heads is that they're: uninformed, stupid, ignorant, and worst of all, they're usually godders.

Why are godders a problem?

They're the source of alternative facts. There is no god, there was no jesus, or holey Moses, or any of that fairy-tale stuff. All of that stuff comes under the heading of alternative facts.

Once you leave the barn door open . . .
Capitalism is a pyramid scheme run by the 1%.


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