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Government Shutdown, just as Trump's 2nd year starts.


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#1 sierraleone

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 08:48 AM

What is the genesis of this shutdown, as far as I can tell? Well, 6 factors as far as I can tell.

1) Continuing Resolutions / CRs -
It has been a *long* time since the Legislative Branch passed a proper budget resolution, or appropriations bill. I *think* the last time one had been passed was May 2015, which was the first one after a long spell without them too. So, disagreements over spending amounts in general and spending priorities specifically, being held closely enough, have led to the government allocate money short term in what are called Continuing Resolutions. There have been several CRs in the last year, funding the government for months, weeks, or days at a time. While the debt ceiling is a separate thing, it is certainly tied up into disagreements over spending amounts, as some politicians are near completely opposed to raising both government funding and the debt ceiling. This inability to pass a proper budget also cost the government trillions of dollars a year, as government departments can not do any mid or long-term planning. Many Republicans and Democrats are grumbling about the federal government not having a properly designed and funded budget, and are sick of CRs.

2) Children's Health Insurance Program / CHIP -
This is a government program created in 1997 in response to the failure to pass comprehensive health care reform in 1993. This government health insurance program covers about 9 million low-income kids in the U.S. It has historically had wide bipartisan support. All sides continue to say they support it. However CHIP expired September 30, 2017. The same month the Senate introduced a bipartisan "clean" CHIP bill called KIDS act ("clean" meaning other legislative items or priorities were not attach to it that may hinder its passing) that would fund CHIP for another 5 years. The house did more than introduce a bill, the passed a bill called CHAMPION act, which would also cut billions for the Prevention and Public Health Fund, a fund for chronic disease prevention. Since then states have been trying to cover the short-fall for CHIP, though that can't be continued indefinitely.

So, not funding this will upend the lives of vulnerable ill children from low-income children, and maybe more the upend them for the sickest amount them.

3) Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals / DACA -
Immigration reform in general has been kicked down the road a long time. The DREAM act (very similar to DACA) was first introduced in the Senate on Aug 1, 2001 by Orrin Hatch (R.) & Dick Durbin (D.). (Similar legislation was introduced in the House on Apr 25, 2001). President Bush even did a 180 on immigration reform days before 9/11. 9/11 changed the focus to national security, and the DREAMERs had been waiting for a legislative fix, which came forward a number of times but never passed, ever since. Frustrated with the 11 years of congressional inaction on immigration President Obama signed an Executive Order called DACA on Jun 15, 2012. It allowed those who were younger than 31 that day, that were brought to the U.S. when they were younger than 16, and must have lived continuously in the U.S. since 2007, and not be criminals. It has been challenged in court a couple of times. It currently covers about 800,000 mostly youth. Both sides (excluding extremists) continue to say they support DACA, the Democrats would prefer a clean DACA bill, whereas the Republicans would prefer to tie it to other immigration reform. Then President Trump, Sep 5, 2017, had his Attorney General Jeff Sessions announce that DACA was being rescinded via executive order, effective Mar 5, 2018. After that date, if there is not a congressional legislative fix, former DACA recipients could be subject to deportation.

So, not fixing or extending this will upend the lives of people who have openly built lives here, all law-abiding, many buying homes or starting businesses, near all going to school or working, some having started their own families with American-born children. They could be forced to leave all of that.


So how did we go from both sides (except extreme ideologues) wanting CHIP and DACA to a shut down over these things? Well, besides Republicans wanting to use them as hostages human bargaining chips to bring Democrats "to heel" over Republican other legislative priorities.

The Republicans are in control of the House, the Senate, and the Executive Branch. (Some might argue SCOTUS and/or the judiciary too). But they want to blame democrats for the fact that they can't whip their party into line? And if the majority needs some minority votes (as is sometimes the case in the Senate), um, it is called governing and compromising. And then there is:


4) Trump -
Democrats, having heard some of Trump's(?) and Republicans' purported priorities in immigration reform (levelling/decreasing immigration, getting rid of the immigration lottery and chain migration in favour of merit-based immigration, Trump rescinding Temporary Protected Status or TPS for 3 countries including Haiti, a border wall/more border security, more immigration staff from law enforcement to judicial, purportedly keeping DACA)… Some of this was hashed out on Tue Jan 9th in in a televised public meeting at the White House between Democrats, Republicans, and Trump. People said their piece, Trump said that he was relying on them, and would sign what both sides came up with. So Trump seemed amendable.

Having heard that, Senators Dick Durbin (D.) and Lindsay Graham (R.) negotiated and came up with a compromise proposal, with both sides giving and taking, and the offered to present it to the President Thu Jan 11. Those that are immigration ideologues in the White House drummed up immigration hardliners from Congress to come to the meeting last minute, and Durbin and Graham were ambushed. This is the meeting where Trump said sh!thole countries, which I won't repeat the whole story, go to this thread for that. As said in that thread, it wasn't what he said, it is the intention behind the words, and what it indicates is shaping U.S. policy.

I've read that since then the bipartisan group wanting DACA have been soliciting a counter proposal from the White House to that Durbin and Graham had proposed that day. Because they have given their proposal, it is not up to them to keep shooting in the dark on what Trump or the White House want. Proposal, counter-proposal, (counter-counter-proposal, etc, if needed). Makes sense, right? Then each side knows where they stand, and where there is room for compromise. However, the White House has not answered this requests for a counter proposal. And the Republicans seem to be unwilling to negotiate on immigration reform without the incompetent directionless White House. Though if both sides want DACA, it should seem they could get a veto-proof majority in a well-enough designed compromise, right? *sigh* What a shitshow.


5) Military and non-military spending -
Minor contributing factor, but thought it worth mentioning. The Republicans seem to be willing to spend massively more amounts on the military (despite exclaiming about government spending frequently), but want to often cut non-military spending. The Democrats want the military spending increased to be matched to non-military spending increases. Whether to try to control spending in general, to control military spending, and/or to ensure that domestic programs that citizens depend on don't get cut to the bone to beef up the military.

6) Donor-bought politicians letting donors drive policy priorities.
- So, it has been 3.5-4.5 moths since CHIP had expired/DACA was rescinded. Purportedly both sides (except ideologues) want CHIP extended and funded, and DACA made into law. So what have the party in power, the Republicans been doing for the last 3.5-4.5 months? Working on an unnecessary, tax bill with tax cuts designed to make their donors richer. That is what their focus and priority has been, not the 9.8 million lives that will be upended if they don't address CHIP and DACA. CHIP and DACA have not been addressed by any urgency by the Republicans, compared to the urgency over their tax-cuts-for-their-donors bill. At least not until they were done the tax cuts and could fully focus on using CHIP and DACA as human leverage to try to shame the democrats into a modern Sophie's Choice situation.

Edited by sierraleone, 20 January 2018 - 08:49 AM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#2 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 09:26 AM

DACA is not a funding issue, and should be no part of this discussion; no matter how much Schumer and the Dems want it to be. the deadline for DACA isn't until March, almost 2 months away, there is no reason for it to be a priority now. The only reason it is being used now is because the Democrats are hoping to get DACA done, so they don't have to compromise with the President and secure the Southern border with a wall, end chain migration and the visa lottery.  Hell in 2013, the last shutdown, Pelosi called GOP arsonists, and Schumer called them Chaos hostage takers, taking people's family hostage to negotiate the sale of a house, for attaching non funding issues to a CR. Now here we are, only this time it's Pelosi who is the arsonist, and Schumer who is the family hostage taker. Senator Feinstein said that Government shut down kills people, and yet she voted to shutdown the Government. So, basically, she voted to kill people.

I asked before, and I'll ask again, what EXACTLY was in the CR that the Democrats oppose? Do the Democrats now oppose CHIP? There are what? 9 million who need CHIP, and like 800 or 900 thousand DACA? The numbers seem pretty clear on what should be a priority. So, what EXACTLY was in the funding bill Schumer and the Dems don't like? Why the need for the Schumer Shutdown?
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#3 sierraleone

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 10:03 AM

^ Did you actually read my post? The Democrats did compromise on immigration (see point 4, Trump). With the Democrats realizing that the Republican ideologues not actually be willing to compromise, wheres the idea that Republican ideologues would be willing to compromise Mar 5? After punting immigration reform for over 16 years at that point… (though I am sure that Democrats had a part in that punting too, consider they held congress for parts of that 16 years… Though I don't know how long they held both the House and Senate).

And the Republicans didn't even all vote yes on the CR, nor Democrats no, even if that was generally the case. (The vote was 50-49, due to McCain's absence). An equal number (5) of each party voted against party lines, and most on the Republican side are party leaders, not consider outliers like the Democrat Yeses.

Party exceptions:
Yes Democrats:
AL Senator Doug Jones: Yes
IN Senator Joe Donnelly: Yes
MO Senator Claire McCaskill: Yes
ND Senator Heidi Heitkamp: Yes
WV Senator Joe Manchin: Yes
No Republicans:
AZ Senator Jeff Flake: No
KT Senator Mitch McConnell (Senate Majority Leader): No
KT Senator Rand Paul: No
SC Senator Lindsey Graham: No
UT Senator Mike Lee: No
Independents:
ME Senator Angus King: No
VT Senator Bernie Sanders: No


This is the first time a government shutdown has happened when one party controls the House, the Senate, and the Executive Branch.

Edited by sierraleone, 20 January 2018 - 11:19 AM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#4 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 10:10 AM

I read your post, and from what I understand about the Graham Durbin bipartisan deal, it fell way short on what Trump wanted. It didn't fund the wall, or end visa lottery and chain migration.

Now where Trump screwed up was in that televised cabinet meeting,  when he said: "if you bring me a bipartisan deal, even if I don't like it, I'll sign it". That was a mistake.

But if Schumer thinks he's going to force Trump's hand by a Government bankruptcy,  good luck with that. Trump has used bankruptcy to his favor before, he's not afraid of another one.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#5 sierraleone

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 10:17 AM

Vox: The DACA deal that Congress is still working on in spite of Trump, explained

This article is from 4 days ago. It goes as much into detail as it can regarding the proposal that Durbin and Graham and their colleagues came up with after Trump and other politicians gave their point of view and priorities on immigration in the public Tue Jan 9, that they brought to Trump and immigration ideologues on Thu Jan 11.

ETA: I started this post before your newer one. I had contemplated quoting parts of the article, or explaining it more in detail, but just decided to leave the link for the curious.

Edited by sierraleone, 20 January 2018 - 10:34 AM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#6 sierraleone

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 10:34 AM

A compromise is suppose to fall short on what you want. I don't know what your definition of "way short" is, but maybe you'll elucidate that, maybe not. Regarding what you specifically brought up, apparently thinking that they were not address at all:

- Fund The Wall ! - um, according to Vox, it gives $1.6 billion for physical barriers (the wall that U.S. taxpayers weren't even suppose to pay for), and another $1.2 billion for other border security priorities. More wall/fence is something many Democrats don't want at all.
- End Visa Lottery ! -  It eliminates the Visa Lottery, in exchange for giving access to legal status or green cards to DACA recipients and to some immigrants loosing their TPS status.
- End Chain Migration ! - Also know as family reunification. I am not sure why people are against it, especially if they tout "family values". It doesn't completely end chain migration, but it does forbid chain migration for parents of DACA recipients by DACA recipients, meaning even if DACA recipients get full legal status they still can't sponsor their parents to become full legal citizens. (I think there is still the possibility of an American-born relative sponsoring them I think, but if they have no extended American-born family that means they are waiting for their future 'anchor' grand-babies to turn 21).

That looks like compromise to me, I wonder what Trumps counter-proposal would be. Heck, DACA recipients probably *hate* this, as it means their parents will always be in the shadows and at risk of deportation.

Edited by sierraleone, 20 January 2018 - 10:44 AM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#7 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 12:56 PM

Won't be able to read that link until later tonight, so will comment after I do read it. Just wanted to say, as for DACA children not being able to bring their parents in.... I agree with that. Their parents are the very ones who broke the law by entering country with them illegally.  Why reward the parents for that crime? That's like letting a bank robber keep the money they stole from the bank.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#8 sierraleone

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 01:05 PM

^ Their parents, if they brought their kid here themselves anyways, is already "in" / here. It doesn't necessarily from what else you expressed, just clarifying that for DACA recipients with parents in the country it is not don't "bring in" but don't give legal status.
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#9 sierraleone

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 06:11 PM

WaPo: Shutdown agreement! Trump is to blame.

Quote

On Friday, Minority Leader Sen. Charles E. Schumer (D-N.Y.) was asked to come to the White House and spent 90 minutes with the president. He and Trump seemed to come to agreement on a general outline: ...

Then Friday afternoon, Chief of Staff John F. Kelly “calls Schumer and complains that the outline that Schumer and Trump had discussed was too liberal. Full funding of the President’s border security request would not be enough, on its own, to strike a deal giving legal status to the dreamers.” Is this what Trump wants or what Kelly does? It’s impossible to know or even to understand what it means for Trump to want something (for the moment? Unless convinced otherwise?).

On the floor of the Senate on Saturday, Schumer sounded exasperated. He first reviewed the sequence of events. “The bottom line is simple: President Trump just can’t take yes for an answer. He’s rejected not one but two viable bipartisan deals, including one in which I put his most prominent campaign pledge on the table,” he said. “What’s even more frustrating than President Trump’s intransigence is the way he seems amenable to these compromises before completely switching positions and backing off. Negotiating with President Trump is like negotiating with Jell-O.”

Sen. Lindsey O. Graham (R-S.C.) seems to agree, suggesting at one point that senior policy adviser Stephen Miller was yanking the president around last week. “The Stephen Miller approach to immigration has no viability. Tuesday, the president was in a good place. He was the president of all of us,” Graham told MSNBC on Friday. “He spoke compassionately about immigration, tough on security, wanted bipartisanship. Two days later, there was a major change.”

Edited by sierraleone, 20 January 2018 - 06:12 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#10 sierraleone

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 08:01 PM

Wow. The Republicans really think not negotiating is taking the high road I guess. Though they are used to working with spineless Democrats.

WaPo: Trump, GOP leaders, refusing Democratic demands as shutdown continues.

Quote

BREAKING: McConnell schedules early Monday vote to reopen government

Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) announced plans for a vote at 1 a.m. Monday on a bill to fund the government through Feb. 8. The move appeared designed to force Democrats to either agree to reopen the government without concessions on immigration and other issues, or to vote again for a government shutdown, which Republicans believe will hurt Democrats. The government shut down early Saturday morning after a four-week spending bill failed to gain enough votes to advance in the Senate.
This story will be updated.

President Trump and Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) remained in regular contact Saturday afternoon about a possible solution to the government shutdown that began at midnight, …
...
Sensing that they have the upper hand, top House Republicans said they had ruled out negotiating on a major Democratic priority — immigration policy — until the shutdown ends.

Note, per my post on which politicians voted against their party lines… McConnell, the Senate Majority Leader was one of those…

Now, I wouldn't be surprised if the Democrats caved, they are pretty spineless. (The Republicans are spineless to Trump, or their donors, but not to the Democrats).

Edited by sierraleone, 20 January 2018 - 08:03 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#11 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 08:34 AM

View Postsierraleone, on 20 January 2018 - 10:17 AM, said:


ETA: I started this post before your newer one. I had contemplated quoting parts of the article, or explaining it more in detail, but just decided to leave the link for the curious.

Alright, I finally read the article in the link. I found it interesting that there is no release of text of the bill. Very interesting indeed, especially considering that FACT that Durbin "ratted" or "leaked" the contents of a private meeting with the President to the press. I mean, seriously, how is the President EVER suppose to trust, or deal, with someone like Durbin ever again?

While the article was interesting, the writer of the article made on crucial mistake: DACA, and illegal immigration reform, the wall and border security have NOTHING what so ever to do with the CR. The deadline on DACA isn't until March, over a month away. And to date, nobody has been able to point out to me what EXACTLY is in the CR that Democrats oppose? Do Democrats oppose CHIP? Do they oppose clean CR's? I thought they were all about clean CR's? But not, for some reason, they want to attach immigration onto a CR. The very thing they criticized the GOP for doing in 2013.

I do have to hand it to Pelosi though. Her taking house Democrats out for a fancy dinner, while the military goes without pay...the optics of THAT are one of the reasons the American people will blame Democrats and Schumer for the shutdown. If Schumer is expecting Trump to cave and bow to Schumer's every whim, he is in for a rude awakening. Especially with the optics help that Pelosi is providing.

Again, someone please tell me what EXACTLY is in the CR that Democrats oppose? DACA and illegal immigration have nothing to do with a clean CR, so what EXACTLY is in the CR that Democrats oppose?
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#12 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 09:08 AM

I'm wondering how long it's going to be before the Mitch McConnell uses the Nuclear option? If that happens,  the Democrats might have a harder time, than they thought,  in mid terms.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#13 sierraleone

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 09:12 AM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 21 January 2018 - 08:34 AM, said:

Alright, I finally read the article in the link. I found it interesting that there is no release of text of the bill. Very interesting indeed, especially considering that FACT that Durbin "ratted" or "leaked" the contents of a private meeting with the President to the press. I mean, seriously, how is the President EVER suppose to trust, or deal, with someone like Durbin ever again?

Got your facts wrong again. Durbin and Graham and/or their aides present spoke about meeting with non-press people, who then spoke with press people, who then started asking people present what happened, was that now 2nd/3rd hand information true? Maybe he did this wanting or knowing it would come out, but we don't know.

I think it is fairly obvious those that the democrats feel that the other side, whether Republicans, at least the ideologues - which appear to have outsized influence at the White House, or Trump and this White House, are dealing and negotiating in bad faith. Keep dealing in good faith with the same people who are dealing in bad faith may make you the better person, but it also you a fool. Unfortunately the Democrats *have* to deal with this opposition that is not dealing in good faith.

Quote

While the article was interesting, the writer of the article made on crucial mistake: DACA, and illegal immigration reform, the wall and border security have NOTHING what so ever to do with the CR. The deadline on DACA isn't until March, over a month away. And to date, nobody has been able to point out to me what EXACTLY is in the CR that Democrats oppose? Do Democrats oppose CHIP? Do they oppose clean CR's? I thought they were all about clean CR's? But not, for some reason, they want to attach immigration onto a CR. The very thing they criticized the GOP for doing in 2013.

You know 5 Republicans, including the Senate Majority Leader, voted No on this CR? Were their reasons valid enough for you?

Say they passed a clean CR that would last until March. And the GOP pulled this stunt again, not negotiating in good faith on DACA and immigration (isn't that what they were supposed to focused on after passing their tax bill? Isn't focusing on the tax bill the reason they could not  focus on immigration?) with nothing solid to show for it in March. Would it be worth it to hold up a clean CR then? At what point do the Democrats get to say you are acting in bad faith, stop it? Especially on something with as much broad voter support.

Quote

I do have to hand it to Pelosi though. Her taking house Democrats out for a fancy dinner, while the military goes without pay...the optics of THAT are one of the reasons the American people will blame Democrats and Schumer for the shutdown. If Schumer is expecting Trump to cave and bow to Schumer's every whim, he is in for a rude awakening. Especially with the optics help that Pelosi is providing.

Again, someone please tell me what EXACTLY is in the CR that Democrats oppose? DACA and illegal immigration have nothing to do with a clean CR, so what EXACTLY is in the CR that Democrats oppose?

A Democrat, one from Missouri I think, tried to introduce a bill to keep the military funded during this shut down. The Republicans didn't let it come to the floor. As I said, the Republicans are acting in bad faith, seemingly at every turn. Are they afraid if it came to the floor it would pass and would take the teeth out of some of their criticisms of the Democrats, such as they don't support the military?
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#14 sierraleone

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 09:18 AM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 21 January 2018 - 09:08 AM, said:

I'm wondering how long it's going to be before the Mitch McConnell uses the Nuclear option? If that happens,  the Democrats might have a harder time, than they thought,  in mid terms.

I don't think he will. As painful as it is now, if he gets rid of the 60/100 votes rules for budgetary stuff, if his party ends up in the Democrats position after November, with 41-49 votes, they want to have influence over the shape of the budget and not be entirely powerless. I won't even guess if the Democrats will get a majority, the map is very bad for them, but they definitely will not get 60 seats.
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#15 Elara

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 04:32 PM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 20 January 2018 - 09:26 AM, said:

DACA is not a funding issue, and should be no part of this discussion; no matter how much Schumer and the Dems want it to be. the deadline for DACA isn't until March, almost 2 months away, there is no reason for it to be a priority now.

Really? Two whole months? No reason to be a priority? Let me ask you, LotS. Say you were living in fear of being deported from the only country you really know, the country you have lived in possibly your entire life. Now, tell me how wonderful it would be for you to go another two months waiting, not knowing what your future holds, limbo. And remember, if it goes bad, in two months you will be deported, even though you are a tax payer, not a criminal, have a happy life, close friends, etc... You get sent back to a country you don't even know, where you have to figure out how to live, maybe how to keep from getting killed, because every d@mn thing you know, is the country that has now kicked you out.
Then you have to apply to re-enter your country (because it is your country after all that time), and wait, and wait, and wait...

Yes, it's almost two months.

View Postsierraleone, on 21 January 2018 - 09:12 AM, said:

A Democrat, one from Missouri I think, tried to introduce a bill to keep the military funded during this shut down. The Republicans didn't let it come to the floor. As I said, the Republicans are acting in bad faith, seemingly at every turn. Are they afraid if it came to the floor it would pass and would take the teeth out of some of their criticisms of the Democrats, such as they don't support the military?

There were five Democratic senators introduced a bill Friday that would keep members of Congress from getting paid during a government shutdown. One was from Missouri, so perhaps that is what you read, sierraleone.

http://thehill.com/h...during-shutdown

Quote

Stabenow echoed Heitkamp’s remarks in the statement and vowed to donate her salary in the event of a shutdown even if the bill doesn’t pass.
“It’s wrong that members of Congress would still get paid in the event of a shutdown while paychecks for members of our military could be disrupted,” Stabenow said. “This bill ensures members of Congress will not get paid and another bill I have cosponsored makes sure our troops will."

The bill was introduced by U.S. Sens. Claire McCaskill of Missouri, Heidi Heitkamp of North Dakota, Jon Tester of Montana, Debbie Stabenow of Michigan, and Joe Manchin of West Virginia.

Even if passed, the bill wouldn't go into effect until 2019, but I sure hope they don't drop this, because it is only fair.

Now, will they donate their salary? Who knows, but I'll guarantee that the Republicans won't agree to this bill, and would never donate or return their salary. I know the exact excuse they would give, because Iowans have heard it before (from a Republican).

~.~.~.

It is interesting to me, that the Democrats were "guilty" with the last shut-down (2013), and they are "guilty" for this shut-down. My biggest question is, it's basically a Republican controlled government, but the Democrats are able to stop them from doing whatever they want?
El
~ blue crystal glows, the dark side unseen, sparkles in scant light, from sun to planet, to me in between ~


I want a job in HRC's "shadow" cabinet. Good pay, really easy hours, lots of time off. Can't go wrong.

"You have a fair and valid point here. I've pointed out, numerous times, that the Left's or Democrats always cry "Racist" whenever someone disagrees with them. I failed to realize that the Right or Republicans do the same thing with "Liberal"." ~ LotS

#16 sierraleone

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 05:45 PM

The way I see it both sides are saying come to *our* table first. You have a table one side saying DREAMERS over it, with a countdown clock, and you have a table on the other side saying CR on the other side, with a countup clock.

To extend the analogy, Trump and Republicans have been the ones controlling the tables/priorities all year. Trump put up a table with "Muslim Travel Ban" early on that blocked and turned back innocent travellers (immigrants, refugees, students, tourists, patients), based on country of origin. People exclaimed "you can't do that", Executive Branch says "really says who?", then people exclaimed, "we're taking you to court", Executive Branch "fine!". And that, or something similar, has happened with a number Executive Branch's Executive Orders and policies.

Trump also put out two tables early on that haven't not resulted in, er, results yet. One had "ACA Obamacare Repeal!" over it. Many Republicans rallied to that table, at least four times, but couldn't get enough Republicans to lift it carry it forward to a finish line. So they gave up on it. Another one of Trump's tables had "The Big Beautiful Wall Mexico will pay for".

Some Republican ideologues were for The Wall, but it was on the back burner as all Republicans really wanted to come to the table behind the curtain (that anyone who was paying attention knew was there) and work on that one. Some Republicans heard a silky siren call from there saying that they had a one-in-a-lifetime chance to fulfill a life long dream, others heard a klaxon alarm saying if they ignored this table before them was a future party destroyed by failure to govern and, importunely, a lack of donor funding/backing. But they were really focusing on the "ACA Obamacare Repeal!" one first, because it would affect what they could get done on the other.

Then September 6th Trump abracadabra-ed up a new table that only Republican ideologues wanted. Above it "DACA Rescinded!" and it had a count down clock of 6 months.

Soon after, late September, the Republicans had their last failed rally to the "ACA Obamacare Repeal!". Around the same time a table everyone had been ignoring had its countdown reach "0:00". It was CHIP that needed to be reauthorize. So, despite the imminent threat that CHIP ending represented, and the about 5 months left on the "DACA Rescinded!" table issue, the Republican shifted their focus to their priority: the table behind the curtain. Above it was "Tax Reform" (later changed to "Tax Reform Make Our Donors Richer Tax Cuts"), and there was no urgency at all, like none, whatsoever. Unlike with CHIP or DACA. Just corruption and bought politicians prioritizing segments of the population that needed the least help, and their own self-aggrandizement. And the Republicans wouldn't let the Democrats behind the curtain at all. Though new to the Senate, it was not new to 2017, as they did the same with "ACA Obamacare Repeal".

Since the Republicans can't get compromise among themselves and make a budget there was always a table labelled "CRs - Keep the Government Open past X date… please?" With the date being periodically reset.

The Democrats went to the "DACA Rescinded!" table immediately and were discussing it with Trump the week he abracadabra-ed. Dialogue seemed fine, but there was some take-backies and rockiness after. The Democrats went to the "CHIP" table too as its count down neared. They implored the Republicans to come to their table due to the urgency, and really focus on this. Republicans said "nahhh, do you hear those siren / klaxon calls? It is much more urgent than kids getting health care, or undocumented minor immigrations getting to stay in the only country that they have known. Really. You'll have to trust us. We'll get around to that later. Besides, its CR time again. We need to pass a new CR and I pinky swear we'll deal with your pet tables before the next CR, kapish?"

CRs were passed for dates up to the end of Sep 2017, Dec 9, Dec 22, Jan 20 2018.

Democrats I am sure brought up CHIP and DACA throughout that time, issues much more urgent than the "Tax Reform Make Our Donors Richer Tax Cuts". I know they had a lot of pressure from DACA supporters to vote against the CRs in Dec to bring DACA to the forefront of issues, since half of the six months they had had elapsed. Considering how the Republicans both kept the Democrats away from the table Republicans support, and wouldn't go near the tables Democrats support, and both Trump and many Republicans are dealing in such bad faith, is it any surprise the Democrats don't trust the Republicans?

The only time I've seen the Republicans try to pin bad-faith tactics on the Democrats is when the Democrats are pointing out the Republican bad-faith tactics. I don't know how keeping the other side honest is a bad-faith tactic, in fact that seems like a good-faith one.

Edited by sierraleone, 21 January 2018 - 06:27 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#17 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 22 January 2018 - 04:44 PM

View PostElara, on 21 January 2018 - 04:32 PM, said:


Really? Two whole months? No reason to be a priority? Let me ask you, LotS. Say you were living in fear of being deported from the only country you really know, the country you have lived in possibly your entire life. Now, tell me how wonderful it would be for you to go another two months waiting, not knowing what your future holds, limbo. And remember, if it goes bad, in two months you will be deported, even though you are a tax payer, not a criminal, have a happy life, close friends, etc... You get sent back to a country you don't even know, where you have to figure out how to live, maybe how to keep from getting killed, because every d@mn thing you know, is the country that has now kicked you out.
Then you have to apply to re-enter your country (because it is your country after all that time), and wait, and wait, and wait...

Yes, it's almost two months.


Oh I do feel for the people who were brought here illegally, when they were children. It isn't their fault, it IS the fault of their parents.

My point about it not being a priority NOW, is that you pass the CR (which is really no way to govern, BTW) and THEN you move on to the DACA and immigration reform. You fund the government, then you make a deal for DACA protection in exchange for building the wall, ending the visa lottery and chain migration. Which, it seems, was originally going to be the way it was going to go, and the way it is going to go now that Schumer surrendered. The only difference being the government is funded for 3 weeks, instead of 4. Which still is really no way to govern, IMO.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#18 Omega

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Posted 23 January 2018 - 12:24 AM

^But that assumes that both sides are negotiating in good faith. McConnell clearly isn't, or he'd have brought up DACA before. And it's not possible for Trump to negotiate in good faith because he doesn't have consistent opinions and preferences from minute to minute.

#19 sierraleone

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Posted 24 January 2018 - 04:57 PM

The Republicans really want to bankrupt the government, so they can make government seem awful and cut all the programs the help citizens, don't they? Distract their base with red meat and make sure they don't know how much the GOP is adding to the deficit.

Reuters: Shutdown-ending bill seen expanding U.S. debt by $31 billion in decade

Thats on top of the $1.5 trillion that they added in to the debt when they passed their tax bill.

This temporary funding bill also means less congressional oversight of the Intelligence agencies now.
The Intercept: House Spending Bill Changes Law to Let Trump Administration Secretly Shift Intelligence Money

Quote

THE HOUSE SPENDING bill released Wednesday would allow President Donald Trump, or people under him, to secretly shift money to fund intelligence programs, a break with 70 years of governing tradition.

Since 1947, section 504 of the National Security Act has mandated that the administration inform Congress if it intends to shift money from one intelligence project to another, if the new project has not been authorized by Congress. That notification can be — and almost always is — done in secret, but it is at least a minimal check on executive power.

Edited by sierraleone, 24 January 2018 - 04:58 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#20 Elara

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Posted 25 January 2018 - 01:39 AM

View PostLord of the Sword, on 22 January 2018 - 04:44 PM, said:

Oh I do feel for the people who were brought here illegally, when they were children. It isn't their fault, it IS the fault of their parents.

What if the parents were trying to escape a life where it wasn't safe to raise their family? What if coming to the US was the only option? And what if they had to go NOW, not in the many months that it would take to come here legally? Still the parent's fault, or were they heroes saving their family? What would you be if you were in their shoes? Criminal or hero?
Don't get me wrong, coming here legally is better, but if they are here, living a crime free life, buying locally, working jobs that few people want, paying taxes, etc... Why are we tossing them out? That is our government cutting off it's nose to spite it's face.

View PostLord of the Sword, on 22 January 2018 - 04:44 PM, said:

My point about it not being a priority NOW, is that you pass the CR (which is really no way to govern, BTW) and THEN you move on to the DACA and immigration reform. You fund the government, then you make a deal for DACA protection in exchange for building the wall, ending the visa lottery and chain migration. Which, it seems, was originally going to be the way it was going to go, and the way it is going to go now that Schumer surrendered. The only difference being the government is funded for 3 weeks, instead of 4. Which still is really no way to govern, IMO.

As Omega says, that is assuming they will act in good faith. Two months is a very small window. There is no contract signed stating that they will attend to DACA. Oh sure, they will deal with immigration reform, no doubt. Or at least say they are dealing with it. After all, they want to make the American (Republican) people feel safe, believing that their Republican saviors are fighting the good fight against the evil Democrats.

And do you really believe that this magical wall is going to stop people from coming here? Are you happy to pay for something that foolish?
Do you believe that if we end immigration, that there will never be terrorism here?
El
~ blue crystal glows, the dark side unseen, sparkles in scant light, from sun to planet, to me in between ~


I want a job in HRC's "shadow" cabinet. Good pay, really easy hours, lots of time off. Can't go wrong.

"You have a fair and valid point here. I've pointed out, numerous times, that the Left's or Democrats always cry "Racist" whenever someone disagrees with them. I failed to realize that the Right or Republicans do the same thing with "Liberal"." ~ LotS


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