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Arrow/The Flash/Supergirl: Elseworlds

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#1 Virgil Vox

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Posted 09 December 2018 - 01:47 PM

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EPIC ELSEWORLDS CROSSOVER KICKS OFF TONIGHT — When Barry Allen (Grant Gustin) and Oliver Queen (guest star Stephen Amell) wake up one morning and realize they have swapped bodies with each other, the two set off to find out what disturbed the timeline to cause such a shift. However, things quickly go from bad to worse when they present their case to Team Flash and the gang doesn’t believe them. Barry and Oliver realize they need Supergirl’s (guest star Melissa Benoist) help and travel to Smallville on Earth-38 where they end up meeting Kara’s cousin, Clark Kent (guest star Tyler Hoechlin), and intrepid reporter, Lois Lane (guest star Elizabeth Tulloch). LaMonica Garrett guest stars as The Monitor.

Like the last few cross-overs I thought I would create one thread for the event. It starts tonight, continues on Monday, and finishes on Tuesday. The Legends are not part of this cross-over.
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#2 RJDiogenes

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Posted 09 December 2018 - 05:46 PM

Elseworlds.  Intriguing....
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#3 Virgil Vox

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Posted 09 December 2018 - 10:42 PM

That was a great episode. I think what I appreciated the most was the humor. There were so many laugh out loud moments in this episode. My favorite might have been Barry shooting Oliver in the back with the arrows. Barry was just so excited and happy to repay Oliver for that moment way back in the first cross-over. Oliver's reaction to the more touchy-feely Flash team was hysterical as well.

I was grinning ear to ear when I heard "Somebody Save Me" as the camera panned down to the Kent farm from Smallville. I was geeking out hard core.

Elizabeth Tulloch makes for a good Lois Lane. I hope we see more of her in the cross-over, or at least on an episode or two of Supergirl.

The banter between Clark and Lois was spot on. It makes me wish we had a Superman show just so we could see more of it.

Tyler Hoechlin always impresses me as Superman. He just fits the role so much. I'm glad he had a good role here, and that it looks like we will be seeing him again.

Oliver puffing out his chest when meeting Clark was priceless.

Amazo was pretty cool and a welcome surprise. I had no idea the android was going to be in this episode. The big fight against him at the end was awesome, though I slapped my forehead when Supergirl, Superman, Barry, and Oliver just stood there and let Amazo copy their powers. That was pretty dumb.

Oliver and Barry being hero-swapped made for great entertainment. There were the hilarious moments obviously but it also helped get to the core of the characters and what motivate them. They are day and night, literally. Oliver gets his strength from the darkness within whereas Barry keeps his mind on happier things. Seeing the two adopt the more overt parts of each other's personalities was strange. Like Iris, I hope Barry doesn't take on the worst aspects of Oliver's personality.

I'm assuming John Deegan is supposed to be John Dee, aka Doctor Destiny?

It seems like the Monitor wrecked Earth-90 but on Earth-1 he seems content to let Deegan warp reality. I wonder what his endgame is?

Red skies are never good.

The tease of Gotham and Batwoman at the end was fantastic. It has me stoked for the second part.

I was worried that any cross-over would pale in comparison to Crisis on Earth-X but I should have trusted the creative teams on this show. Elseworlds may not have the grand feeling and huge stakes (yet) that the previous cross-over did but this first episode was terrific and promises great things to come.
"You will give the people an ideal to strive towards. They will race behind you. They will stumble. They will fall. But in time, they will join you in the sun. In time, you will help them accomplish wonders."
--Jor-El


It's a recession when your neighbor loses his job: it's a depression when you lose yours.
-- Harry S. Truman

#4 Christopher

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Posted 09 December 2018 - 10:57 PM

You know what would be a funny Easter egg? If tomorrow's Legends episode has red skies without any explanation.


This wasn't what I expected -- more of a self-contained story with setup for the rest. I thought that Flash-90 would show up here and explain the basic situation, but I guess it's going to stay a mystery a little longer.

I wish they'd acknowledged that Oliver had a history with Professor Ivo. They did make a token nod to it with a technobabble handwave about AMAZO being somehow Mirakuru-based, which didn't make much sense. And having the "M" in "AMAZO" stand for "Metahuman" doesn't explain how Ivo had a ship called Amazo five years before the first metahumans showed up. Also, how does AMAZO manifest the characters' logos when it absorbs their powers? Heck, it showed the comics' Elongated Man logo, which our Ralph doesn't even have on his costume.

But speaking of explanations, we finally, after five years, get an answer to the question of whether there are toilets in the Pipeline.

I would've appreciated the in-joke of using the Smallville theme song more if I didn't hate that song. As for our first look at Lois, I think Elizabeth Tulloch did pretty well, and I liked the insights we got into her and Clark's relationship.



View PostVirgil Vox, on 09 December 2018 - 10:42 PM, said:

My favorite might have been Barry shooting Oliver in the back with the arrows. Barry was just so excited and happy to repay Oliver for that moment way back in the first cross-over.

Well, the first crossover between two different shows, but the second crossover between Barry and Oliver, since Barry was introduced in an Arrow 2-parter the season before.



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Elizabeth Tulloch makes for a good Lois Lane. I hope we see more of her in the cross-over, or at least on an episode or two of Supergirl.

I recall reading that she's supposed to be in all three parts. And now that she and Clark are back from Argo, I hope they do turn up more in Supergirl.



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I'm assuming John Deegan is supposed to be John Dee, aka Doctor Destiny?

That's what I've heard.


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It seems like the Monitor wrecked Earth-90 but on Earth-1 he seems content to let Deegan warp reality. I wonder what his endgame is?

What he said to the Earth-90 Flash was "You did this to yourself. You failed." I think the reality alterations are a test of a universe's worth, and the denizens of Earth-90 failed the Monitor's test, so they were destroyed.
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#5 G-man

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 10:02 AM

What I want to know is why would the Flash of Earth 90 refer to his own world as "Earth 90"?

That would require him to be familiar with the numbering system our gang in Central City (Earth-1) had devised, and it would make sense for the numbers to be assigned in order of visitation – unless they had some mechanism to discover the other Earths short of visiting them in person.

Alternatively, it may well be that there was some objective map that the viber’s referenced when visiting worlds that happened to coincidentally assigned “Earth-1” to the Earth that our gang happened to reside on.

I get it is for audience convenience to eliminate confusion, but in universe it doesn’t make sense.

OTOH, I liked the discussion of whether it was “Freaky Friday” or “Quantum Leap” that best defined the Barry-Ollie body-swap.

Likewise, the whole notion of whether Batman was real or myth was a nice touch.

Then the interaction between Batwoman and Supergirl was kinda nice … especially with Supergirl scoping out all of Kathy Kane’s tattoos (goes off humming “Can’t you feel the love tonight”) :p  And, of course, Kathy Kane is Bruce Wayne’s cousin :rolleyes:

/s/

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#6 Christopher

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 10:42 AM

View PostG-man, on 11 December 2018 - 10:02 AM, said:

What I want to know is why would the Flash of Earth 90 refer to his own world as "Earth 90"?

That would require him to be familiar with the numbering system our gang in Central City (Earth-1) had devised, and it would make sense for the numbers to be assigned in order of visitation – unless they had some mechanism to discover the other Earths short of visiting them in person.

That isn't the first time that's happened in the Arrowverse. It's just a convenient narrative shorthand.

But remember, Flash-90 has been active for 28 years, and he seems to have the same power set as other speedsters. And one of the dead heroes in the Earth-90 teaser scene was Vibe. So we can assume that Flash-90 has had a lot of experience traveling the multiverse and is familiar with the numbering system.

Did you notice the bit where Flash-90 asked John Diggle why he wasn't wearing his ring? That's a nod to a popular fan theory/hope that Diggle would turn out to be John Stewart and would become a Green Lantern. Nice to know that's actually true of his Earth-90 doppelganger.


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Likewise, the whole notion of whether Batman was real or myth was a nice touch.

In the past, I never thought it would be possible to incorporate Batman into the Arrowverse, given that Oliver's vigilantism was treated as unprecedented. They actually did a pretty deft job of rationalizing that, with Ollie dismissing Batman as an urban myth, and with the line about the city's decay being "why no one talks about Gotham."



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Then the interaction between Batwoman and Supergirl was kinda nice … especially with Supergirl scoping out all of Kathy Kane’s tattoos (goes off humming “Can’t you feel the love tonight”) :p  And, of course, Kathy Kane is Bruce Wayne’s cousin :rolleyes:

The modern Batwoman's name is Kate Kane. And yeah, that bit with the tattoos was oddly voyeuristic on Kara's part. Her sister's the one who's into girls.

I was very impressed with Ruby Rose as Kate/Batwoman. She's a striking, strong, charismatic presence, and I'm eager to see more of her. The costume design is fantastic.
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#7 G-man

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Posted 13 December 2018 - 08:25 AM

I'll bite ... who is the man in the golden mask?

From the show I thought he was some random thug, but the tag suggests otherwise.

Is he someone I ought to recognize if I had followed the comics?

/s/

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Let me strive every moment of my life to make myself better and better, to the best of my ability, so that all may profit by it.
Let me think of the right and lend my assistance to all who may need it, with no regard for anything but justice.
Let me take what comes with a smile, without loss of courage.
Let me be considerate of my country, of my fellow citizens, and my associates in everything I say and do.
Let me do right to all, and wrong no man.
-- Doc Savage

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#8 Christopher

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Posted 13 December 2018 - 09:00 AM

View PostG-man, on 13 December 2018 - 08:25 AM, said:

I'll bite ... who is the man in the golden mask?

He's Roger Hayden/Psycho-Pirate, a Silver Age Earth-Two villain (taking over the identity from the Golden Age original) who became an accomplice of the Anti-Monitor in Crisis on Infinite Earths, and was established afterward as the only person who remembered the pre-Crisis history after reality was rewritten. He's a fairly minor character otherwise. His only prior screen appearance as a speaking character was in Batman: The Brave and the Bold, where he was voiced by Armin Shimerman in one episode and appeared in cameo in another.
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#9 Sci-Fi Girl

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Posted 13 December 2018 - 10:17 AM

So, Kara is familiar with Gotham, and suggests that she and Clark have known Batman for ages.  But ... this is Earth-1 Gotham.

I am confused ... What am I missing?

I mean, Kara and Clark are from Earth-38.  But Kara knew her way around Earth-1 Gotham, and said that Clark was "frenemies" with Bruce.  Was she thinking of the Gotham on Earth-38, and expecting them to be the same?

I just feel like I am missing something.

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#10 Christopher

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Posted 13 December 2018 - 11:06 AM

View PostSci-Fi Girl, on 13 December 2018 - 10:17 AM, said:

So, Kara is familiar with Gotham, and suggests that she and Clark have known Batman for ages.  But ... this is Earth-1 Gotham.

I am confused ... What am I missing?

There have been several references in Supergirl to Gotham and Batman existing on Earth-38. Kara referred to Clark working with a vigilante with "lots of gadgets, lots of issues," and Winn once referred to Clark's vigilante friend while holding up his fingers to mimic the ears on Batman's cowl. So evidently Batman exists on Earth-38, and now we know that he exists on Earth-1 too.



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I mean, Kara and Clark are from Earth-38.  But Kara knew her way around Earth-1 Gotham, and said that Clark was "frenemies" with Bruce.  Was she thinking of the Gotham on Earth-38, and expecting them to be the same?

No reason they shouldn't be. It's true that there are a lot of differences between parallel Earths, but there are a lot of similarities too -- e.g. anything from our reality and pop culture that gets referenced in both shows. (The first Flash/Supergirl crossover established that Mariah Carey exists on both worlds, for instance.) Of course, we've seen that lots of doppelgangers lead very different lives -- Earth-2 Barry isn't a speedster, Earth-2 Oliver died and Robert Queen became the Green Arrow, Earth-X Oliver was the leader of the Nazis -- but sometimes doppelgangers do follow the same path, like most versions of Harrison Wells being genius scientists. In the Earth-90 prologue with the 1990 Flash and the Monitor, we saw doppelgangers of a number of Earth-1 heroes like Vibe, Huntress, the Hawks, and Stargirl. So while Batman is the first superhero known to exist on both Earth-1 and Earth-38, there's no reason why that shouldn't be possible. In fact, it's surprising there aren't more duplicate heroes between those two worlds.

Of course the Batmen of Earth-1 and Earth-38 aren't exactly the same, since as far as we know, the Earth-38 Batman is still active, while the Earth-1 Batman disappeared 3 years ago. (A commenter on another board made the very reasonable suggestion that Earth-38 Batman was better off for having Superman's friendship and thus didn't suffer the same career-ending setback that befell Earth-1's Batman.) But since both universes' Bruce Waynes became Batman, it was reasonable for Kara to assume they'd led fairly similar lives, and thus she could get away with the small deception of talking about her universe's Bruce as though he were Kate's Bruce.
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#11 Cybersnark

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Posted 13 December 2018 - 11:39 AM

View PostChristopher, on 13 December 2018 - 09:00 AM, said:

View PostG-man, on 13 December 2018 - 08:25 AM, said:

I'll bite ... who is the man in the golden mask?

He's Roger Hayden/Psycho-Pirate,
And if you're expecting him to dress or act in any way like a pirate, prepare to be disappointed.

(His comics costume is, bafflingly, more of a harlequin court jester. It makes no sense.)
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#12 Christopher

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Posted 13 December 2018 - 11:55 AM

View PostCybersnark, on 13 December 2018 - 11:39 AM, said:

And if you're expecting him to dress or act in any way like a pirate, prepare to be disappointed.

(His comics costume is, bafflingly, more of a harlequin court jester. It makes no sense.)

"Pirate" doesn't mean someone who dresses a certain way, it means someone who commits robbery or plunder. Psycho-Pirate is called that because he commits crimes based on psychological and emotional manipulation. His Medusa Mask lets him project his emotions onto others or amplify their emotions coercively (although that's sort of the opposite of piracy because he's forcing something onto them rather than forcibly taking it from them). The "jester" theme, as you call it, is probably based more on the masks and costumes used in commedia dell'arte or the paired comedy/tragedy masks used since antiquity to symbolize the theater.
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#13 Sci-Fi Girl

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Posted 13 December 2018 - 12:13 PM

Ok, that makes sense.  :)

View PostChristopher, on 13 December 2018 - 11:06 AM, said:

Of course the Batmen of Earth-1 and Earth-38 aren't exactly the same, since as far as we know, the Earth-38 Batman is still active, while the Earth-1 Batman disappeared 3 years ago. (A commenter on another board made the very reasonable suggestion that Earth-38 Batman was better off for having Superman's friendship and thus didn't suffer the same career-ending setback that befell Earth-1's Batman.) But since both universes' Bruce Waynes became Batman, it was reasonable for Kara to assume they'd led fairly similar lives, and thus she could get away with the small deception of talking about her universe's Bruce as though he were Kate's Bruce.

Yep, that works.  :nod:

View PostChristopher, on 13 December 2018 - 11:06 AM, said:

Of course the Batmen of Earth-1 and Earth-38 aren't exactly the same, since as far as we know, the Earth-38 Batman is still active, while the Earth-1 Batman disappeared 3 years ago. (A commenter on another board made the very reasonable suggestion that Earth-38 Batman was better off for having Superman's friendship and thus didn't suffer the same career-ending setback that befell Earth-1's Batman.)

Oh, I like that theory!  :cool:

SFG

Edited by Sci-Fi Girl, 13 December 2018 - 12:14 PM.

"A song is like a picture of a bird in flight; the bird was moving before the picture was taken, and no doubt continued after."   - Pete Seeger

Pete Seeger's life was a picture of an idea in flight, and the idea will continue long after.  As long as there are people with goodness and courage in their hearts, the idea will continue forever.

Posted Image   Posted Image


Check out my music threads:

Beautiful Music: Folk, Acoustic, Traditional, and World

A Celebration of Song Lyrics, New and Old: Just the poetry  (to include those with different musical tastes than me)

When Sci Fi Actors Sing

#14 G-man

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Posted 13 December 2018 - 03:46 PM

Hmmm ... according to IMDb, there is a Batwoman TV Series due to premier in 2019 starring Ruby Rose.

Given that the series is in pre-production, I’m thinking that the producers shot the Elseworlds and liked what they saw.  So, I would expect that Batwoman will debut Fall 2019.

/s/

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Edited by G-man, 14 December 2018 - 12:51 PM.

Let me strive every moment of my life to make myself better and better, to the best of my ability, so that all may profit by it.
Let me think of the right and lend my assistance to all who may need it, with no regard for anything but justice.
Let me take what comes with a smile, without loss of courage.
Let me be considerate of my country, of my fellow citizens, and my associates in everything I say and do.
Let me do right to all, and wrong no man.
-- Doc Savage

Few people want to be moderated, most people see the need for everyone else to be moderated. -- Orpheus

#15 Christopher

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Posted 13 December 2018 - 04:12 PM

View PostG-man, on 13 December 2018 - 03:46 PM, said:

Hmmm ... according to IMDb, there is a Batwoman TV Series due to premier in 2019 starring Ruby Rose.

At this point, all that's been confirmed is that the series is in development and a pilot is going to be shot. The series hasn't actually been picked up yet. Although Ruby Rose gave such a strong showing this week that I'd be amazed if they didn't go ahead with it.
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"The first man to raise a fist is the man who's run out of ideas." -- "H. G. Wells," Time After Time


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