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Clark to ABC: Fire Limbaugh over McNabb

Elections 2004 Democrats Wesley Clark Limbaugh

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#1 Rov Judicata

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Posted 01 October 2003 - 04:06 PM

http://www.washingto...3-2003Oct1.html

Don't normally post links via fark, but this is a good one

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WASHINGTON - Democratic presidential candidate Wesley Clark on Wednesday urged ABC to fire conservative commentator Rush Limbaugh for saying the media wanted Philadelphia Eagles quarterback Donovan McNabb to succeed because he is black.

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Clark, a retired Army general who entered the race Sept. 17, called the remarks "hateful and ignorant speech."

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"I think what we've had here is a little social concern in the NFL. The media has been very desirous that a black quarterback do well," Limbaugh said. "There is a little hope invested in McNabb, and he got a lot of credit for the performance of this team that he didn't deserve. The defense carried this team."


First, I've heard a lot of commentators say that defense has carried the Philly franchise. Given that they did fairly well with a third string QB last year, I think that's somewhat valid. Anyway, even if he's wrong, it's not controversial to say a player is getting more credit than he deserves. People do that all the time.

So the real issue is whether the media has a bias in that it wants a black man to succeed at quarterbacking.

Loathe as I am to do this,  I'm on Limbaugh's side. I have no idea whether the sports media has a sort of 'affirmative action' bias, and I'm not really that interested.

My question is this: Do we really want a situation where suggesting the media might be racially biased creates a situation where a broadcaster can lose his job? And would this even be a story if a black man had said it?

Edited by Javert Rovinski, 01 October 2003 - 04:09 PM.

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#2 MuseZack

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Posted 01 October 2003 - 04:12 PM

Two things:

One, I'm on record as having supported Limbaugh's hiring by ESPN because politics aside, he's a talented broadcaster and I thought he'd be smart enough to keep his stupid political opinions out of his sports commentary.  Ooops.  I gave the guy too much credit.


Two, remember the whole Dusty Baker brouhaha a while back?  White commentators fell alll over themselves tut-tutting at the former Giants manager.  So I'd say yes, this would be an issue if the commentator was black.
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#3 Rov Judicata

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Posted 01 October 2003 - 04:18 PM

^

Pop Quiz: As a response to this, will ESPN's Sunday Countdown (or whatever) ratings go up or down? I firmly believe it's the former; if that's the case, it sounds like ABC played its cards about right.


Quote

Two, remember the whole Dusty Baker brouhaha a while back? White commentators fell alll over themselves tut-tutting at the former Giants manager. So I'd say yes, this would be an issue if the commentator was black.

That's a bit different. Baker said that blacks actually *were* better at something. Rush said that, thanks to media bias, blacks were *perceived* as better.

What if somebody had said that black athletes don't get enough credit because they're black? I think people would just laugh him off. Why the difference?
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#4 Drew

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Posted 01 October 2003 - 04:19 PM

And what does this tell us about Wesley Clark?

Well, for one thing, he thinks someone should be fired for suggesting that there's such a thing as media bias.  :cool:

For awhile there, he seemed like a Democrat I Could Vote For, but between this and the time-travel thing, he's starting to sound like this year's Ross Perot.
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#5 G1223

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Posted 01 October 2003 - 04:19 PM

Odd Clark wanting somebody fired. When he had to be fired by Clinton.
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#6 DWF

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Posted 01 October 2003 - 04:20 PM

I can't believe anybody could be quite this stupid, and of course he(Limbaugh) won't apolgize, which on;y makes things worse. :rolleyes:  :eh:
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#7 Rov Judicata

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Posted 01 October 2003 - 04:23 PM

Drew-- I don't mind the time travel thing. I do find this one a bit disturbing. In some cases, I don't mind calls for firings-- such as in the Savage mess-- I just don't feel it's possible inappropriate in this case.

DWF-- Nah, if Rush apologizes he makes it *much* worse, because it's a tacit admission that he did make a racist comment. At this point, that's the last thing he needs.
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#8 QuiGon John

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Posted 01 October 2003 - 04:25 PM

Here's my view:

* Although skeptical about the idea of Limbaugh-as-football-commentator, the one time I tuned in and saw him on the pregame show (pre-McNabb incident), he seemed to have some intelligent things to say about the game.  I came away grudgingly impressed.

* That said, he's out of his mind on this issue.  I'm on record as believing Donovan McNabb is the best player in the league, or at least the best quarterback.  Saying he's not very good may not be racist, but IMO it's terribly inaccurate.

* I don't like what he said about the league "rooting for" black quarterbacks and don't believe it's true.  If anything, I think, black quarterbacks *still* have a harder time getting respect than their white counterparts.  Things haven't changed that much since Doug Williams.

* However, as Rov says, there's a difference between saying something about blacks and saying something about the media's attitude toward blacks.  I could understand a mild censure for the latter, but it's not quite the same as racism.

*Therefore, I believe Clark is out of line to suggest he be fired.  But I hope Rush finds something less idiotic to say next week.

#9 Rov Judicata

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Posted 01 October 2003 - 04:28 PM

John Burke, on Oct 1 2003, 02:25 PM, said:

I hope Rush finds something less idiotic to say next week.
... I wouldn't count on it.

Yeah, I agree with your analysis (with the proviso that I haven't watched enough Philly football to have formed an opinion about McNabb). I hate Rush; I think he's one of the worst things to happen to public discourse in a long time.

I just don't think this is an issue to harass him over. Given hes reputation, surely he's done things far worse than this. Right?
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#10 MuseZack

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Posted 01 October 2003 - 04:30 PM

Javert Rovinski, on Oct 1 2003, 09:18 PM, said:

^

Pop Quiz: As a response to this, will ESPN's Sunday Countdown (or whatever) ratings go up or down? I firmly believe it's the former; if that's the case, it sounds like ABC played its cards about right.


Quote

Two, remember the whole Dusty Baker brouhaha a while back? White commentators fell alll over themselves tut-tutting at the former Giants manager. So I'd say yes, this would be an issue if the commentator was black.

That's a bit different. Baker said that blacks actually *were* better at something. Rush said that, thanks to media bias, blacks were *perceived* as better.

What if somebody had said that black athletes don't get enough credit because they're black? I think people would just laugh him off. Why the difference?
Okay, Javert, I'll take you up on that challenge.  Black athletes don't get enough credit for their accomplishments because they're black.  There, I said it.

How many times have you seen an exceptional black competitor get called "a natural athlete" while his white counterparts are hailed as "hard workers?"   As if Michael Jordan didn't practice free throws until his arms were ready to fall off.  The clear implication in a lot of sports journalism is that black players succeed because of genetics and innate ability while white players make it because of hard work and determination.  And that ends up denigrating the incredible amount of work it takes for anybody to become a professional athlete.

Zack
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#11 GiGi

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Posted 01 October 2003 - 04:36 PM

I missed the time travel thing, what was that about?!

Rush is an idiot in my book, he doesn't deserve the breaks he's gotten.  Again, my opinion.  I would just love to see him in the unemployment line!  

:devil:

So, if it wasn't an issue of race, why did he have to phrase it like this - "media have overrated the Philadelphia Eagles' Donovan McNabb because they want to see a black quarterback succeed. "

I don't follow football and at least one person in this thread who does says this statement is out of line.

Me thinks Rush should do some community service in Harlem, he may learn a thing or two!!
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#12 Rov Judicata

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Posted 01 October 2003 - 04:37 PM

^

And if Rush had said that, nobody would have raised a stink (I don't think). And I didn't mean 'laugh it off' in the sense of 'not take it seriously'; that was poorly phrased. Rather, I meant that it simply wouldn't cause a controversial issue.

I grew up around Chicago during the Michael Jordan era; you're right, he was almost always referred to as a natural athlete, something I hadn't considered before. The bottom line is that both sides can be intellectually honest. Rush is just an easy target, because he's done so many stupid things in the past.

The more I look at this, the less of a story there seems to be. :ninja:
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#13 QuiGon John

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Posted 01 October 2003 - 04:37 PM

Re: Zack's point:

There's a book called "Forty-Eight Minutes," I want to say by Terry Pluto and somebody else, about a basketball game in the mid-eighties.  It was specifically about one game between the Celtics and Cavaliers, but made some general comments about the league, too.

One thing it said-- and I'm paraphrasing-- was that blacks were just generally considered around the NBA to be better natural athletes.  Essentially, if a white guy showed athletic talent, he was referred to as a "white leaper" and written off as an anomaly.

I found this commentary terribly annoying from both sides of the coin, and believe it was symptomatic of the racism that existed even among those inside the league back then, and more than likely lingers today.  So I have no problem believing, as I said, that black athletes even today don't get enough credit for their work.

But again, I don't see this specific comment as cause for a firing-- at least not on the grounds of racism.

#14 Drew

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Posted 01 October 2003 - 04:44 PM

MuseZack, on Oct 1 2003, 04:30 PM, said:

How many times have you seen an exceptional black competitor get called "a natural athlete" while his white counterparts are hailed as "hard workers?"   As if Michael Jordan didn't practice free throws until his arms were ready to fall off.  The clear implication in a lot of sports journalism is that black players succeed because of genetics and innate ability while white players make it because of hard work and determination.  And that ends up denigrating the incredible amount of work it takes for anybody to become a professional athlete.
Okay, so how is what Rush said any different that what Zack said? Rush says the media favors them, and Zack says they denigrate them. But both are criticizing the way the media treats black players.
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#15 DWF

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Posted 01 October 2003 - 04:44 PM

Javert Rovinski, on Oct 1 2003, 05:23 PM, said:

DWF-- Nah, if Rush apologizes he makes it *much* worse, because it's a tacit admission that he did make a racist comment. At this point, that's the last thing he needs.
I disagree, by apologizing for saying anything that might have offended McNabb, he publicly takes the ball out he court. The thing is though that, McNabb has already said that, he won't accept one anyway, perhaps knowing that for right now, this case is in a public court, so to speak. Tact never was one of Limbaugh's strong suits though.

And I think that by using the term "black quarterback" made it a racial comment, because there's no reason to single out McNabb's race before the word quarterback. :blink:
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#16 Drew

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Posted 01 October 2003 - 04:46 PM

Javert Rovinski, on Oct 1 2003, 04:37 PM, said:

Rush is just an easy target, because he's done so many stupid things in the past.
Bingo. And Clark can look like he's such a racially sensitive guy by calling for Rush's firing. Ooo, how brave of him!
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#17 Bad Wolf

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Posted 01 October 2003 - 05:22 PM

Here's what I think:

Donovan McNabb is one of the most overrated QB's of recent memory.  (Sorry John).

However, Limbaugh's implication that the reason he's overrated is because he's black is well...

um, it's racist.

Plain and simple.

Do I think the guy needs to lose his job over it?

I dunno.

Lil
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#18 QuiGon John

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Posted 01 October 2003 - 05:26 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Oct 1 2003, 06:22 PM, said:

Donovan McNabb is one of the most overrated QB's of recent memory.  (Sorry John).
No need to be sorry.  Just remember, when McNabb is overcoming these early-season doubting Thomases to lead the Eagles deep into the playoffs again, that I was one of the faithful.

That's reward enough. :p ;)

#19 Kevin Street

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Posted 01 October 2003 - 05:29 PM

Drew, on Oct 1 2003, 03:46 PM, said:

Javert Rovinski, on Oct 1 2003, 04:37 PM, said:

Rush is just an easy target, because he's done so many stupid things in the past.
Bingo. And Clark can look like he's such a racially sensitive guy by calling for Rush's firing. Ooo, how brave of him!
Yeah, Clark should pick his battles better than that. This business makes him look like he's in favour of censorship by corporation.
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#20 Bad Wolf

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Posted 01 October 2003 - 05:29 PM

^

Ya deep into the playoffs only to lose.

Um, I suppose the word "choke" is not something you will entertain in this instance either aye?


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