80 replies to this topic

[QuiGon John]

LOL!

Sure it is.  I think Rush Limbaugh had a chance to rehabilitate his national reputation with a successful stint as a commentator.

And he choked.   

[HubcapDave]

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Okay, Javert, I'll take you up on that challenge. Black athletes don't get enough credit for their accomplishments because they're black. There, I said it.

Zack, that has got to be one of the most cock-eyed, idiotic statements I have ever heard.

The person who is considered by most to be the greatest baseball player ever is black (Willie Mays)

The person who is considered to be the best wide reciever ever is black (Jerry Rice)

The person who is considered to be the best basketball player ever is black (Michael Jordan)

The person who has hit the most home runs of anyone in baseball is black (Hank Aaron)

The person who has hit the most home runs in a single season is black (Barry Bonds)


And speaking of Barry Bonds, this is the man who many consider to be the best baseball player of his time. Certainly, he has loads of "natural ability", but it has also been pointed out just how much work the man puts in to his hitting, his conditioning, etc.. It has been well chronicled the amount of "hard work" he puts in.

Jerry Rice is just as famous for his off season training and conditioning program as he is for his ability of the field.

I don't know how many 9er games I see where they show in the pregame Terrell Owens out on the field hours before the game working on running routes so he gets them down preicsely.

You should really think a statement like that through before you make a comment like that!

As for Rush's comment, so much more is being made of it than it really is. He's got a point, Donovan McNabb is not really a great quarterback. He's not commenting on McNabb's ability based on his skin color at all. All he is doing is admonishing the media for having a sort of "affirmative action" approach to reporting on the guy.

[schoolpsycho]

Rush Limbaugh's remarks were racist. Not necessarily inflammatory(though one could argue), but racist. The moment he said "Black quarterback". Anytime you bring color into it, it becomes racist, no matter what color it is.

Now, football. Donovan McNabb is one of the best players in the league right now. Number 2 in fact. Behind Vick. I saw him play in Syracuse, where he had to lead one of the most ridiculously complicated offenses in history, pro or college. Syracuse hasn't been any good since he left.

And true, his teams may have lost the last 2 years. But one team had gone to a Super Bowl and won, and having to see Tampa's defense regularly, I can tell you they can stifle  anyone. Right now, Michael Vick, soon-to-be the best player ever, can do nothing against them. So, I'm willing to cut McNabb some slack.

sp

[Bad Wolf]

well answered sir Burke!

Back to the subject.  I don't think this incident is remotely comparable to the Dusty stuff.  He was referring to matters of genetic fact, not accusing someone of receiving undeserved credit or praise because of their skin color.

Let me put it like this.

Let's say that Caucasians were the "protected class" and that some black commentator made a comment about Jeff Garcia getting more credit than he deserves because whites need a hero.

That would be just as racist.

Lil (who happens to think that Jeff, although a great human being, is also highly overrated as a QB)

Edited by Una Salus Lillius, 01 October 2003 - 05:56 PM.

[Bad Wolf]

Dave the problem with what you say is that Rice, Jordan, Mays (and btw, Babe RUTH is the best ever with the possible exception of Barry Bonds and Babe was white) is that your examples are exceptions, not the rule.

Moreover they are recent exceptions.


It wasn't so long ago that a black man couldn't even play in MLB because he was black.

Zack is clearly referring to history and that history cannot be refuted by references to a few glaring exceptions that, while positively indicative of a possible trend, do not negate the past and are in any  case, still exceptions.

[HubcapDave]

Una Salus Lillius, on Oct 1 2003, 03:22 PM, said:

Here's what I think:

Donovan McNabb is one of the most overrated QB's of recent memory.  (Sorry John).

However, Limbaugh's implication that the reason he's overrated is because he's black is well...

um, it's racist.

Plain and simple.

Do I think the guy needs to lose his job over it?

I dunno.

Lil

Uh, Lil, he made no implication like that whatsoever.

The only way color comes into play in his comments is in reference to what he thinks the media's motives in over-hyping McNabb. People are connecting the two comments incorrectly and making WAAAYYYY much more out of this than is really there.

[the 'Hawk]

HubcapDave, on Oct 1 2003, 06:46 PM, said:

The person who is considered by most to be the greatest baseball player ever is black (Willie Mays)

We could go 'round and 'round all day about who's the "greatest baseball player ever". So that's easily dismissed because you're not suggesting any criteria.

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The person who is considered to be the best wide reciever ever is black (Jerry Rice)

Rice is good, but he's not the only one. Of course, I've always been a fan of the running game m'self, so I couldn't tell you.

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The person who is considered to be the best basketball player ever is black (Michael Jordan)

Again-- grounds for such a judgement. Jordan was immensely talented but he also busted quite a lot of ass to get that way.

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The person who has hit the most home runs of anyone in baseball is black (Hank Aaron)

And he faced huge racist backlash for it at the time.

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The person who has hit the most home runs in a single season is black (Barry Bonds)

And before him, who was it? I think it was Sammy Sosa, or Mark McGwire. Before them? Mickey Mantle.

Take the long-view here. Jackie Robinson making waves isn't so distant a memory here. Sports aren't, nor have they ever truly been, colour-blind.

There are still a lot of positions in which the "greatest all-time" player in history isn't black. There are still a lot of records held by white guys.

What Zack said was that they don't get the press they deserve. Up here in 'Hawktown, which is close enough to both Buffalo and Toronto (but also Detroit, and for that matter Chicago) to get enough news to count, y'know who they were talking about when Sosa and McGwire went head-to-head? Big Mac. Not Sammy.

What I think Zack was drawing into question wasn't so much the question of who holds what records.

It was more about how much attention is lavished on a white guy for "working hard" to get where he is, not for a black guy to use his "natural abilities" to get there.

And to be honest, I agree with Zack. There's a huge misperception of blacks (a term I'm only comfortable using in this discussion because it seems generally accepted and I don't want to get all politicorrect on anyone) being some kind of super-athletic breed or something. Is there biological proof to support or deny it? Yeah, probably.

At the end of the day, though, it's not that these men (and women) are black or white or whatever.

It's that they're athletes. And they're damned good at what they do.

(Perhaps not worth as much as they make for it, but what can ya do....)

[HubcapDave]

Well, Ruth could pitch......but Mays was a better all around player. Perhaps I should have said "agruably". He is most certainly the best player alive. And as good as Bonds is, he's not as good as Mays.

And, yes it wasn't all that long ago, but I think Zack's comment seriously overlooks just how far we've come. In 50 years time we've gone from "blacks can't play in MLB" to many of the best players to have played the game being black.

Furthermore, I disagree that my examples are exceptions, rather they show the shift in attitude that has taken place. Also, I think Zack put quite a bit of spin on when someone is called a "natural athlete".

To put it bluntly, I think his statement is pure bunk.

[Bad Wolf]

Perhaps needless to say, I agree with Nox.

Dave well I'm not surprised.  I just think that you're wrong.

Progress doesn't mean there's no more problem.

[HubcapDave]

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We could go 'round and 'round all day about who's the "greatest baseball player ever". So that's easily dismissed because you're not suggesting any criteria.

Willie Mays is considered to be the prototype for what is known as the "Five Tool Player". He hit for average, he hit for power, he had good speed, he played excellent defense, and he had a strong throwing arm. those are the five tools.

Mays did all of them, and he did them better than anyone else did.


P.S.: If Mays hadn't played most of his career at Candlestick (and an open outfield Candlestick to boot!), the boy would have easily eclipsed Ruth in Homers.

[HubcapDave]

Una Salus Lillius, on Oct 1 2003, 04:14 PM, said:

Dave well I'm not surprised.  I just think that you're wrong.

Progress doesn't mean there's no more problem.

But look at the sheer amount of progress that has been made!


Besides, progress shows the direction that the whole subject has been heading. Rather than using what has happened in the past to invalidate "recent" progress, it should be used to contrast just how far things have come.

[Bad Wolf]

I don't disagree that there's been progress.

But your statement that Zack's statement was "total bunk" reads as if you think that there's no more problem.

And I'm sorry but I don't agree with that.

Sure it's nice to look at things from the pov of positive progress.

This does not mean that we should forget what it used to be like or lose sight of the work still needed to be done.

[QueenTiye]

Javert Rovinski, on Oct 1 2003, 05:06 PM, said:

My question is this: Do we really want a situation where suggesting the media might be racially biased creates a situation where a broadcaster can lose his job? And would this even be a story if a black man had said it?

Yes - it would have.  JUST this past summer some black athlete or coach (I forget which) was lambasted for claiming that blacks do better in the heat.

QT

[HubcapDave]

^^Not at all, Lil. Let's look at the statement.

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Okay, Javert, I'll take you up on that challenge. Black athletes don't get enough credit for their accomplishments because they're black. There, I said it.

How many times have you seen an exceptional black competitor get called "a natural athlete" while his white counterparts are hailed as "hard workers?" As if Michael Jordan didn't practice free throws until his arms were ready to fall off. The clear implication in a lot of sports journalism is that black players succeed because of genetics and innate ability while white players make it because of hard work and determination. And that ends up denigrating the incredible amount of work it takes for anybody to become a professional athlete.

First he makes his pronouncement. I go, "Huh?" I watch a fair amount of sports (albeit my focus is mainly on Bay Area teams), and I can't say that his open proclamation makes any sense.

Then I go into the proof of his argument, and he says a flat out falsehood. I think of several examples of black athletes being lauded for their hard work, which directly contradicts his statement. He is drawing conclusions from a flawed premise, and in my book, that is pure bunk.

Edited to add this: It was Dusty Baker who made the comment that Blacks and Latinos are better suited to playing in the heat.

Edited by HubcapDave, 01 October 2003 - 07:10 PM.

[QuiGon John]

Couple of matters of record-keeping.  First, on Hawk's post:

Before the Mac/Sosa thing, it was not Mantle who held the record, but Roger Maris.  Furthermore, the reason McGwire got publicity is that he was the one leading the race almost the entire way, and the one who ultimately broke it (although they both did before the season was out).  And Sammy Sosa was a media darling that year and has been since; I'm not sure where you get the idea he was short-shrifted in media attention.

Secondly, as far as the great players of baseball go, I'll take Ruth for now.  I recently did a study to pick the best players of every season since 1900: I came to the conclusion Ruth was the best pitcher in the league in 1916, and the best hitter in 1919.  Three years apart!  Nobody ever dominated the game like that, and of course you know what he did in the 20's...

I think Willie Mays was an awesome player, one of my favorites, but he didn't walk enough to match Ruth.  His on-base percentage, the most important offensive statistic, wasn't quite high enough to make him a comparable hitter to Ruth.  Sure, he was better all-around, but hitting's the most important part of the game for... well, a hitter.  Of course, then you have to adjust for the different eras they played in (and, as you note, parks), but I still think Ruth is ahead.

HOWEVER, Bonds does walk.  Almost too much, as recently discussed.  After twenty years or so, when he's good and done, I think we'll look back on Barry Bonds as the greatest player ever, even better than Ruth.  Mays is probably somewhere around #3-7 behind Ruth and Bonds, and in a group with Aaron, Mantle, Walter Johnson and Honus Wagner.

Of course, this is all ninety degrees off-topic, but I couldn't let it go past.   And one more thing: I agree with the point that Michael Jordan is an example of an African-American player renowned by the media for his work ethic as well as his talent.  But there's only one Michael Jordan, after all, and he's anything but a typical example of anything...

Edited by John Burke, 01 October 2003 - 07:15 PM.

[DWF]

^^^I guess nobody's ever heard of Edwin Moses then.


http://www.majortayl.../moses_bio.html

Or  Carl Lewis

http://espn.go.com/s...s/00016079.html

Edited by DWF, 01 October 2003 - 07:39 PM.

[Dev F]

QueenTiye, on Oct 1 2003, 06:58 PM, said:

Javert Rovinski, on Oct 1 2003, 05:06 PM, said:

My question is this: Do we really want a situation where suggesting the media might be racially biased creates a situation where a broadcaster can lose his job? And would this even be a story if a black man had said it?

Yes - it would have.  JUST this past summer some black athlete or coach (I forget which) was lambasted for claiming that blacks do better in the heat.

But that statement is not really comparable to Limbaugh's, which in no way implied that blacks had x or y quality. All Limbaugh suggested is that the media might look at blacks differently because of their racial bias -- hardly an outrageous premise, whether or not it is correct in this particular case.

--
Dev F

Edited by Dev F, 01 October 2003 - 07:36 PM.

[MuseZack]

Drew, on Oct 1 2003, 09:19 PM, said:

And what does this tell us about Wesley Clark?

Well, for one thing, he thinks someone should be fired for suggesting that there's such a thing as media bias. 

For awhile there, he seemed like a Democrat I Could Vote For, but between this and the time-travel thing, he's starting to sound like this year's Ross Perot.

BTW, I was baffled by the whole "time travel" comment until I did some digging.  It looks like "Wesley Clark believes in time travel" is this year's version of the right wing smear machine's "Al Gore claims he invented the Internet."  That is to say, a complete misrepresentation of what Clark actually said, which can be found here.

http://www.wired.com...3,60629,00.html

"I still believe in e=mc², but I can't believe that in all of human history, we'll never ever be able to go beyond the speed of light to reach where we want to go," said Clark. "I happen to believe that mankind can do it.

"I've argued with physicists about it, I've argued with best friends about it. I just have to believe it. It's my only faith-based initiative." Clark's comment prompted laughter and applause from the gathering.

You think a comment like that and a belief in human ingenuity's to overcome the light speed limitation would endear him to a board of science fiction fans rather than peg him as a wingnut.  But that's just me...

[DWF]

^^^And he's a sci-fi fan too, go figure.

[QuiGon John]

Okay, so... Clark's like us?  And this is a good thing?

Who here would willingly elect an Ex Isler president?  Anybody?

(Just kidding, of course, really... )