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Clark to ABC: Fire Limbaugh over McNabb

Elections 2004 Democrats Wesley Clark Limbaugh

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#61 G1223

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Posted 02 October 2003 - 10:33 AM

And of course  Clark has no motive other than to stand  aginst racism  in this issue? If you believe that I have some property on venus you would just love. :rolleyes:
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#62 QuiGon John

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Posted 02 October 2003 - 10:41 AM

^ Note to Rov: I accidentally mangled your post with the edit button instead of the quote button again; fortunately, this time I was able to go back to the original screen and find the quote to restore what you said.  But if you find any errors, it's my fault, and I apologize.  I have GOT to learn to deal with the frelling buttons in this forum without causing international incidents...

All I was going to say was:

Quote

If we take sixteen ounces from a cow that weighs hundreds of pounds, we still call it a huge steak. While significiant in its own rite,

Especially to the cow!   :Oo:  And then I made some crack about The Cow of Venice, but now the moment's gone...  :pout:  :ninja:

Edited by John Burke, 02 October 2003 - 10:42 AM.


#63 Rov Judicata

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Posted 02 October 2003 - 10:45 AM

LOL John.

And no problem, it looks about right.

:ninja:
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#64 HubcapDave

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Posted 02 October 2003 - 02:13 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Oct 2 2003, 02:49 AM, said:

:wacko:

Either it's almost 3 in the morning or this thread has taken a turn for the Twilight Zone or....

;)

Quote

After twenty years or so, when he's good and done, I think we'll look back on Barry Bonds as the greatest player ever, even better than Ruth.

And on THAT we agree.

The reason that Rush's statememts were racist was that implication that those who overrated McNabb were doing so because of McNabb's skin color.

It doesn't get a hell of a lot clearer or simpler than that.

Lil
Lil, did you actually watch the segment with his comments?


If not, I suggest you do.




Also lost in this whole discussion is the fact that two weeks earlier he actually stuck up for blacks when he said the NFL's minority hiring policy for head coaches was actually hurting the chances of many of black assistant coaches. Let's be straight here, the man is not, nor ever has been, a racist. The worst thing that happened here was that Rush accused the media of taking an "affirmative action" approach to how they protray McNabb as a quarterback. If anything, Rush is accusing the media of a racist practice.

Edited by HubcapDave, 02 October 2003 - 02:14 PM.


#65 Rov Judicata

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Posted 02 October 2003 - 02:29 PM

^

Precisely. Again, it returns to the central point: If Rush had said McNabb was *underrated* because of race, would that be racist?

If not, then that's blatantly inconsistent.

If so, then we're at the point where nobody can suggest that somebody might be treated differently because of race.

Either way, we're in an awful lot of trouble.
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#66 HubcapDave

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Posted 02 October 2003 - 02:34 PM

^

It's almost to the point of saying "bomb" on an airplane!

#67 Rhea

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Posted 02 October 2003 - 02:45 PM

Quote

I think what we've had here is a little social concern in the NFL. The media has been very desirous that a black quarterback do well," Limbaugh said. "There is a little hope invested in McNabb, and he got a lot of credit for the performance of this team that he didn't deserve. The defense carried this team."

Gee, so he's not racist, he's just accusing McNabb of being an untalented goof who couldn't have gotten a job in the NFL if he hadn't been black, managing thereby to both accuse the people who hired him of reverse racism and denigrate McNabb at the same time.

Way to go, Rush. :p :p And a very apt illustration of the man's consistent gift for offending EVERYBODY.  :devil:

Why is it racist? Because he apparently never considered that McNabb, like many another quarterback, black or white, was hired because he was considered good enough to do the job, and hasn't quite lived up to expectations. And of course Rush only considered that this might have happened BECAUSE McNabb's black.

Or, to put it simply, if McNabb had been a white quarterback who had failed to live up to expectations, his race would never have been mentioned by Mr. Limbaugh. And THAT'S why it's racist.

Edited by Rhea, 02 October 2003 - 02:48 PM.

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#68 Drew

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Posted 02 October 2003 - 02:50 PM

EDIT.

Edited by Drew, 02 October 2003 - 02:50 PM.

"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#69 Drew

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Posted 02 October 2003 - 02:53 PM

Rhea, on Oct 2 2003, 02:45 PM, said:

Quote

I think what we've had here is a little social concern in the NFL. The media has been very desirous that a black quarterback do well," Limbaugh said. "There is a little hope invested in McNabb, and he got a lot of credit for the performance of this team that he didn't deserve. The defense carried this team."

Gee, so he's not racist, he's just accusing McNabb of being an untalented goof who couldn't have gotten a job in the NFL if he hadn't been black, managing thereby to both accuse the people who hired him of reverse racism and denigrate McNabb at the same time.
No, he didn't say anything about how McNabb got his job. He's talking about the sports media.
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#70 the 'Hawk

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Posted 02 October 2003 - 02:56 PM

Javert Rovinski, on Oct 2 2003, 03:29 PM, said:

we're at the point where nobody can suggest that somebody might be treated differently because of race.
Not "might". "Is". It has to be in the desert of the real in order for it to burn whoever put it there.

(Or does it? Now I'm not even sure.)

Me, personally, I'm not comfortable bringing in issues of race to *anything*, just the same as I'm not comfortable bringing in personal factors or issues of age, sex, sexual preference, whatever, if it's not reasonably necessary.

For the simple reason that if I can't divide my thinking thoroughly enough to leave genetics out of the matter, whatever the matter may be, then I should find something else to think about. I force myself to leave those matters out because there's nothing anyone can do about it.

And maybe bringing in the issue of race is valid. That's why I rely upon "reasonable necessity".

What bugs me is that there are those who don't. *Everything* becomes a matter of race or sexual orientation --even when it's not valid to discuss.

There's nothing to suggest that race can't be discussed. But --and this is just me, of course-- I would rather do it carefully, would rather leave it out of matters where I don't have a clear mandate (as I would perceive it necessary, out of basic respect) to discuss it.

Unsolicited discussions of matters like race or sensitive and tricky matters like that, come off (and again, I want to say again, this is just me saying that it comes off) as an attempt to force the issue.

Reminds me of the time my parents tried to talk to me about drugs-- they weren't comfortable with the issue, and neither was I, so it just turned into a staring contest because neither side felt they had grounds to say what they needed to hear being said, for fear of having the wrong effect. Whether that was them trying to handle a difficult situation or trying to treat me with respect, I don't know. It's really not a big deal to me anymore because, through my own experiences, I've formed my own opinions on drugs. Same with race.

And to me, it's not so much a desire to be hypocritical or to be wrong. It's more of a desire to avoid those who think there's one all-solving "right" answer.

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#71 QuiGon John

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Posted 02 October 2003 - 02:57 PM

Well, there's been a lot of questioning, "If he'd said McNabb were underrated...", "If McNabb were white..."  So let's flip this on its ear.

There was a famous incident-- and forgive me, I don't recall the specifics-- wherein Dennis Rodman, at the time a basketball player for the Detroit Pistons (and not yet the... erm, eccentric... he would become later in his career), said that if Larry Bird were black, nobody ever would have heard of him.

Although Rush was more specific in addressing his comments to the media, this strikes me as the same sort of comment from the other side: "McNabb's overrated because he's black / Bird's overrated because he's white."

Now, Boston Celtics fans were ticked by that comment, which was also remarkably stupid.  Hey, I rooted against Dennis Rodman for 15 years because of that one sentence.  But to my knowledge-- and I was young then, so I'm not certain-- but to my knowledge, no disciplinary action was taken, nor was it seriously suggested.  Certainly nobody seriously considered firing Rodman.

I think that's the argument here: Hate the words, absolutely, but generally people have made equivalent comments without facing serious censure.  Anyway, I just thought I'd throw that one there; not sure what it adds up to.

#72 MuseZack

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Posted 02 October 2003 - 03:00 PM

HubcapDave, on Oct 2 2003, 07:13 PM, said:

Also lost in this whole discussion is the fact that two weeks earlier he actually stuck up for blacks when he said the NFL's minority hiring policy for head coaches was actually hurting the chances of many of black assistant coaches. Let's be straight here, the man is not, nor ever has been, a racist.
As a young broadcaster in the 1970s, Limbaugh once told a black caller: "Take that bone out of your nose and call me back." A decade ago, after becoming nationally syndicated, he mused on the air: "Have you ever noticed how all composite pictures of wanted criminals resemble Jesse Jackson?"  

In 1992, on his now-defunct TV show, Limbaugh expressed his ire when Spike Lee urged that black schoolchildren get off from school to see his film Malcolm X: "Spike, if you're going to do that, let's complete the education experience. You should tell them that they should loot the theater, and then blow it up on their way out."  

In a similar vein, here is Limbaugh's mocking take on the NAACP, a group with a ninety-year commitment to nonviolence: "The NAACP should have riot rehearsal. They should get a liquor store and practice robberies."  

When Carol Moseley-Braun (D-IL) was in the U.S. Senate, the first black woman ever elected to that body, Limbaugh would play the "Movin' On Up" theme song from TV's "Jeffersons" when he mentioned her. Limbaugh sometimes still uses mock dialect -- substituting "ax" for "ask"-- when discussing black leaders.  


http://www.fair.org/...augh-color.html

Nope.  No racism there.
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#73 Drew

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Posted 02 October 2003 - 03:05 PM

Ah, so this is a referendum on Limbaugh himself, not on the comment he made last weekend. Thanks for clearing that up.
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#74 MuseZack

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Posted 02 October 2003 - 03:06 PM

Drew, on Oct 2 2003, 08:05 PM, said:

Ah, so this is a referendum on Limbaugh himself, not on the comment he made last weekend. Thanks for clearing that up.
Not at all.  But a comment was made that Rush "is not, and has never been" a racist.  I was providing a source that claimed otherwise.
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#75 HubcapDave

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Posted 02 October 2003 - 04:03 PM

Mmmm. Perhaps I should have modified my statement with "To my knowledge".

Out of all those references, the "Bone in the nose" comment is the most egregious, though I would like to have seen in being used in context.

I hate to say it, but he does have a point about Jackson. But I don't think that statement is inherently racist.

On the rest of this, I would really like to see it as it was used in context before I'd pass judgement. Certainly you could put these remarks in the realm of "bad taste".

But in the five years I have beeen listening to the man, I would not consider him to hold a racist, or white supremacist, viewpoint.

#76 Drew

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Posted 02 October 2003 - 04:11 PM

HubcapDave, on Oct 2 2003, 04:03 PM, said:

But in the five years I have beeen listening to the man, I would not consider him to hold a racist, or white supremacist, viewpoint.
I haven't listened to him for over ten years, (I've only caught a few shows since then) but even then I wouldn't say that he was racist. I found it amusing that one article I read on this referred to Limbaugh as a "shock jock." Uh . . . no. Unless one shocks very easily. There are talk radio personalities out there who make Limbaugh look center-left.

Edited by Drew, 02 October 2003 - 04:12 PM.

"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#77 HubcapDave

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Posted 02 October 2003 - 04:32 PM

^Yeah, try listening to Michael Savage, for instance. The man  has publically stated that he doesn't think Limbaugh is "conservative enough".

Savage is okay when he's being rational. But he flies off the handle far too easily and becomes almost moronic when he does.

#78 Delvo

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Posted 02 October 2003 - 05:10 PM

Wow. The mindless recitation of liberodrivel in here is so thick I could choke on it. Rush is the most lied-about and demonized person I can think of, and we have a handful of examples here too. If I got into the specific refutations that could be done with this heap of lies, I'd be writing for an hour at least, and the perpetrators would just say "AM NOT!" and fling out some more. That's why I created a personal rule years ago: "Never interrupt a Rush-bashing session with a reality check. Those who need it most will do any mental gymnastics necessary to block out reality anyway."

So... uh... yah! Rush Baaad! Booooo Rush!

Jeez, people...

BTW, did everybody suddenly forget that racial tension and how the athletes, coaches, press, and others involved all handle it has been one of the big side-issues pro sports for YEARS, and that EVERYBODY says his/her piece about it from time to time, and that specificly the press's apparent overrating of McNabb because they want to see a successful black quarterback (among other examples of both kinds) has already long been a topic of discussion, including many others saying exactly the same thing Rush said before? Oh, wait, I forgot, the point isn't what was said, but who said it; Rush is one of those people who doesn't get to talk about the same things everybody else has been for years...

#79 Bad Wolf

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Posted 02 October 2003 - 05:30 PM

Dammit Delvo it's just NOT the same unless you start one of these rants with "Gewd Gawd".  It just does NOT have the same oomph!!!

:p
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#80 Norville

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Posted 02 October 2003 - 10:09 PM

Quote

Savage is okay when he's being rational. But he flies off the handle far too easily and becomes almost moronic when he does.

Oh, yes. I've taken to listening to Savage whenever I have a chance (also read his book, and will read his next one), and there are times when he makes total sense to me, and times when I'd like to slap him fairly hard. ;) (There was a priceless bit of weirdness the other night, when a caller said "news", Savage misheard it as "Jews", and went into a rant against the caller. Okaaay... There was also a priceless bit of New York TIMES-bashing when he claimed that the NYT mentioned *nothing* about the suicide bombing in Israel that killed so many kids -- sorry, I had read the NYT that morning, and they stated that the attack was called "the children's attack" because so many kids died. Okaaay again...)

I've never listened to Rush, though. I've never liked what I've heard of him, but am not going to get into "mindless recitation of liberodrivel" (gewd gawd, Delvo ;) ), *because* I've never listened to him for myself... whereas I do listen to Michael Savage, and therefore have an informed opinion. ;)
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