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Crisis on Infinite Earths

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#1 Virgil Vox

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Posted 08 December 2019 - 05:00 PM

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THE KICKOFF TO THE EPIC TELEVISON CROSSOVER EVENT, CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS - The Monitor (guest star LaMonica Garrett) sends Harbinger (guest star Audrey Marie Anderson) to gather the worlds' greatest heroes - Supergirl (Melissa Benoist), The Flash (guest star Grant Gustin), Green Arrow (guest star Stephen Amell), Batwoman (guest star Ruby Rose), White Canary (guest star Caity Lotz), The Atom (guest star Brandon Routh) and Superman (guest star Tyler Hoechlin) - in preparation for the impending Crisis. With their worlds in imminent danger, the superheroes suit up for battle while J'onn (David Harewood) and Alex (Chyler Leigh) recruit Lena (Katie McGrath) to help them find a way to save the people of Earth-38.


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I am so pumped for this tonight. It should be suitably epic.



They are doing things differently this year. Episodes 1-3 will air Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday. We will then have to wait a little over a month for the cross-over to resume January 14.


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#2 RJDiogenes

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Posted 08 December 2019 - 05:27 PM

Ah, well, that should make it easier for me to watch.
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#3 Sci-Fi Girl

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Posted 08 December 2019 - 06:43 PM

Question:  I am caught up on Supergirl, Batwoman, The Flash, and Legends of Tomorrow, but I have not watched Arrow or Black Lightning at all this year (or last year), and I don't plan to.  Is there anything I absolutely need to know before watching Crisis?  Or will it make sense anyway?

SFG  ;)
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#4 Christopher

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Posted 08 December 2019 - 07:45 PM

View PostSci-Fi Girl, on 08 December 2019 - 06:43 PM, said:

Question:  I am caught up on Supergirl, Batwoman, The Flash, and Legends of Tomorrow, but I have not watched Arrow or Black Lightning at all this year (or last year), and I don't plan to.  Is there anything I absolutely need to know before watching Crisis?  Or will it make sense anyway?


Well, Arrow's whole season has been building up to Crisis, but the producers say the story of the crossover is sufficiently self-contained that they didn't need to put in any recaps. So presumably any exposition you need will be provided within the crossover itself. Which makes sense, because you've got a lot of characters meeting for the first time or at least for the first time since all this started, so there's going to be a lot of room for characters to explain things to each other and thus to the audience.

As for Black Lightning, that show hasn't had any connection to the Arrowverse continuity before now, so probably there won't be any references to his show's ongoing storylines.
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#5 Virgil Vox

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Posted 08 December 2019 - 10:02 PM

That was really good. Not without its problems but a great way to start this cross-over event.

I have to say I was excited and then disappointed when it seemed like the cross-over would be set primarily on Earth-38 because all of the other cross-overs have been so Earth-1 centric and then Earth-38 went bye bye. I get it. The rest of the shows are set on Earth-1 so it makes sense to have the focus there but still. It would make for a nice change of pace.

I have to say the Monitor's plan sucked. They made a big deal about how Earth-38 was the linchpin and they had to stop the Anti-Monitor there and they gathered a few heroes and that was about it. Not exactly the best effort.

Plus there was the Monitor telling Oliver that he wouldn't tell him anything about the Anti-Monitor because then the heroes wouldn't plan for every eventuality. That seems like extremely dumb advice. Pretty sure telling them how to battle the Anti-Monitor and his Shadow Minions would probably be a good thing.

There were some great cameos at the beginning. I know we probably won't see any of them again but I hope a few make additional appearances. I wouldn't mind seeing the Titans again. Same with the Ray. I was hoping we would see him again at some point. Still, I loved the cameos and the nods to previous DC movies and TV shows.

Seeing Argo destroyed was a gut punch, as was watching Clark and Lois having to send Jonathan away in an escape pod.

Speaking of, what is with Kryptonians only having one escape pod for their society? You'd think by now they would have wised up.

Oliver's death surprised me. I didn't think they would kill him off in the first episode. Not that I think he is permanently dead, at least not yet. There are still two Arrow episodes left after the Crisis.

His death scene was sad and well done. My only complaint is that William really should have been there too. Same with Felicity. It is strange to have a cross-over and not have Felicity in it.

Oliver passing the torch to Mia was a nice moment even if she didn't want it because she knew it meant Oliver's death was coming soon.

There are going to be some fans really upset that Clark passed out before Kara when they were powering up the Tower. Any time she outshines Superman a segment of the fandom gets really PO'd.

I liked Batwoman and the Atom working together. Their very different personalities make for a fun combination.

I felt that the scene between 2046 Oliver and Sara really wasn't needed. It didn't really add anything to the episode and since we aren't invested in this version of Oliver their parting didn't really have any emotional resonance.

Lena is still extremely upset at, well, basically everyone. Her conversation with Alex was brutal. She did still work to save everyone on the planet so she hasn't become a total villain yet.

I'm surprised that no one really mentioned Mars. Megan and Malefic are there as is the entire White Martian race. I'm guessing they didn't escape the wave.

I wish the A-M's minions hadn't been CGI. They looked okay but not great and it hampered the battle scene.

Nash Wells has become Pariah. I have to admit I had forgotten about the Pariah character until he showed up on screen. It has been about a decade or so since I read the original Crisis graphic novel.

Okay, Ray inspiring a Janis Joplin song is the crazy kind of time travel shenanigans I love about Legends. Can I also just say how nice it is to see the Legends (or at least two of them) again? It has been a long wait since the end of the last season.

I am curious as to where the cross-over goes from here. We were told that Earth-1 would be the last universe the wave hits so presumably that is where our heroes make their final stand. Does that mean they let all the other universes die?

It will also be interesting to see if this Crisis ends the same way the original did with the destruction of the multiverse and a single universe and reality. I hope not. I like the multiverse and I think trying to cram all the heroes and histories onto one Earth would be hard.
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#6 Sci-Fi Girl

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 01:01 AM

View PostChristopher, on 08 December 2019 - 07:45 PM, said:

View PostSci-Fi Girl, on 08 December 2019 - 06:43 PM, said:

Question:  I am caught up on Supergirl, Batwoman, The Flash, and Legends of Tomorrow, but I have not watched Arrow or Black Lightning at all this year (or last year), and I don't plan to.  Is there anything I absolutely need to know before watching Crisis?  Or will it make sense anyway?


Well, Arrow's whole season has been building up to Crisis, but the producers say the story of the crossover is sufficiently self-contained that they didn't need to put in any recaps. So presumably any exposition you need will be provided within the crossover itself. Which makes sense, because you've got a lot of characters meeting for the first time or at least for the first time since all this started, so there's going to be a lot of room for characters to explain things to each other and thus to the audience.

As for Black Lightning, that show hasn't had any connection to the Arrowverse continuity before now, so probably there won't be any references to his show's ongoing storylines.

That makes sense, thanks! :)

SFG

Edited by Sci-Fi Girl, 09 December 2019 - 01:02 AM.

"A song is like a picture of a bird in flight; the bird was moving before the picture was taken, and no doubt continued after."   - Pete Seeger

Pete Seeger's life was a picture of an idea in flight, and the idea will continue long after.  As long as there are people with goodness and courage in their hearts, the idea will continue forever.

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A Celebration of Song Lyrics, New and Old: Just the poetry  (to include those with different musical tastes than me)

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#7 Christopher

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 07:10 AM

Okay, so that went largely as expected from the trailers and descriptions, but with some surprises. Mainly, I didn't expect Oliver to die so soon, though I doubt that will stick, since they wouldn't ditch their star player so early in the huge crossover. Also, we barely got any Barry/Oliver interplay, and I think they said in interviews that there will be more of that.

So Earth-89 and Earth-66 are obvious, and Earth-16 is no doubt called that because it's an alternate future introduced in a 2016 Legends episode. But why is the Titans world called Earth-9?

So far, this has one of the same problems the original CoIE had, which is that it's just too cluttered. You'd think Nash showing up and telling the sad tale of how he released the Anti-Monitor and is now a Pariah would warrant a big scene, but it's just a random throwaway moment in the middle of Oliver's death scene. Why is he even there? It would've been better to leave his intro for the opening of Part 2. And the bit about Ollie finally learning about the discrepancy in the Monitor's predictions -- telling Oliver he had to die to save Barry and Kara while telling Barry he still had to die -- was far too cursory for something that's been building up for a year. Although on the other hand, it's entirely in character for Oliver to process it so quickly and react so decisively.

It's also quite hard to believe that Oliver staying for a few extra minutes and shooting a few arrows and fighting an army of demons with his bare fists would save a billion people. And why did the Monitor just whisk the others away without asking but not do the same with Ollie?

The antimatter wave makes no sense. Somehow Argo City is the only inhabited world(let) in its path even though it's spreading through the whole universe and destroying everything? And it bounced off the "edge" of the universe, which is infinite in size and has no edge? And even though it's fast enough to reach the edge of the whole universe and back in 5 hours, it's slow enough that you can see it coming and have time to prepare?

Anyway, nice to get (implicit) confirmation that Burt Ward was playing Dick Grayson of "Earth-66" after all. "Holy crimson skies of death!" Do you suppose the dog was Ace the Bat-Hound?



View PostVirgil Vox, on 08 December 2019 - 10:02 PM, said:

There were some great cameos at the beginning. I know we probably won't see any of them again but I hope a few make additional appearances. I wouldn't mind seeing the Titans again. Same with the Ray. I was hoping we would see him again at some point. Still, I loved the cameos and the nods to previous DC movies and TV shows.

The cameos were about as I expected, just brief glimpses disconnected from the rest. They say there are more unannounced cameos to come, and I'm sure it'll be more of the same. The lack of interaction means they can easily slip in as many as they want. Heck, I'm not even sure the bit from Titans was original footage -- it could've just been clips modified with a red sky.

(By the way, I think it'd be hilarious if every other CW show this week had a red sky randomly appear at some point.)



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Seeing Argo destroyed was a gut punch, as was watching Clark and Lois having to send Jonathan away in an escape pod.

Yeah, that was a nice touch, having Clark and Lois repeat history (and Alura with them).


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There are going to be some fans really upset that Clark passed out before Kara when they were powering up the Tower. Any time she outshines Superman a segment of the fandom gets really PO'd.

Forget them. It makes perfect sense in context. Clark's been living on Argo without powers for more than a year, and only returned to Earth and its yellow sunlight hours before. So naturally he's not as fully charged up as Kara is.



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I felt that the scene between 2046 Oliver and Sara really wasn't needed. It didn't really add anything to the episode and since we aren't invested in this version of Oliver their parting didn't really have any emotional resonance.

I don't know -- I thought that having Sara meet a version of Oliver who last saw her on the Queen's Gambit was a nice opportunity for her to reflect on her journey over the course of the series. Sara's the only lead/hero character other than Oliver who's been part of the franchise since the very first episode (even though she was played by a different actress there), so it was a nice touch to let her look back on her history with Oliver. That scene was about our emotional resonance with Sara, not Oliver.



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I wish the A-M's minions hadn't been CGI. They looked okay but not great and it hampered the battle scene.

I hate scenes where the heroes are pitted against a horde of faceless soldiers that die with one blow. It's just filler, basically, and there's no credibility to the threat if they go poof with a single hit. It's got about as much resonance as a fight with the footsoldiers in a Power Rangers episode. I also don't like it when heroes who usually have a code against killing, like the Supers and the Flash, just casually put it aside when fighting a horde of monsters.



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It will also be interesting to see if this Crisis ends the same way the original did with the destruction of the multiverse and a single universe and reality. I hope not. I like the multiverse and I think trying to cram all the heroes and histories onto one Earth would be hard.

I don't believe for a second that they'll do that. After all, DC tried that and decided it had been a mistake; it created more complications than it solved, and they ended up bringing back the multiverse long ago. So there's no reason for the Arrowverse to repeat that mistake.

Also, there's no way the destruction of Earth-38 as shown here will stick. That would mean throwing out all of Supergirl's multimillion-dollar standing sets, not to mention dropping the whole Leviathan plot, the Martian storyline, the Legion, etc. Also, supposedly all the worlds we glimpsed in cameos at the start have been destroyed, including Titans' Earth-9, and there's no way they'd eradicate the universe of a current series on another network. Of course, this is all just fiction, so the makers of Titans wouldn't be prevented from making their show just because a different work of fiction claimed their universe was destroyed. But it would be pretty hubristic for this show to claim a different show's world had been permanently erased while it's still ongoing. So it stands to reason that something will happen to restore at least some of the eradicated universes -- and in a way that will allow the non-CW ones to remain in independent continuities. Thus, there's no reason the same couldn't happen with Earth-38.

Edited by Christopher, 09 December 2019 - 07:23 AM.

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#8 G-man

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 09:57 AM

Ye-eah, Ollie's effectiveness ... in theory, he was keeping the swarm occupied, thus preventing them from shutting down the tower even as Earth-38 is pulling its Dunkirk.

The problem is, as depicted, this was in no way believable.

Basically, when one must secure a skyscraper against foes who can fly, the martial artist would be ineffective unless there were bottlenecks they could control, and they'd be the final obstacle standing before the macguffin that the swarm must reach.

In fairness, it should have been the Supers, J'onn J'onnz, and the Flash acting as rearguard, while Ollie (with Brainy, et al.) tries to run the show from DEO-HQ.  But that would basically leave the martial artists and brawlers on the sidelines managing the evacuation ... and would relegate Ollie to being a bystander (even if he trying to coordinate the defense) rather than a hero in the middle of the action.

/s/

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#9 zarkon

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 02:50 PM

I totally agree with your assessment  ;-)

However, we did get to see a pivotal moment never seen before regarding Ollie  ;-)

He actually ran out of arrows   :insanosmile:

#10 Lambsilencer

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 03:00 PM

That was a really great start.

This crossover, to me, should be some kind of turning point, not only in all those shows, but to episodic television in general.

I know it probably won't happen, but it would be pretty powerful if this was indeed the last appearance of Stephen Amell as Oliver Queen - and him dying not even on his own show, no less. But "Crisis on Infinite Earth" is such a huge event that you can throw out all the rules, and I mean ALL the rules.
I would even go that far as to completely mix up the casts at the end. Caitlin now on "Supergirl", Diggle on "The Flash", Sara in Gotham City with Batwoman, and so on, and so on. And the most important part - stick with it, never go back. This would truly be something that would go down in TV history, for sure. And it would do justice to the big comic event that was, and now again, is "Crisis on Infinite Earths".

But, we'll see if they have the guts to go there.

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#11 Virgil Vox

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Posted 10 December 2019 - 07:29 PM

This was a little more meandering of an episode with the characters off on their own little side-quests.

These two episodes have really revealed just how crappy the Monitor's plan has been all along. He has tested multiple heroes but that doesn't seem to have meant anything. His big plan last episode was just to have a few heroes protect a tower against a huge army of shadow demons and not even tell them how best to go about it. Now he pulls Plan B out of his butt.

The two major cameos were Tom Welling and Kevin Conroy and both went in surprising directions.

I will admit to being majorly disappointed that Smallville Clark gave up his powers. The whole series was about him embracing his powers and his destiny so this felt like a random curve ball that wasn't needed, especially since we have two Supermen in the same episode that had kids while retaining their powers.

That aside, the scene was excellent. I loved seeing Welling back as Clark and Durance back as Lois. It felt like old times. Clark punching Lex was absolutely priceless. Definitely one of the highlights of the episode.

I am glad to see Smallville get honored since it did pave the way for all these other superhero shows. It lasted 10 seasons and introduced a huge number of DC heroes and villains.

Kevin Conroy's Batman was way darker than I was expecting. He murdered his villains and Superman. He was going to murder Kara. I have to say it was refreshing to see an evil Batman since it is Superman who is usually portrayed as going evil with Batman being the one who has to stop him.

The scenes between Bruce and Kate were great. Kate is seeing a Bruce that has become a villain and questioning whether that is her fate. She did the right thing by fighting him and saving Kara but she did steal the Kryptonite at the end so maybe she is questioning some things.

Routh as Superman was amazing. I thought he was a great Clark/Superman in Superman Returns so it is fantastic to see him portray that character here. His suit was well designed and he played the older, grief stricken Superman perfectly.

The fight between the two Supermen was well done, though some of the CGI was pretty dodgy.

Lex was predictably Lex. Of course he would steal the Book of Destiny and try and kill every Superman ever. What makes it worse is that this was apparently part of the Monitor's extremely crappy plan. I am in agreement with Kara that the Monitor sucks and isn't really a good guy.

The idea of seven Paragons is neat. It reminds me of Infinite Crisis and Alexander Luthor's collection of various heroes and villains to power his Tower.

It makes sense that Supergirl, Batwoman, and Sara would be Paragons. I love that Routh Superman is one as well, though it is sad that Hoechlin Superman isn't. I am curious to see who the other Paragons are.

Mia and Barry using a Lazarus Pit to revive Oliver was no surprise. It was also no surprise that it didn't work, or at least  not all the way. His body is back but not his soul. Constantine ran out of magic mojo.

I love the new Waverider with Leonard Snart being the voice of the computer.

The Anti-Monitor looks good, at least the few seconds we saw of him. I guess he has been able to corrupt Harbinger and she is working for him now.
"You will give the people an ideal to strive towards. They will race behind you. They will stumble. They will fall. But in time, they will join you in the sun. In time, you will help them accomplish wonders."
--Jor-El


It's a recession when your neighbor loses his job: it's a depression when you lose yours.
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#12 Christopher

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Posted 10 December 2019 - 08:34 PM

I liked Part 2 of Crisis a lot better than Part 1. The focus on recruiting new heroes led to some effective subplots. The meeting of the Supermen was well-done, and their battle was suitably epic. Routh was good in the role, getting to play a wider range of emotions and moods in these few minutes than in the entirety of Superman Returns (where every actor seemed to be instructed to underplay everything as much as possible).

And the sequence with Conroy's Batman was terrific. It was so perfect that his introduction was through that iconic voice first. I've seen a couple of people express surprise that they went so dark with his version, but I thought that was great, because it let Conroy cut loose as an actor, use that Shakespearean training he always brought to the role. His DCAU Batman was one of the more dark and tragic portrayals of the character in mass media, and a lot of his most memorable villains were sympathetic figures who crossed a line and never came back. So it's appropriate that his version of Batman here was one whose dark side was amplified to the extreme.

I'm not surprised that Smallville's Clark gave up his powers. It's an amusing meta-commentary on Welling's resistance to donning the cape, but it also works as a valid tribute, because his version was always more about being farmboy Clark Kent, so this was true to what his show was, rather than what we might've wished it could become. And it tied into the overall theme of Superman maturing and having a family. Earth-38 Superman got to have a family with Lois by going to Argo where he temporarily gave up his powers. Smallville Superman didn't have that option, so he chose to give up his powers more permanently in order to have "the girls" with his Lois. (And why not? His world had a ton of other superheroes predating him, so it's not like he was the only guy who could do the job.) And even though Earth-96 Superman lost his Lois and his whole Daily Planet family to the Joker's attack, he still has his son to be proud of.

As for the rest, I'm not surprised that they're already talking about ways to undo the losses of Part 1. They've brought Oliver's body back to life, if not yet his soul, and Kara is talking about using the Book of Destiny to restore Earth-38 and the others. I think it's a safe bet at this point that at least some of the worlds will be restored, though probably with some changes.


Meanwhile, Black Lightning's episode was a more direct Crisis tie-in than I thought. It was largely a "red sky crossover" as I expected it to be, peripherally affected by the larger Crisis without the characters being directly in the loop, but it ended up tying in much more directly. And of course the eradication of BL's Earth at the end proves that the destruction is reversible, since naturally that show isn't ending.

I just wish they hadn't labeled the Earths of the alternate Jennifers as "Earth 1" and "Earth 2," because they clearly weren't the same as the mainstream Earth-1 and Earth-2. I mean, obviously in the latter case, since Earth-2 was destroyed weeks ago. But the "Gen: Earth 1" portrayed here can't be the Earth-1 we know. It's an Earth where Black Lightning existed as a meta decades before the first metas were publicly known on Earth-1, and it's an Earth where there's an oppressive "High Council" apparently running things in the US.


View PostVirgil Vox, on 10 December 2019 - 07:29 PM, said:

I will admit to being majorly disappointed that Smallville Clark gave up his powers. The whole series was about him embracing his powers and his destiny so this felt like a random curve ball that wasn't needed, especially since we have two Supermen in the same episode that had kids while retaining their powers.

Actually neither of them did. The Earth-96 Superman is basically the Superman Returns version, whose backstory includes a slightly tweaked, timeshifted version of the events of the first two Christopher Reeve films, presumably including the bit where Clark gave up his powers in order to be intimate with Lois. And Earth-38's Clark and Lois relocated to Argo City to start a family, because Lois could never survive gestating a superstrong Kryptonian fetus under Earth's yellow sun. So it's consistent across all three of them that Clark having a family with Lois requires giving up his powers. It's just that Earth-167 (Smallville) Clark wasn't able to find a less permanent way of doing it.

And this Clark giving up his powers seems perfectly in character to me, as I said. The whole series was not about him embracing his powers; rather, the first seven seasons were about him resisting his superheroic destiny, and it wasn't until new showrunners took over in season 8 that they finally broke the character free of his stagnation and started moving him toward becoming a willing hero. So that's 7 years of reluctance against 3 years of acceptance. And sometimes when people have revelations and make changes in their lives... it doesn't stick. They fall back into old habits, old patterns.


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I loved seeing Welling back as Clark and Durance back as Lois. It felt like old times.

Yeah, it felt like old times, in the sense that Tom Welling still can't act worth a damn. He didn't show a single emotion the whole time. He seemed barely interested in any of what was going on. Thank goodness we had Routh's full gamut of Super-emotion to balance it out.


Quote

The fight between the two Supermen was well done, though some of the CGI was pretty dodgy.

It always is, but that's okay. After all, these shows are based on stories told in cartoon form. Photorealism is not required. Heck, Kirk Alyn's Superman in the 1948 & 1950 serials turned into a literal cartoon when he flew, so this is in the same tradition.


Quote

I am in agreement with Kara that the Monitor sucks and isn't really a good guy.

To be fair, he's trying to stop an enemy who's trying to destroy everything, who has all the same powers he does, and who's apparently his brother. I've always had the sense that the Monitor is acting out of desperation. He doesn't have control of the situation; the Anti-Monitor does, and the Monitor is just struggling to mount a holding action against it.

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It makes sense that Supergirl, Batwoman, and Sara would be Paragons. I love that Routh Superman is one as well, though it is sad that Hoechlin Superman isn't.

It'd be a little redundant for both Earth-38 Supers to be Paragons. And the Earth-96 Superman is the senior version. Plus there was that whole "more tragedy than one person can bear" qualification.

Edited by Christopher, 10 December 2019 - 08:35 PM.

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#13 Christopher

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Posted 11 December 2019 - 08:25 AM

Part 3: Wow. That was intense. It had some of the same problems as Part 1, being too rushed and cluttered in plot terms, with Pariah still being really underdeveloped. But it did have a lot of excellent character moments that were very satisfying and potent.

The fate of Flash-90... wow. It was entirely predictable that Barry-90 would sacrifice himself for his sort-of son, but it was still a deeply powerful moment, especially with the Elfman theme music supporting it. Flash-90 really was underused in Elseworlds, and I'm glad he got a bigger payoff here. Of course, the moment would be a lot less potent for viewers who aren't familiar with the 1990 show. As far as viewers of the current Flash are concerned, it would've probably been more engaging if the sacrifice had been Jay Garrick, an alternate Flash they've been invested in for years. Having this other lookalike guy substituted for him must be weird for those viewers. But for me, it was such an overpowering moment that I needed to step away from the computer for a few minutes to recover. Of all the superheroes seen here outside of cameos, Flash-90 is the oldest veteran, and elements of his show have been extensively homaged and revived in the modern Flash over the years. So in a way, he's the forerunner (pun intended) of this whole superhero multiverse, and seeing him fulfill the iconic role of Barry Allen in Crisis, make the ultimate sacrifice to save those who've come after him, was deeply appropriate and powerful.

(Incidentally, I'm a bit disappointed to learn that Flash-90 married Tina McGee instead of Megan Lockhart.)

As for Black Lightning, we still don't know for sure what number his Earth is, although it was implied that it was Earth-73, because that's the world we saw destroyed on the Waverider's screen in the scene just before BL showed up. It's unclear why they'd use that number for a character introduced in 1977, though. Anyway, he was kind of swamped by the plot demands in his first big scene, but I'm glad they gave him and Barry that bonding moment built around their similar histories.

Nice interaction between Kara and Kate too, recasting the classic dynamic of Batman being prepared to take down Superman with kryptonite, but working through it with trust and understanding and friendship. It did a good job of solidifying the relationship that the producers are setting up as the replacement for the Oliver-Barry dynamic. If they do merge Earth-1 and Earth-38, I could live with that as long as it brings more Supergirl/Batwoman interaction, although as I've been saying, the shows never really connect anymore outside the crossover events, so it wouldn't make much difference. (I mean, the Flash gang only just now learned that Earth-2 was destroyed, and barely had time to react to it.)

The Lucifer cameo was a terrific surprise. I've thought for years that it would be cool to see Constantine cross into Lucifer's universe and get some interaction between the two, and even though it was brief, it was fun to see. Of course, it raises some interesting theological questions, since the supernatural rules pertaining to angels are quite different between Constantine and Lucifer. In the former, angels were invisible/inaudible to mortals and strictly forbidden to intervene in human affairs, and fallen angels had black wings; also Lucifer was explicitly evil and sought to corrupt souls. In Lucifer, angels can interact freely with humans, their wing color is unrelated to their status, and Lucifer resents being blamed for corrupting the souls that his job is to punish for their self-corruption. Also, the version of Hell seen in Legends of Tomorrow last season is quite different from the one seen in Lucifer, so there are different Hells in different universes. Now, if the rules for divine phenomena are different in different universes, does that mean that God is not overarching, that each one has its own distinct version of God? Does it mean there are universes without God, or at least without the Judeo-Christian one? There are a lot of implications here that many religious people would probably be uncomfortable with if they thought them through. Though personally I'm glad to treat Lucifer's rather Biblically literal cosmology as something specific to its own reality and not binding on the Arrowverse or other continuities.

So Lucifer leads us to Purgatory, and thus to Oliver... and Oliver Queen becomes the Spectre. Which makes perfect sense in a way -- it explains the green hood. It's also an interesting way for Oliver to "die" while still leaving room for Amell to come back from time to time. Although I'm not sure I'm happy with the idea. I loathe the character of the Spectre. I hate the way he brutally, sadistically murders criminals under the pretense of "divine justice" -- it's a disgusting morality and cosmology. Oliver spent eight years growing out of his original mission of vengeance and murder to embrace a more heroic, positive calling, and becoming the Spectre -- using the Spectre's methods -- would be a massive backslide. Although maybe it doesn't have to be that way; maybe his experiences as the Green Arrow will make him a nobler, less sadistic Spectre. I hope so.

So the seven symbols did represent the Paragons after all. We still have to figure out which one is which, though we know which one was Superman (the one Lex defaced), and the Flash symbol is pretty obvious. Anyway, now we have an explanation for those trailer shots showing Lex alongside the other heroes. They also showed Ryan Choi with a beard, so I assume a significant amount of time is going to pass for the gang at the Vanishing Point (where no time passes, but never mind) before the last two episodes.

Gee, what a coincidence that across the entire multiverse, four of the Paragons came from Earth-1 (Flash, White Canary, Batwoman, Ryan Choi) and two from Earth-38 (Supergirl and Martian Manhunter). And with Lex replacing Superman-96, that leaves all seven of them from those two Earths.

I think one thing that surprises me is that the cliffhanger here depends on the Vanishing Point, a leftover concept from the much-reviled first season of Legends of Tomorrow (though also used in season 2 as the Legion of Doom's HQ). It's been years since it was mentioned, and it's unexpected for an LoT concept to be so crucial when the crossover is so light on Legends (just Sara and Ray, plus alternate Rory and "Leonard"). But I guess it makes sense that a place "outside of time and space" is the only refuge when the entire multiverse has been destroyed. (By the way, the Arrowverse Wiki's Multiverse article is funny right now -- every single Earth in the list currently has "(destroyed by antimatter)" after it. Somebody went to a lot of trouble overnight to do that, even though it's obviously never going to stick.)

Incidentally, it occurs to me that Elseworlds set up Psycho-Pirate as a player in CoIE -- he was the one who gave the final speech that quoted the CoIE tagline -- but he's been totally absent here. Could they not get the actor back, or did they just decide to go in a different direction? I wonder if we'll ever find out what his connection to the event was. (In this continuity, not the comics.)


So let's see. Shows/movies referenced so far:

Batman '66
The Flash '90
Smallville
Birds of Prey
Titans
Lucifer
Black Lightning

Batman '89
Superman Returns
(and indirectly the "Donnerverse," sort of)

Still a lot left that might be referenced. We know a glimpse of Stargirl is upcoming. Best bets otherwise might be Lynda Carter Wonder Woman, Helen Slater Supergirl, Lois and Clark, Gotham, and maybe Krypton or the '88 Superboy. Some kind of reference to the Nolan films or the DCEU would be interesting to get.
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#14 G-man

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Posted 11 December 2019 - 09:46 AM

Speaking of Stargirl:



/s/

Gloriosus
the G-man Himself
Let me strive every moment of my life to make myself better and better, to the best of my ability, so that all may profit by it.
Let me think of the right and lend my assistance to all who may need it, with no regard for anything but justice.
Let me take what comes with a smile, without loss of courage.
Let me be considerate of my country, of my fellow citizens, and my associates in everything I say and do.
Let me do right to all, and wrong no man.
-- Doc Savage

Few people want to be moderated, most people see the need for everyone else to be moderated. -- Orpheus

#15 Christopher

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Posted 14 December 2019 - 01:19 PM

By the way, I checked, and it seems that aside from the season finale of Watchmen tomorrow, there are no live-action DC productions being released anywhere during the gap between Crisis Part 3 and Part 4. And Watchmen is apparently fictional within the Crisis multiverse, at least on Earth-666 (there's a Watchmen billboard next to Lucifer's club in the establishing shot). So in effect, the entire live-action DC multiverse actually has ceased to exist for the duration! Probably just a coincidence because of the holiday break, but it's a nice convergence that there's essentially nothing to break the illusion.

(Although in animation, there are some new episodes of Harley Quinn, Teen Titans Go!, and DC Super Hero Girls coming out during the gap.)
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#16 Niko

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Posted 16 December 2019 - 10:37 AM

Got caught up with this over the weekend.

My interest in the CW/DC shows has been waning, but I mostly liked this a lot!  The first episode was only "meh" for me because it leaned heavily on the Supergirl!earth and Oliver's situation - both of which I don't follow - but the other two episodes were great.

I particularly loved the team-up of Kate and Kara and that flip on the Bat-/Super- dynamic, as Christopher mentioned.  Ruby Rose's portrayal of Kate worked better for me here than it has so far all season on the core show.  Her dry quips bounced nicely against the more in-your-face humor from the other casts, and her acting in reaction to the encounter with Bruce and then struggling with what to do about the Kryptonite was more engaging to me than she's been.

Also agree that the Constantine/Lucifer combination was a highlight, and I liked the Iris interaction with Osric Chau's character and that consideration of "this may be the last time we see each other" sort of moment.

(Is Osric Chau's character someone from the comics, or introduced as a completely random human?)
- Whatsoever you do to the least of my people, that you do unto me.    (Matthew 25:40)

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#17 Christopher

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Posted 16 December 2019 - 10:46 AM

View PostNiko, on 16 December 2019 - 10:37 AM, said:

(Is Osric Chau's character someone from the comics, or introduced as a completely random human?)

Ryan Choi was Ray Palmer's successor as the Atom, created in 2006 by Gail Simone and Grant Morrison. This is the character's live-action debut, though an unused scene featuring a version of him was shot for the Justice League movie, and he had a recurring role in Batman: The Brave and the Bold (voiced by James Sie). And he's already been name-dropped in The Flash as the future creator of the Flash's costume ring (which holds his costume in compressed/miniaturized form).
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"The first man to raise a fist is the man who's run out of ideas." -- "H. G. Wells," Time After Time


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#18 G-man

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Posted 15 January 2020 - 12:47 PM

Well, that was a crossover event.

I confess, the Flash encountering the Flash, I spent the entire scene trying to figure out who that other Flash was.  I finally recalled, oh yeah, he was from Justice League.  Still, I enjoyed their interchange.

The Cosmology is still sketchy … with the  Multiverse tied together by the Speed Force (I think); and that Antimatter “consumes” Matter … I was thinking it’d be mutually assured destruction, with the Antimatter Wave diminishing as it annihilated the Material Universe, effectively leaving nothing.

I liked that part 5 gave us the new status quo, with the old Arrowverse compressed into the Prime Universe (probably to facilitate cross-overs/team-ups), as a new Multiverse manifested itself, allowing for whoever to do whatever they want without it necessarily contradicting anything in the Arrow-verse.

We had our traditional punch out with an anti-matter being, because we couldn’t otherwise attack him physically without causing things to go boom.  Yeah.  That was a thing.

I was tickled at Supergirl’s glee upon discovering that Batwoman was on the world, so I’m thinking there’s going to be more team-ups between the pair of them, especially in light of Kate Kane hanging out with the Danvers Sisters … albeit, this then leads me to wonder about the state of Gotham and the Kane family.

Then there was the whole Hall of Justice finally becoming a thing.

What can I say?  Despite my quibbles, I liked it.

/s/

Gloriosus
the G-man Himself
Let me strive every moment of my life to make myself better and better, to the best of my ability, so that all may profit by it.
Let me think of the right and lend my assistance to all who may need it, with no regard for anything but justice.
Let me take what comes with a smile, without loss of courage.
Let me be considerate of my country, of my fellow citizens, and my associates in everything I say and do.
Let me do right to all, and wrong no man.
-- Doc Savage

Few people want to be moderated, most people see the need for everyone else to be moderated. -- Orpheus

#19 Christopher

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Posted 15 January 2020 - 01:05 PM

Well, that was pretty epic. So they did merge the Earths, just not all the Earths, only the three CW Earths. I didn't want them to, didn't think they needed to when it's quicker to hop between realities with an extrapolator than it is to take your trash out to the curb. But now that they have merged the Earths, I just hope they do something with it. The way it's been for the past couple of years is that the shows don't connect to each other at all even when they are on the same Earth. So the only way merging the Earths makes sense is if they actually make use of the merging in routine episodes rather than just once a year in the crossovers.

And there are bound to be continuity glitches when writers overlook a likely consequence of the rewritten history. There's already been one: the President saying that Green Arrow was considered the first hero. In the merged history, Superman should be the first hero, since he was already an established hero when Kara's pod crashed in 2003. Of course that line was metatextual, acknowledging Oliver as the first Arrowverse hero, but it's problematical in the new continuity.

Still, it was neat to see the Justice League formally established, although they didn't use the name. Again, I hope they use it for more than just the December events. I could've done without the Gleek nod, but it was also a funny callback to the Grodd Easter egg in the Flash pilot. And it was a nice touch to cast Marv Wolfman as the fan who informed Flash and Supergirl about the merged world. Hey, it's appropriate, since he was the guy responsible for it! Posted Image

It's interesting that they kind of merged Mar Novu with Krona, the figure in DC history whose probe into the Dawn of Time created the Multiverse (and the Monitor and Anti-Monitor as a side effect). It makes it a bit more efficient.

I wonder if Lex just rewrote himself as a hero to cover up his evil schemes, or if he genuinely intends to try being a good guy for a while. He did say at the Dawn of Time that it was "interesting" to feel like a hero.

Anyway, I'm glad we got that final montage bookending the crossover and confirming that the rest of the Multiverse endures. I mean, it had to; The CW couldn't permanently destroy or merge any of the separate TV or movie universes. I'm just glad we got the confirmation, and got a few more worlds acknowledged. (Including the Green Lantern movie Greg Berlanti co-wrote and had originally been slated to direct, I believe, as well as all three DC Universe streaming series. And did we just get confirmation that the upcoming Stargirl series is set on Earth-2?) I'm disappointed we didn't get any nods to Lois & Clark or Superboy, or to Nolan Batman or Krypton. Or guest appearances by the Lynda Carter Wonder Woman and the Helen Slater Supergirl. But getting Ezra Miller's Flash was delightful. I was hoping they'd do that, and they did.

Of the changes they've made, I think my favorite is that they've restored Sara Diggle to life, that John and Lyla now have both their children. It corrects the injustice of Sara being erased in favor of John Jr.

Incidentally, when I rewatched Parts 1-3 last night, I realized that in Tom Ellis's cameo as Lucifer, he must have filmed his part separately from the other three actors, since there was never a shot including them together. You only saw shots of Lucifer by himself or over the others' shoulders, intercutting with shots of them reacting to him, and there's one shot of Lucifer over Constantine's shoulder where you can tell that it's a stand-in and not Matt Ryan. The first shot had Constantine knocking on the door, then moving out of frame when it opened to reveal Lucifer, but that's a simple split-screen effect.

And there were a lot of parts where, if you paid attention, you could tell they were writing and shooting around actors' availability, like all the bits where Barry wasn't there because he was "off doing recon."


View PostG-man, on 15 January 2020 - 12:47 PM, said:

The Cosmology is still sketchy … with the  Multiverse tied together by the Speed Force (I think); and that Antimatter “consumes” Matter … I was thinking it’d be mutually assured destruction, with the Antimatter Wave diminishing as it annihilated the Material Universe, effectively leaving nothing.

I would imagine that, since the Anti-Monitor engineered it as an attack on the matter Multiverse, he was somehow able to ensure the balance came out in antimatter's favor.


Quote

I was tickled at Supergirl’s glee upon discovering that Batwoman was on the world, so I’m thinking there’s going to be more team-ups between the pair of them, especially in light of Kate Kane hanging out with the Danvers Sisters … albeit, this then leads me to wonder about the state of Gotham and the Kane family.

Yeah, if this leads to more Supergirl/Batwoman team-ups, that would justify the whole thing. Though like I said, it was already simple to arrange team-ups with an extrapolator hop, so they'd better actually do something with the merger rather than just have the shows go back to being isolated from each other outside of the crossover events. (The promo for next week's Flash shows Cisco wearing a Superman t-shirt. I hope the consequences run deeper than that.)
"You don't use science to show that you're right, you use science to become right." -- xkcd

"The first man to raise a fist is the man who's run out of ideas." -- "H. G. Wells," Time After Time


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#20 G-man

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Posted 15 January 2020 - 02:22 PM

So, given the Gleep easter-egg, do you think a proposed name for the group will be "Super Friends"? :think: ;)

/s/

Gloriosus
the G-man Himself

Edited by G-man, 15 January 2020 - 02:24 PM.

Let me strive every moment of my life to make myself better and better, to the best of my ability, so that all may profit by it.
Let me think of the right and lend my assistance to all who may need it, with no regard for anything but justice.
Let me take what comes with a smile, without loss of courage.
Let me be considerate of my country, of my fellow citizens, and my associates in everything I say and do.
Let me do right to all, and wrong no man.
-- Doc Savage

Few people want to be moderated, most people see the need for everyone else to be moderated. -- Orpheus



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