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[OA] Overthinkers Anonymous notes on ST: Picard S01E01

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#1 Orpheus

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Posted 05 February 2020 - 12:36 AM

Does anyone remember the Overthinkers Anonymous faction from the early Andromeda days?

As a recovering overthinker, I have to admit that few shows take their own details seriously enough to justify US taking them seriously. Further, Star Trek is not generally known for its "mysteries to solve" outside of a few comparatively short arcs.

However, ST:Picard does seem to be presenting a mystery -- or at least until it dissolves entirely into an "action packed commando mission".

A number of details that have been nagging at me. I think some will have meaning, while others are probably just oversights.

I'm posting this as a separate thread because it's not going to be everyone's cup of tea.

ReWatch notes -- ST: Picard S01E02 "Remembrance"

[01:18] DREAM: The opening dialogue about tells, bluffs and meta-strategies may be a set-up for the series--a cute "writer's touch". I wish I could believe it was more. But I am making a note: five Queens

[04:08] Dahj's apartment: Dahj's boyfriend is Xahean, a race discussed in ST:Discovery (Short Treks #1 "The Runaway"; tangentially revisited in S02E13 "Such Sweet Sorrow") with "famous instincts" -- a trait not particularly seen in Xaheans before--or even in this episode: frankly he didn't strike me as having any better than "good boyfriend" insight into Dahj, and he certainly didn't sense the attack. Maybe this was a throwaway, but I find it an oddly constructed one.

[05:03] When Dahj's boyfriend rises to get more wine (or maybe a fastfood frozen beverage, based on the replicator image), the camera cuts to the view from the dinner table, with flowers withdrawing their their fused stamens as the petals fold around them, immediately before the attack. This was a deliberately constructed special effect, not a throwaway. How could a plant have such instincts? If it *is* a plant, and not, say, a Romulan monitoring device that signaled for the attack. Or a "friendly" device that is sensing that someone has locked a beam-in, and trying to hide/shield its mechanism.

I'm no botanist, but the flowers seem consistent with orchids (e.g. three petals surrounded by three petal-colored [vs. green] sepals). They may even be the "Orchidaceae Dahj oncidium" [sic] that Dahj mentions later.

[05:28] Tactical team: "We were afraid she'd activated. Since she hadn't, let's just slap her around a while vs. immediately taking her back for questioning."

"Where are the rest of you? Where are you from?" Doesn't sound like they're just looking for a twin.

[13:43] 10,000 warp-capable ferries. 900,000,000 Romulan citizens -- seem like numbers worth remembering.

[19:36] "That's an unusual necklace." It's one of the simplest, most boring, designs imaginable. They should have tried harder.

[26:50] Dahj's mom knows what's going on. Indeed, she seems to have an active plan. Is her dad involved? Did he send her the orchid recently or has she always had it? Is this maybe a Terminator 2 'foster parents' scenario or a holo-simulation? I did notice a video shudder when Dahj confronted her.

[30:36] Orchidaceae Dahj oncidium, is of course a misnomer. The proper species name would be Oncidium dahj. I find this amusing because the real orchid genus Oncidium interbreeds readily with a number of other genera, collectively known by botanists as "The Oncidium Association" -- which sounds like a secret Cardassian group buried inside the Obsidian Order.

[34:05] Okay, there's a huge unexplained explosion on a StarFleet roof. They find a famous admiral unconscious. He wakes up at home in France. Because of course that's what Star Fleet would do. Even if we assume he woke up earlier, was examined and questioned, but simply didn't recall that [plausible, after a head trauma], this is still a nonsensical cherry on top of the whole ludicrous rooftop attack. No part of that made sense. I feel obligated to note that IF she did indeed have an auto-cloaking device, she may still be alive. The explosion of the overloaded disruptor blocked our view if her in the last second.

[39:09] Dr. Jurati, Daystrom Institute, on seeing the necklace (acts like she's been punched in the gut "Where did you get that?"

Where indeed? Dahj never gave it to him. Presumably she was wearing it in the explosion. Even if it were left behind, how did Picard get it? Isn't it evidence in the explosion investigation?


[40:39] OF COURSE, there's a nebula of two overlapping rings near the Borg Artifact. Why not? No, the necklace has nothing to do with that. Move along.

[41:15] Dr. Soji Asha knows she has a twin. Dahj gave no indication that she did. I don't believe we've actually been told Dahj's last name, and IMDB cagily doesn't list one either. Who says there is only one pair of Data-daughter twins out there? It would certainly give meaning to the questions Dahj's attackers asked in her apartment.


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#2 Sci-Fi Girl

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Posted 05 February 2020 - 03:46 AM

^ Wow, lots to think about here, and I will read more closely when I am more awake.  But at first glance:

View PostOrpheus, on 05 February 2020 - 12:36 AM, said:

[39:09] Dr. Jurati, Daystrom Institute, on seeing the necklace (acts like she's been punched in the gut "Where did you get that?"

Where indeed? Dahj never gave it to him. Presumably she was wearing it in the explosion. Even if it were left behind, how did Picard get it? Isn't it evidence in the explosion investigation?

I thought she left it behind when she first showed it to him at tea.  What I think I remember: He asked to see it, she took it off and handed it to him, he looked at it, then put it on the table.  When she left the table to be shown to a bedroom, he looked down and it was still on the table.  And of course she ran away before morning.

Which in itself is super weird, that she would tell the story of this sentimental family item, and then just leave it behind.

Because plot???

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Edited by Sci-Fi Girl, 05 February 2020 - 04:05 AM.

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#3 sierraleone

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Posted 05 February 2020 - 04:54 PM

View PostOrpheus, on 05 February 2020 - 12:36 AM, said:

ReWatch notes -- ST: Picard S01E02 "Remembrance"

[01:18] DREAM: The opening dialogue about tells, bluffs and meta-strategies may be a set-up for the series--a cute "writer's touch". I wish I could believe it was more. But I am making a note: five Queens

Wasn't it actually five Queens *of hearts*? Not just five Queens, but identical suits.

Edited by sierraleone, 05 February 2020 - 04:54 PM.

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#4 Orpheus

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Posted 05 February 2020 - 04:57 PM

Good eye!

I remember Picard handing it back to Dahj (who took it with both hands), but she did indeed leave it on the table when she left--the MIDDLE of the table, not even near her tea cup.

Odd.

She also doesn't appear to be wearing it when she calls "mom", etc.

#5 Orpheus

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Posted 05 February 2020 - 05:07 PM

View Postsierraleone, on 05 February 2020 - 04:54 PM, said:

Wasn't it actually five Queens *of hearts*? Not just five Queens, but identical suits.

Yes. I debated saying that. 5x QH is more blatant clue than 5x Q, but I have an inkling of a theory that could involve 5 women (vs 2), and couldn't compellingly factor "hearts" into it.

Admittedly, the writers might have assigned meaning to the Hearts suit. This show has a great deal of sentimentality woven into it. Admiral Picard is very sentimental.

#6 RJDiogenes

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Posted 05 February 2020 - 07:31 PM

View PostOrpheus, on 05 February 2020 - 12:36 AM, said:

As a recovering overthinker  
Oh, you liar.  :lol:

Quote

However, ST:Picard does seem to be presenting a mystery -- or at least until it dissolves entirely into an "action packed commando mission".  
It kinda did that in episode one. But hopefully that was just a trick to keep the 21st century audience... engaged.

Quote

The opening dialogue about tells, bluffs and meta-strategies may be a set-up for the series--a cute "writer's touch". I wish I could believe it was more. But I am making a note: five Queens  
We must wonder how the dreams are getting into Picard's head, since they obviously have meaning. There's only one way that I can think of.  As of First Contact, he still had some connection with the Borg.

Quote

the camera cuts to the view from the dinner table, with flowers withdrawing their their fused stamens as the petals fold around them,
Forgot about that.

Quote

They may even be the "Orchidaceae Dahj oncidium" [sic] that Dahj mentions later.  
Good thought.

Quote

"Where are the rest of you? Where are you from?" Doesn't sound like they're just looking for a twin.
Quintuplets? But if the cards represent a bevy of Datakids, shouldn't there be an even number?  And they really need to explain why Synths suddenly need to be created in pairs.  Soong didn't have that problem.  Unless there's another Beta, Data, and Lore out there.

Quote

I did notice a video shudder when Dahj confronted her.  
Mom H-h-headroom.

Quote

Okay, there's a huge unexplained explosion on a StarFleet roof. They find a famous admiral unconscious. He wakes up at home in France. Because of course that's what Star Fleet would do. Even if we assume he woke up earlier, was examined and questioned, but simply didn't recall that [plausible, after a head trauma], this is still a nonsensical cherry on top of the whole ludicrous rooftop attack. No part of that made sense. I feel obligated to note that IF she did indeed have an auto-cloaking device, she may still be alive. The explosion of the overloaded disruptor blocked our view if her in the last second.  
It seems likely that the whole incident was covered up and it was not Starfleet who brought Picard home. The jury is still out on whether the two Romulan caretakers are moles, but I'll be very surprised if Dhaj is really dead.

Quote

Dr. Soji Asha knows she has a twin. Dahj gave no indication that she did.
I did notice that.

View PostSci-Fi Girl, on 05 February 2020 - 03:46 AM, said:

Which in itself is super weird, that she would tell the story of this sentimental family item, and then just leave it behind.
She was programmed to give it to Picard, because... it's made of Data's brain!
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#7 Orpheus

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Posted 05 February 2020 - 08:57 PM

View PostRJDiogenes, on 05 February 2020 - 07:31 PM, said:

Quintuplets? But if the cards represent a bevy of Datakids, shouldn't there be an even number?  And they really need to explain why Synths suddenly need to be created in pairs.  Soong didn't have that problem.  Unless there's another Beta, Data, and Lore out there.

It's too early for me to flesh out any possibilities. The five may not be the clones. Or there may just be one "Queen of Hearts"

I'm just glad Data didn't have a full house: Sevens full of Nines.

Tiny tiny spoiler from episode 2, which I just saw:
Spoiler


#8 Christopher

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Posted 05 February 2020 - 10:59 PM

I don't buy the idea that a poker hand of five queens is meant to represent five women of some sort. In the subconscious of the man who was once Locutus of Borg, there is only one thing that a Queen could symbolize. Especially when every constituent of the whole (it's a poker hand, so of course it's five cards) is the same Queen, just as every drone in the Borg Collective shares the Queen's consciousness. I'm sure Picard's dreams have been haunted by Borg-related symbols for 32 years now, just as they've presumably been haunted by his guilt and grief at Data's loss for 20 years now.
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#9 Orpheus

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Posted 06 February 2020 - 05:20 AM

That did occur to me, briefly, in the moment, but I didn't like the implications of "Queen of Hearts"

It occurred to me again after I saw the Borg cube --sorry "artifact"-- at the end of the episode, but again, I couldn't find any application of "hearts" I liked.

But those are purely personal problems on my end. Your idea remains an excellent one.

Teeny tiny near-spoiler:
Spoiler


#10 Christopher

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Posted 06 February 2020 - 06:59 AM

View PostOrpheus, on 06 February 2020 - 05:20 AM, said:

That did occur to me, briefly, in the moment, but I didn't like the implications of "Queen of Hearts"

It occurred to me again after I saw the Borg cube --sorry "artifact"-- at the end of the episode, but again, I couldn't find any application of "hearts" I liked.

"Off with her head!" comes to mind.
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#11 RJDiogenes

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Posted 06 February 2020 - 07:24 PM

I lost Internet for about three hours today, so I have not been able to view episode three as yet.

View PostOrpheus, on 06 February 2020 - 05:20 AM, said:

That did occur to me, briefly, in the moment, but I didn't like the implications of "Queen of Hearts"  
On the other hand, it may not be the Queens or the Hearts-- it may be the Qs.  Doubt it, though.
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#12 Orpheus

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Posted 06 February 2020 - 10:24 PM

Oh! Daaaayyyyuuuummm!

Picard: "I knew there was something about you..."

For me, it's not about being right or wrong, but about exploring the possibilities, and seeing beyond what we're spoon-fed -- just as in Real Life.

I share your in-show doubts, but Q's are a Legitimate Possibility by my rules of the game. Like the USS Stargazer, they exist in Picard's history even if they haven't played any subsequent* role in Star Trek since TNG -- until this series, and this is Star Trek: PICARD!

[*] Okay, maybe someone flashed-back somewhere in the literature/canon/some official novel that it did something else critical to the timeline [I'm no expert, but I think I've heard inklings of that, and Stargazer was gauzed in secrecy], but if so, I'd venture that most ardent fans -- even most ST writers-- don't know about that, even so

#13 Christopher

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Posted 07 February 2020 - 06:07 PM

Whew, I'm glad the board is back. All day I've been getting "This Domain Has Expired" messages.
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#14 Orpheus

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Posted 07 February 2020 - 06:41 PM

Sorry about the DNS outage.

The registrar auto-changed all subregistrars (people who can register domains for others) to two factor authentication. It never occurred to them that the phone numbers they had on file for some of us [since the 90s in my case]  were LAND LINES. A phone that can't receive texts? Inconceivable!

#15 D.Rabbit

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Posted 08 February 2020 - 01:58 AM

The queen of hearts is synonymous with the Tarot queen of cups. She rules the emotions. She it seated at the edge of the sea.

If we cross over story lines the Wraith in SG Atlantis where all ruled by the queens.
There is also the fact that the queen of England no longer rules the waves but she does hold dominion in space. (Do wish she would clean up the space debris it's starting to crash!)

I've found where my son was hiding his copies of one and two and so far I've counted 4 queens.  Admiral Clancy who told Picard no, the Romulan antagonist and her superior, Raffi Musiker the pilot of the ship he secured and 5 might be Soji the twin sister, she most likely will evolve as the plot thickens.

This show appears to be getting away from male dominated lead roles in this genre.

Nice to see PS is working overtime trying to get Pit Bulls off the endangered species list still. I half expected him to employ Ginger but she is a bit unruly.
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#16 RJDiogenes

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Posted 09 February 2020 - 06:21 PM

View PostOrpheus, on 06 February 2020 - 10:24 PM, said:

I share your in-show doubts, but Q's are a Legitimate Possibility by my rules of the game. Like the USS Stargazer, they exist in Picard's history even if they haven't played any subsequent* role in Star Trek since TNG -- until this series, and this is Star Trek: PICARD!
The Q were mentioned in episode 3, which makes it seem more likely that Q will be back.  I still don't think it will be this season, though.  I wonder if the series might end with Q taking Picard beyond the rim, so to speak, to exist happily ever after in some fashion.  That would be fun just for the rage from the grim and gritty kids.  :lol:

View PostOrpheus, on 07 February 2020 - 06:41 PM, said:

The registrar auto-changed all subregistrars (people who can register domains for others) to two factor authentication. It never occurred to them that the phone numbers they had on file for some of us [since the 90s in my case]  were LAND LINES. A phone that can't receive texts? Inconceivable!  
That one scared me.  I've never seen the board completely disappear before.
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#17 Christopher

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Posted 09 February 2020 - 07:13 PM

View PostRJDiogenes, on 09 February 2020 - 06:21 PM, said:

That one scared me.  I've never seen the board completely disappear before.

As I recall, Ex Isle was created as a result of the Gene Roddenberry's Andromeda fan forum SlipstreamBBS suddenly collapsing and disappearing overnight due to some sort of behind-the-scenes kerfuffle with the owners (the same people behind TrekBBS, at least at the time). This board was set up as a refuge for the Slipstream community that had been rendered abruptly homeless, hence the name. So I did find myself wondering if history had repeated itself.
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#18 Cybersnark

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Posted 10 February 2020 - 11:15 AM

Another forum that I'm on had a separate (Stargate-themed) "Alpha Site" forum for emergency use when the main forum went down (which happened every year or so until they switched server farms).
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#19 G-man

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Posted 10 February 2020 - 12:40 PM

Given that there was a note for “Renewal,” I figured it was an oversight, and contacted Orpheus so that he could address the matter.

Admittedly, I don’t know whether it was my notification, or he had spotted it himself, but I’m just glad that things worked out.

/s/

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Edited by G-man, 10 February 2020 - 12:43 PM.

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#20 gsmonks

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Posted 11 February 2020 - 12:16 PM

S.T Picard isn't shown in my neck of the woods, so anything I'm hearing is second- or third-hand:

The show has been getting good reviews and ratings. That's all I know.
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