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(Re)Watch Voyager with me

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#1 Orpheus

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Posted 12 February 2020 - 01:21 AM

I could make excuses for why I never really watched Voyager ...I was working 100+hrs/wk in the hospital when it came out ...Jennifer Lien looked exactly like an ex who was sugar and spice on top, but was the kind of self-centered that ferments into evil underneath ...I thought the premise could never sustain the series for more than a seasonor two ..I felt 7 of 9's catsuit was so brazenly exploitative that it signalled a show that had long since jumped the shark and was now jumping the Grand Tetons ...the episodes of Voyager I caught while flipping the dial [kids: have your grandparents explain what a dial was and how we flipped them] were apparently the worst ones [Was I hallucinating or was there an episode where Capt Janeway mated with Chakotey and they regressed into slugs?], unlike Enterprise, which left a better taste in my mouth, and which I eventually enjoyed quite a bit as a binge-watch.

But Voyager seems to have secured itself a significant role in canon, and Star Trek: Picard has made me realize that, AbramsTrek notwithstanding[, I'm going to have to watch it all, if I'm to have any real understanding of the kind of Trek I like best, going forward -- boldly where so many fans have gone before.

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#2 Christopher

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Posted 12 February 2020 - 06:35 AM

Coincidentally, former Ex Isler Keith R.A. DeCandido has recently started doing a Voyager rewatch column on Tor.com:

https://www.tor.com/...oyager-rewatch/
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#3 RJDiogenes

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Posted 12 February 2020 - 07:02 PM

View PostOrpheus, on 12 February 2020 - 01:21 AM, said:

I was working 100+hrs/wk in the hospital when it came out ...
You, too?

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Jennifer Lien looked exactly like an ex who was sugar and spice on top, but was the kind of self-centered that ferments into evil underneath ...
The real Jennifer Lien kind of went bonkers, too.

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I thought the premise could never sustain the series for more than a seasonor two ..
I was not enthralled with the premise, either, and had vastly different ideas about how it should be implemented.

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I felt 7 of 9's catsuit was so brazenly exploitative  
I liked it, although, as far as catsuits go, I prefer miniskirts.

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[Was I hallucinating or was there an episode where Capt Janeway mated with Chakotey and they regressed into slugs?]
Actually, the regressing came first, followed by mating. And it was Tom Paris. That's why the crew always called her "Captain Cougar" behind her back.

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But Voyager seems to have secured itself a significant role in canon  
It's actually very good.
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#4 Niko

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Posted 12 February 2020 - 08:52 PM

How fun!  I'm not sure I have somewhere that I can watch the show right now (haven't signed up for CBS All Access, where I assume it lives now) but I've been listening to some first-watch/rewatch podcasts for other older sf/f shows lately, and it's really fun to get a fresh eye on old favorites. :)
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#5 D.Rabbit

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Posted 12 February 2020 - 09:24 PM

I noticed it was running on Netflix CA, all the season as opposed to a short shift with STNG that stopped at 2.8.
I did click on it but remembered how much I was not impressed with it.
I've seen it at least twice during my bought with no viable internet since it's on my video drive.
Last year's 4 months of no decent web, I refused to watch it again.

My favorite is Nelix. What a truly genuine character.
Seven of Nine came close but as a walking talking Barbie Doll I suppose I have some reservations.
Janeway is not impressive at all.
Tuvoc was the worst actor I've ever watched. Vulcan or no, he is the main reason I will not be joining you even if holding you long enough to get through his abrasive actions is what you will need.

If you point out the ones where Tuvoc is absent, I might tune in.
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#6 FarscapeOne

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Posted 13 February 2020 - 12:01 AM

I recently...finished probably 4 months ago... rewatched all shows up to ENTERPRISE on Netflix.  And I'm pretty certain they are all still there, too.

#7 Christopher

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Posted 13 February 2020 - 09:56 AM

Yes, all the non-current live-action Trek shows are still on Netflix, though not the animated series anymore.
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#8 Orpheus

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Posted 22 February 2020 - 08:49 PM

No, I haven't forgotten the rewatch. I just haven't been sure what to say

My comments may sound salty, but when I watched i 1995, I gave it every benefit of a doubt. "A premiere can be the worst episode of a good show, the best episode of a bad show, or a typical episode of a great show"--as a TV writer said on Twitter today. I tried to do the same in this rewatch. I want to like it, or at least survive to the part where I'm told it gets good.

The cold open was nicely exciting. I wasn't crazy about the plasma storm, but I'll go along, even if it doesn't correspond to anything in "space" (if they'd dived in to the other layer of a gas giant or brown dwarf, this effect might have been plausible). It's in line with stuff seen in other Trek shows.

They typified Tom Paris pretty hard as the "Lost Rogue" who we know will turn out True Blue. Did anyone have any doubts? Many of the other cast seem to placed on comfortable (predictable) growth trajectories. Nothing wrong with that -- and maybe they'll prove me wrong.

I've heard a lot of Janeway hate over the decades, but I think she carries proper command presence/weight, while still being a believable person. I loved Picard, but he was a bit of a self-stereotype. Kirk was much more consistent in mythos than onscreen:he utterly trampled Roddenberry's dictum that if the Captain of the [aircraft carrier] USS Enterprise wouldn't do it, Captain Kirk shouldn't do it. Sadly I never really warmed to Cisco, despite liking the rest of the cast (some sooner than others). My memories of Archer seem oddly infused with Dr. Sam Beckett, and aren't particularly "Captainly"

I dislike "holographic realities" in general, but how did the Caretaker decide rural early TwenCen America would be "comforting" vs creepy as hell? Yeah, drop any of us in rural Dorsetshire in Cromwell's England -- How cozy! We'd never want to leave.

Oh yeah, I forgot: the Caretaker's a self-centered idiot who doesn't think things through. That's how he got into his predicament.

Gee, "nucleogenic particles" on Earth/Mars/Venus are basically dust. Assuming that something cleared the atmosphere of them, long ago, what could be sweeping this dusty planet clear now? Maybe some kind of energy pulse fired through every level of the atmosphere, 24/7? Nah.

This show reminds me of so many things Trek has us take for granted: the ubiquitous (embedded) Universal translators, "exotic" cultures less fundamentally different from our own than individual humans are from each other; alien biologies so compatible on every level that not only they can share food without scanning and often interbreed (Maybe THAT'S how humans came to lead the Federation!) Those are just some of the rules of Trek. Maybe I was growing tired of that, rather than Voyager itself. Voyager thus far seemed very TNG, but even TNG began poorly IMHO.

Part II begins somewhere around here

I wasn't crazy about comic relief Neelix and mysterious wise-child Kes. But hey, we lost our Bridge Betazoid, Lt Stadi; and a LOT of SF shows (e.g.. Space 1999) eventually adopt   a shipboard psychic to simplify storytelling, etc. I prefer plots where the choices are fleshed out rationally, and the "woo" is limited to rare, poorly understood species or situations.

I was willing to accept the Kazon (and the implications of their many sects) until the same leader who'd never imagined the possibility of condensation turned out to have serious starships.

Tom Paris: "I'm Federation, so I can't be racist, and it's okay if I constantly mention Chakotay's ethnicity in a mishmash of every Native American stereotype I can think of. They're all the same." (BTW, "life debt" is a meme in European adventure fiction esp about "exotic" cultures, but it has never been practiced in any real culture AFAIK)

In 1995, I vaguely recall thinking "Oh Great Bird, please tell me this series isn't going to be entirely about them finding their way home. They must not have much faith in the show's longevity". I had visions of Lost in Space which I didn't like as a kid.

#9 Christopher

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Posted 22 February 2020 - 09:58 PM

View PostOrpheus, on 22 February 2020 - 08:49 PM, said:

In 1995, I vaguely recall thinking "Oh Great Bird, please tell me this series isn't going to be entirely about them finding their way home. They must not have much faith in the show's longevity". I had visions of Lost in Space which I didn't like as a kid.

The producers assured us at the time that eventually the "quest for home" angle would be downplayed as the crew got caught up in the wonders of exploring the Delta Quadrant. But it took until season 3 before they actually acted on that promise, and then at the end of season 3 they changed their minds and it became entirely about the quest for home for the rest of the series.
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#10 RJDiogenes

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Posted 23 February 2020 - 06:32 PM

View PostOrpheus, on 22 February 2020 - 08:49 PM, said:

The cold open was nicely exciting. I wasn't crazy about the plasma storm, but I'll go along, even if it doesn't correspond to anything in "space" (if they'd dived in to the other layer of a gas giant or brown dwarf, this effect might have been plausible). It's in line with stuff seen in other Trek shows.  
I like Voyager as much as any of the other real Trek shows (I really don't think of them as separate shows, just different windows on the same universe), but the idea that these aliens couldn't figure out water was incredibly stupid. It boggles my mind that this made it past a random comment in the writer's room, let alone to the final product.

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They typified Tom Paris pretty hard as the "Lost Rogue" who we know will turn out True Blue. Did anyone have any doubts? Many of the other cast seem to placed on comfortable (predictable) growth trajectories. Nothing wrong with that -- and maybe they'll prove me wrong.  
One of the cool things about Voyager was that they could have characters who couldn't exist on a regular Trek show (and have characters behave in ways they couldn't on a regular Trek show). Tom Paris was one, the two-time loser working on his last chance for redemption and to prove himself to his father.  The best, though, was the Doctor, who just would have been shut off at the end of the emergency. He was basically one of those bicycle tires in your trunk that's only supposed to get you to the next garage. But he had to be the real doctor, and in doing so became a metaphor for rising above expectations and limitations and becoming more than you thought you could be.

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I've heard a lot of Janeway hate over the decades, but I think she carries proper command presence/weight, while still being a believable person.  
Janeway was fine as played by Kate Mulgrew.  The first season DVDs include the abandoned footage of Genevieve Bujold, who is a really nice actress, but who was a poor choice for Janeway.  It's obvious that the producers were trying to create a female Picard and it really did not work.  We lucked out.

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This show reminds me of so many things Trek has us take for granted: the ubiquitous (embedded) Universal translators, "exotic" cultures less fundamentally different from our own than individual humans are from each other; alien biologies so compatible on every level that not only they can share food without scanning and often interbreed (Maybe THAT'S how humans came to lead the Federation!) Those are just some of the rules of Trek. Maybe I was growing tired of that, rather than Voyager itself.  
Eh, every universe has its own peculiar rules.  I read or watch enough fictional landscapes that I rarely tire of one.

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I wasn't crazy about comic relief Neelix and mysterious wise-child Kes.  
I liked Neelix fine, as originally envisioned:  Local guide and short-order cook. He was supposed to be necessary because they were short on power and supplies, but they bailed on that concept quickly.  Kes likewise was a good idea that they didn't develop.  They should have shown her visibly aging throughout each season.  But, again, they bailed on the concept.  Plus, the actress was pretty bland.  All in all, Seven was a major improvement.

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In 1995, I vaguely recall thinking "Oh Great Bird, please tell me this series isn't going to be entirely about them finding their way home. They must not have much faith in the show's longevity". I had visions of Lost in Space which I didn't like as a kid.  
Again, I like Voyager, but there were quite a few things I would have done differently.  One is that I would have placed the ship far closer to Federation space-- say about fifteen years out-- and had them in contact with Starfleet from the start, although with a communication delay of weeks.  This would have given more urgency to their struggle to return home, as well as more gravitas to crew deaths, and more poignancy to those long-distance relationships as time begins to wear down initial declarations of fidelity.
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#11 Christopher

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Posted 23 February 2020 - 06:58 PM

View PostRJDiogenes, on 23 February 2020 - 06:32 PM, said:

The best, though, was the Doctor, who just would have been shut off at the end of the emergency. He was basically one of those bicycle tires in your trunk that's only supposed to get you to the next garage.

That's a cool analogy.


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The first season DVDs include the abandoned footage of Genevieve Bujold, who is a really nice actress, but who was a poor choice for Janeway.  It's obvious that the producers were trying to create a female Picard and it really did not work.  We lucked out.

I don't think so; they considered a lot of different actresses, mostly American. (It was rumored that Lindsay Wagner came close.) I think they cast Bujold because they were glad to get an actress of her caliber, not because she was French.



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Kes likewise was a good idea that they didn't develop.  They should have shown her visibly aging throughout each season.  But, again, they bailed on the concept.  Plus, the actress was pretty bland.  All in all, Seven was a major improvement.

I agree they squandered Kes's potential, but I thought Jennifer Lien was terrific in the role. At the start, her character was a year and a half old, the actress only 20, yet she always conveyed a wisdom far beyond her years, an old soul in a young body.



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Again, I like Voyager, but there were quite a few things I would have done differently.  One is that I would have placed the ship far closer to Federation space-- say about fifteen years out-- and had them in contact with Starfleet from the start, although with a communication delay of weeks.  This would have given more urgency to their struggle to return home, as well as more gravitas to crew deaths, and more poignancy to those long-distance relationships as time begins to wear down initial declarations of fidelity.

That's an intriguing idea. I always felt it was unrealistic to think they had any chance of getting home in their lifetimes (before they started tossing in various jumps of thousands of light years). The 70-year estimate was a best case if they maintained optimal speed, yet they were constantly stopping for supplies or exploration and taking side trips and being slowed down by fights or space phenomena, so it should've taken centuries. Realistically, they should've just found a safe haven to settle down in and then worked on achieving long-range communication with Starfleet.
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#12 Orpheus

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Posted Yesterday, 03:34 AM

View PostChristopher, on 22 February 2020 - 09:58 PM, said:

The producers assured us at the time that eventually the "quest for home" angle would be downplayed as the crew got caught up in the wonders of exploring the Delta Quadrant. But it took until season 3 before they actually acted on that promise, and then at the end of season 3 they changed their minds and it became entirely about the quest for home for the rest of the series.
Thank you for the context.

I may have known that, a couple of careers/lifetimes ago, but who knows when it would have percolated back to ready conscious access -- most likely during an inopportune panic traffic maneuver, a public/committee speech, or -erm- "a delicate intimate social interaction". The lives saved (or conceived), policies enacted, etc., owe you a debt. ...But not a "life debt".

View PostRJDiogenes, on 23 February 2020 - 06:32 PM, said:

One of the cool things about Voyager was that they could have characters who couldn't exist on a regular Trek show (and have characters behave in ways they couldn't on a regular Trek show). Tom Paris was one, the two-time loser working on his last chance for redemption and to prove himself to his father.  The best, though, was the Doctor, who just would have been shut off at the end of the emergency. He was basically one of those bicycle tires in your trunk that's only supposed to get you to the next garage. But he had to be the real doctor, and in doing so became a metaphor for rising above expectations and limitations and becoming more than you thought you could be.
I think less arrow-straight Federation officers could (and should!) have been done in TNG.

They could have done a lot more with Ro Laren, for example. Indeed, I'm futilely hoping she shows up in ST:Picard. She seems a great fit. Alas, she's been a great fit before. There's some history there. Producer Jeri Taylor actually had them write Ro Laren out of TNG, so she could be available for an anticipated role in DS9. Alas, no one consulted enough with Michelle Forbes, who loved her character -- but as a recurring guest, not the locked-in regular that was written into the DS9 bible. Hence we got Kira Nerys.-- and, I suspect, Tom Paris, though Ro Laren could as easily have played on the Maquis side of the crew, or maybe (if she'd done DS9) someone torn in the middle.

Declining the DS9 regular role peeved Michelle Forbe's agent (who would have gotten 10% of her series regular salary for years, for little/no work), so the agent started warning ST to avoid her [i.e. "Michelle won't play ball" -- from the agent's POV, anyway]. I hate professionals who don't wholeheartedly serve their clients.

View PostRJDiogenes, on 23 February 2020 - 06:32 PM, said:

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Those are just some of the rules of Trek. Maybe I was growing tired of that, rather than Voyager itself.  
Eh, every universe has its own peculiar rules.  I read or watch enough fictional landscapes that I rarely tire of one.
At the risk of offending some of our tireless professionals, I felt that too many of Trek's rules were for convenience, and actively impeded the development of challenging themes and ideas by eliminating their necessity. I've had several debates (off this board) over whether "just let me tell the tale I want" is a SF writer's pure prerogative. While SF was bound to be an eye-opener for me in the 60s/70s as I worked through SF's glorious history, I sincerely feel the pace of topical SF exploration slowed after that.

Consider how "just let me tell my tale" has affected other genres, pandering to stereotypes/archetypes/drama. Most folks spend 100x as much time consuming media as reading college texts.

Cop shows have been popular all my life, yet the common man has generally gained little genuine/accurate insight into law enforcement in ANY of its diverse manifestations. Andy Griffith may actually have been as accurate a snapshot of his niche as Adam-12, and more than Dragnet. Some standouts like Hill Street Blues and The Wire set a high (but circumscribed) mark, but dozens of other cop shows actually set the public's understanding back by creating/adhering to dramatic but inaccurate "genre norms".

As someone who has been auditing actual law school courses for some years now, I can tell you that 30 years of Law&Order or other procedurals has set public understanding back on even the simplest fundamentals of the law. I tried to bingewatch that series from S1. It was unimaginable crap. The basic principles of law, the normal procedures for anything from a traffic ticket to a murder case to a Supreme Court ruling are so falsely presented that most of today's voters can't even parse the news.

CSI-style forensics shows have actually helped get people routinely convicted or even executed on evidence so far short of the Daubert standard that the Federal government has actually published reports stating those tests are pseudoscience. Do you believe in fingerprint matches (or god-forbid -- partials), standard DNA matches (rule-outs are fine), tire marks, hair samples, fiber analysis, bitemarks... the range of nonsense that can destroy your life is endless.

Cowboys? Every general principle you've seen is wrong (hint: most cowboys "back in the day" weren't white). Gunslingers, soldiers. mobsters, doctors, drug kingpins, mathematicians...

I don't give a frigg for a writer's license to tell a [marketable] tale, if I have to question if American voters have any sense of the realities that will guide our futures. And science is on that list.

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I liked Neelix fine, as originally envisioned:  Local guide and short-order cook. He was supposed to be necessary because they were short on power and supplies, but they bailed on that concept quickly.  Kes likewise was a good idea that they didn't develop.
I haven't seen enough to comment intelligently. Both roles had promise, but from the snatches I saw, they weren't handled well -- in ways that seem foreseeable, even this early.

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Again, I like Voyager, but there were quite a few things I would have done differently.  One is that I would have placed the ship far closer to Federation space-- say about fifteen years out-- and had them in contact with Starfleet from the start, although with a communication delay of weeks.  This would have given more urgency to their struggle to return home, as well as more gravitas to crew deaths, and more poignancy to those long-distance relationships as time begins to wear down initial declarations of fidelity.
I remember thinking the same in 1995. In their defense, I imagine they might have felt they were revisiting one of Roddenberry's basic pitches "Admiral Hornblower in space" -- i.e. ships that survived, negotiated, fought, etc completely cut off from their faraway governments/support for months at a stretch.

Essentially their entire remaining adult lifetime at a stretch -- assuming completely ideal circumstances at maximal speed the entire way -- was a bridge too far.

#13 Cybersnark

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Posted Yesterday, 11:26 AM

I maintain that Voyager's setup on paper would've been the perfect set up for a modern Netflix/Hulu/CBSAccess/Whatever binge-worthy show. Tight serialization, an ongoing arc with increasing stakes --it just had the bad luck to bubble up from the collective unconscious a couple of decades too early, so no one had any idea what to do with it.

View PostOrpheus, on 24 February 2020 - 03:34 AM, said:

Cop shows have been popular all my life, yet the common man has generally gained little genuine/accurate insight into law enforcement in ANY of its diverse manifestations.
An apt analogy, as I tend to view most Star Trek series (from a Watsonian perspective) as the Federation equivalent of based-on-a-true-story cop shows (with varying levels of historical accuracy in costuming/makeup/set-design).

(I also tend to keep reminding people that trying to extrapolate the normal daily life of Federation citizens based on what you see a Starfleet crew doing is like trying to understand modern-day America if <i>all you've ever seen</I> are the NCIS shows.)
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#14 Christopher

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Posted Yesterday, 03:42 PM

View PostCybersnark, on 24 February 2020 - 11:26 AM, said:

I maintain that Voyager's setup on paper would've been the perfect set up for a modern Netflix/Hulu/CBSAccess/Whatever binge-worthy show. Tight serialization, an ongoing arc with increasing stakes --it just had the bad luck to bubble up from the collective unconscious a couple of decades too early, so no one had any idea what to do with it.

Take it from someone who was there at the time -- this is not correct. There were quite a few shows at the time that were much more serialized than Voyager, notably Deep Space Nine and particularly Babylon 5, which was laying the groundwork for the modern season-arc model a year before Voyager premiered. But Voyager aired on a network that wanted it to be episodic, so it was less serialized than was typical even at the time. It was UPN's flagship show, the anchor for the whole network, so UPN wanted a show that played it safe and was easily accessible. That was one of the disappointing things about it to many viewers in its first run, myself included -- that it felt like a throwback to an earlier model of TV and wasn't allowed to take full advantage of the potential of its premise.

So no, it was not too early at all. It was at exactly the right time to be as serialized as it needed to be -- it was just on the wrong platform. It wasn't allowed the freedom that its syndicated contemporaries were.


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An apt analogy, as I tend to view most Star Trek series (from a Watsonian perspective) as the Federation equivalent of based-on-a-true-story cop shows (with varying levels of historical accuracy in costuming/makeup/set-design).

I suspect this may be exactly what Gene Roddenberry intended it to be. He hinted as much in the preface to his novelization to Star Trek: The Motion Picture, in which he adopted the persona of a 23rd-century TV producer who'd created an "inaccurately larger-than-life" dramatization of the Enterprise's adventures; the changes in TMP's depiction of the universe were explained as the result of Admiral Kirk having approval over the new production so that it was more authentic.

I realized a few years ago: Roddenberry got his start in TV writing up police cases for Dragnet, and both Dragnet and Star Trek were framed by opening narration in the form of the lead character's official report of an incident. So maybe Roddenberry saw ST as the same sort of thing as Dragnet, a dramatized interpretation of the case file being presented. Which makes me wonder if this hypothetical future show might have been adapting mission reports from multiple ships and just giving them all to the same cast of characters, or if the Enterprise crew might even be composite characters. Although that doesn't fit what Roddenberry proposed in the TMP preface. But it's an interesting thing to speculate about.

Edited by Christopher, Yesterday, 03:42 PM.

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#15 RJDiogenes

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Posted Yesterday, 07:15 PM

View PostOrpheus, on 24 February 2020 - 03:34 AM, said:

I think less arrow-straight Federation officers could (and should!) have been done in TNG.  
And they were. But in that context, there were consequences.  On Voyager, all hands were needed, so Paris got redemption instead of jail time, the Doctor got a life instead of oblivion, and when Tuvok made a deal with the devil, the best Janeway could do was say, "Next time, bring your logic to me."  None of this could have happened where there are laws.

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They could have done a lot more with Ro Laren, for example.
She wasn't my favorite character, but it's a shame she wasn't in the main cast of DS9. A character who straddled both worlds would have been perfect.

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and, I suspect, Tom Paris  
Tom Paris, I believe, was originally supposed to be a less arrow-straight Federation officer who appeared on TNG.  :D  Locarno, I think, was the name.  But they decided his character had gone too far for redemption, so they changed his name and backstory a bit.

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I've had several debates (off this board) over whether "just let me tell the tale I want" is a SF writer's pure prerogative.
I'm not sure I entirely get what you mean.  That's any writer's prerogative.  But when you're in somebody else's house, you take off your shoes.

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While SF was bound to be an eye-opener for me in the 60s/70s as I worked through SF's glorious history, I sincerely feel the pace of topical SF exploration slowed after that.  
The days of Dangerous Visions are gone.  In these times, death is character development and political correctness is edgy.

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Consider how "just let me tell my tale" has affected other genres, pandering to stereotypes/archetypes/drama. Most folks spend 100x as much time consuming media as reading college texts.  
Okay, so you seem to be advocating for realism.  I can't go for that.  :lol:

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Cop shows have been popular all my life, yet the common man has generally gained little genuine/accurate insight into law enforcement in ANY of its diverse manifestations. Andy Griffith may actually have been as accurate a snapshot of his niche as Adam-12, and more than Dragnet. Some standouts like Hill Street Blues and The Wire set a high (but circumscribed) mark, but dozens of other cop shows actually set the public's understanding back by creating/adhering to dramatic but inaccurate "genre norms".  
I'd rather watch Starsky & Hutch. It's the audience's responsibility to know fact from fiction, and not the writer's responsibility to be Wikipedia. Peanuts is a great comic strip, but hopefully most people know that beagles don't fantasize about WWI or have pool tables in their doghouses.

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I don't give a frigg for a writer's license to tell a [marketable] tale, if I have to question if American voters have any sense of the realities that will guide our futures. And science is on that list.  
Space Opera causes bad election outcomes?  That's a rather Wertham point of view.  :lol:

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I remember thinking the same in 1995. In their defense, I imagine they might have felt they were revisiting one of Roddenberry's basic pitches "Admiral Hornblower in space" -- i.e. ships that survived, negotiated, fought, etc completely cut off from their faraway governments/support for months at a stretch.  
They could have done that as a twenty-year mission to a Magellanic Cloud or something.  The single advantage of isolating the ship was to make it a melting pot of diverse types that it was not possible to have elsewhere.
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#16 Christopher

Christopher
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Posted Yesterday, 08:10 PM

View PostRJDiogenes, on 24 February 2020 - 07:15 PM, said:

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They could have done a lot more with Ro Laren, for example.
She wasn't my favorite character, but it's a shame she wasn't in the main cast of DS9. A character who straddled both worlds would have been perfect.

I think they were ultimately better off with Kira. After all, Ro would've been a Starfleet officer, Sisko's direct subordinate, and thus wouldn't have credibly been free to defy him as Kira was, especially with her past record for insubordination. Also, Ro was agnostic about Bajoran religion, so she wouldn't have allowed the same kind of exploration of faith that Kira did.
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