Jump to content


Getting an "Insecure Connection" warning for Exisle? No worry

Details in this thread

STAR TREK: PICARD - S1, E9, "Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1"...


  • Please log in to reply
43 replies to this topic

#1 FarscapeOne

FarscapeOne
  • Islander
  • 4,041 posts

Posted 19 March 2020 - 01:16 AM

Following an unconventional and dangerous transit, Picard and the crew finally arrive at Soji's home world, Coppelius. However, with Romulan warbirds on their tail, their arrival brings only greater danger as the crew discovers more than expected about the planet's inhabitants.

#2 Christopher

Christopher
  • Demigod
  • 33,063 posts

Posted 19 March 2020 - 07:33 AM

I think this is the first episode without a flashback, unless you count the clips from earlier episodes flashing through Picard's mind. Also I think it's the first episode since Rios was introduced that doesn't feature any of his holograms. I hope they're okay.

What was that with Picard going into that dazed state and saying "Thank you all for coming?" I thought that something on the planet was speaking through him, but it wasn't followed up on. I guess he was just in some kind of fugue state due to the crash and his brain abnormality? Or maybe it's setting up something that won't get paid off until next week (serial TV can be so annoying sometimes).

So there's a whole planet of android offspring of Data, a remarkable culmination of his desire to procreate from "The Offspring." Although introducing a hitherto-unknown lookalike son of Soong was kind of a contrived way to get Brent Spiner back. Seriously, why are all the men in the Soong family completely identical? Are they actually clones? Maybe there's a reason Soong made all his androids look like him.

Speaking of lookalikes, Isa Briones is surprisingly sexy as Sutra. I'm guessing she's named specifically after the Kama one.

So now we know why the Admonition drove the Romulans crazy and shut down the Borg -- because it's meant only for pure AI minds. Although it seems the Zhat Vash were actually right about the existential threat posed by synth life; the only thing they were wrong about was which side sent them the message.

A nice nod to the books: The episode canonized ka'athyra as the name for the Vulcan lyre, as coined by Margaret Wander Bonanno in the novel Dwellers in the Crucible in 1985. Well, it didn't specify the lyre, just that it was a Vulcan musical instrument, but still, it's a nice homage.

The episode made surprisingly little use of Seven and Elnor. Why were they even there if they hardly did anything? Well, maybe they'll play more of a role in the finale. Although the bit with Picard telling Seven that saving the galaxy was in her hands now made me wonder if those rumors of a Fenris Rangers spinoff are legitimate. (The theme song writes itself. "Go, go, Fenris Rangers!")
"You don't use science to show that you're right, you use science to become right." -- xkcd

"The first man to raise a fist is the man who's run out of ideas." -- "H. G. Wells," Time After Time


Written Worlds -- My homepage and blog
Patreon Page -- Featuring reviews and original fiction
Facebook Author Page

#3 Christopher

Christopher
  • Demigod
  • 33,063 posts

Posted 19 March 2020 - 09:33 AM

Speaking of synth names, I just realized that the Coppelian androids follow the precedent of Data and Lore in that they're named after forms of writing or storytelling -- Sutra, Saga, Codex, Rune, Arcana. However, I can't find any such meanings for the names Soji, Dahj, or Jana.
"You don't use science to show that you're right, you use science to become right." -- xkcd

"The first man to raise a fist is the man who's run out of ideas." -- "H. G. Wells," Time After Time


Written Worlds -- My homepage and blog
Patreon Page -- Featuring reviews and original fiction
Facebook Author Page

#4 FarscapeOne

FarscapeOne
  • Islander
  • 4,041 posts

Posted 19 March 2020 - 10:18 AM

I like the twist of the Adminition being a promise rather than a warning.  It makes sense.

The one thing I found that was too hard to swallow was an android having the ability to mind meld.  I don't recall artificial life ever having telepathic abilities in STAR TREK.

Having a long lost son of Soong... I can buy that, but it begs the question of who's the mom.  I don't think it's the original Juliana, because he seems older than the timeline would fit with.  Can't be after Noonien fled Omicron Theta, because that would make Alton in his 30s, 40s on the very outside.

I'm thinking Alton and Noonien had a falling out... disagreements on how to proceed with artificial life, and went to separate planets to continue their work in their own way.  Noonien likely succeeded first, but Alton was right behind him and actually had a leg up in some areas.

So Picard has Irumodic Syndrome... it's never said on screen, but all evidence points to it.  My mind keeps going to the movie LOGAN, which was Professor X and Wolverine's swan song.  (Great movie, by the way.)  I figured that would be an element to this series.

The Iconians... this episode seems to discount them, but I think they were involved in a different way.  I think the Iconians succeeded in creating AI and they got threatened by the AIs being physically better than them.  And somehow, those AIs got help from those Admonition people, and THEY were the ones to destroy the Iconians.  It's possible the Iconian AIs became part of the intergalactic AI club and left the Milky Way, much like how Lorien and the last First Ones left the galaxy to be with the other First Ones that left, taking the Vorlons and Shadows with them in BABYLON 5.

Seven... you know, does Jeri Ryan age?  My wife and I are just floored by how she looks like no time has passed.  I wonder what role Seven will play going forward... definitely looks like the new leader of the xBs.  (Christopher, can you show me a source of those Fenris Rangers spinoff rumors?  I never heard about that.  It does sound like what LEGEND OF THE RANGERS could have been had it been done differently.)

A lot to tie up next week, with a season 2 coming.  How many threads will be finished, and what will be left for later?

Edited by FarscapeOne, 19 March 2020 - 10:20 AM.


#5 FarscapeOne

FarscapeOne
  • Islander
  • 4,041 posts

Posted 19 March 2020 - 10:20 AM

 Christopher, on 19 March 2020 - 09:33 AM, said:

Speaking of synth names, I just realized that the Coppelian androids follow the precedent of Data and Lore in that they're named after forms of writing or storytelling -- Sutra, Saga, Codex, Rune, Arcana. However, I can't find any such meanings for the names Soji, Dahj, or Jana.

A thought occured to me... except for Sutra, they all have 'J' in their name.  Could they be the physical template of Alton's mother?  Not thinking it's Juliana, but maybe a Jessica, Jennifer, Jasmine, etc.?

#6 Christopher

Christopher
  • Demigod
  • 33,063 posts

Posted 19 March 2020 - 10:47 AM

 FarscapeOne, on 19 March 2020 - 10:18 AM, said:

The one thing I found that was too hard to swallow was an android having the ability to mind meld.  I don't recall artificial life ever having telepathic abilities in STAR TREK.

It's artificial, though, so it can have whatever abilities you know how to give it. If you can build androids to emulate other humanoid cognitive and sensory functions, presumably you can build them to emulate telepathy as well. It's not magic in the Trek universe, but a proven cognitive ability that's understood by science.

And we have seen it go the other way -- Spock was able to meld with both Nomad and V'Ger. So if telepathic interaction with AIs is possible in that direction, it stands to reason that it's possible in the other direction.


Quote

So Picard has Irumodic Syndrome... it's never said on screen, but all evidence points to it.

Not quite. Yes, the parietal lobe abnormality that's killing him now is the same one that caused his Irumodic Syndrome in "All Good Things...," but as Crusher said there, the abnormality could lead to a number of different neurological disorders including Irumodic. I think this must be a different one, because Picard shows no sign of the cognitive decline associated with Irumodic. Also, if it were Irumodic, they would've just said so.


Quote

The Iconians... this episode seems to discount them, but I think they were involved in a different way.  I think the Iconians succeeded in creating AI and they got threatened by the AIs being physically better than them.  

Why assume the Iconians had anything to do with this at all? Nothing in the show suggests that, and there are countless other ancient civilizations in Trek. Last week people were speculating it would turn out to be the Tkon behind the message because they could move stars. At least in that case there's a reason for drawing the connection, however tenuous. And of course it proved wrong, like most speculations do.


Quote

(Christopher, can you show me a source of those Fenris Rangers spinoff rumors?  I never heard about that.  It does sound like what LEGEND OF THE RANGERS could have been had it been done differently.)

It's from a comment Chabon made on Instagram in answer to a fan question, but it's probably nothing.

https://www.reddit.c...s_instagram_qa/

Quote

A Seven & Elnor based show with guest guidance from Dr. or Janeway.. any interest there? Minus the Janeway, I pitched this very idea half in jest, half in earnest, to my partners many times as we were making the show this season. I've never found relationship between Janeway and Seven to be quite as compelling as I understand that many other fans of VOY do.

"You don't use science to show that you're right, you use science to become right." -- xkcd

"The first man to raise a fist is the man who's run out of ideas." -- "H. G. Wells," Time After Time


Written Worlds -- My homepage and blog
Patreon Page -- Featuring reviews and original fiction
Facebook Author Page

#7 FarscapeOne

FarscapeOne
  • Islander
  • 4,041 posts

Posted 19 March 2020 - 10:57 AM

Nomad and V'Ger... good points.  It still seems far fetched, but at least there is that as a possible precedent.  So I guess we can call organic telepathy wifi, too?

But Sutra learned mind melding on her own... she wasn't programmed to emulate that aspect of organics.  It's because of her fascination with Vulcan culture.

I suppose that might be the final step in the evolution of AIs in the Milky Way that makes the intergalactic ones come... that would explain why they never arrived when there have been so many androids in STAR TREK.  It's likely also the trigger for the message... androids won't know about it until they get that ability.

#8 Christopher

Christopher
  • Demigod
  • 33,063 posts

Posted 19 March 2020 - 11:12 AM

 FarscapeOne, on 19 March 2020 - 10:57 AM, said:

But Sutra learned mind melding on her own... she wasn't programmed to emulate that aspect of organics.  It's because of her fascination with Vulcan culture.

And as a synthetic being, she could have altered her neurological structure to emulate Vulcan neurology, or had Soong modify her to give her the ability. It would be a hardware upgrade, not programming.

If Data could get a chip installed to give him emotions, then Sutra could get a psionic modem plugged in.



Quote

I suppose that might be the final step in the evolution of AIs in the Milky Way that makes the intergalactic ones come... that would explain why they never arrived when there have been so many androids in STAR TREK.

It's not just androids, it's android sentience. TOS tended to treat its AIs as merely elaborate machines that mimicked living beings but were ultimately trapped by rigid programming. The only one that was really depicted as a fully humanlike consciousness was Rayna Capek, and her consciousness failed (in what I tend to assume was the same kind of cascade failure that killed Data's first daughter Lal).
"You don't use science to show that you're right, you use science to become right." -- xkcd

"The first man to raise a fist is the man who's run out of ideas." -- "H. G. Wells," Time After Time


Written Worlds -- My homepage and blog
Patreon Page -- Featuring reviews and original fiction
Facebook Author Page

#9 FarscapeOne

FarscapeOne
  • Islander
  • 4,041 posts

Posted 19 March 2020 - 07:03 PM

I think Ruk would qualify as one that was not as confined by his programming.

#10 Christopher

Christopher
  • Demigod
  • 33,063 posts

Posted 19 March 2020 - 07:10 PM

 FarscapeOne, on 19 March 2020 - 07:03 PM, said:

I think Ruk would qualify as one that was not as confined by his programming.

He showed some signs of surpassing it, yes, but was still portrayed as less mentally flexible than a human (not defying his programming until Kirk convinced him to consider it). The super-AIs here, so it seems, are triggered to come when synthetic intelligence begins to surpass its builders -- when they're on the verge of a technological Singularity, such that organic life would see them as an existential threat and try to wipe them out, which is why the super-AIs want to wipe the organics out first.
"You don't use science to show that you're right, you use science to become right." -- xkcd

"The first man to raise a fist is the man who's run out of ideas." -- "H. G. Wells," Time After Time


Written Worlds -- My homepage and blog
Patreon Page -- Featuring reviews and original fiction
Facebook Author Page

#11 RJDiogenes

RJDiogenes

    Idealistic Cynic

  • Demigod
  • 14,323 posts

Posted 19 March 2020 - 08:18 PM

And here we have the first part of the season finale. Not everything I would hope for, but actually quite good.  We spent most of the episode on a sunny planet that's populated by androids wearing, not quite togas, but colorful diaphanous summerwear-- very Star Trek indeed, and a nice change of pace from the dreary generic 21st-century Sci-Fi sets.

It's a nice touch that the androids don't have a super-civilization that is all powerful. They have very finite resources and they used up a lot of them bringing La Sirena and the Artifact and the Romulan Hipster to the surface-- and I'm still not quite sure if they were intending to bring them down for a meeting, or just kill them. In any case, most of them survived. Possibly the only fatalities were Rios' holograms.  

On to the plot:  Upon arriving at this new planet, we are introduced to a new Soong-- the son of Soong-- but it's the same old Soong and dance.  Haha.  Nice enough guy, but he's fruity as a nutcake.  He created this private world of androids, some of whom resemble Data and some who don't-- and provided a haven for Bruce Maddox after the Synth Ban. How Maddox knew about the place and got there is still a bit fuzzy.  Soji represents one model, and there's been at least four of her-- including at least one who has that Data look about her, which is really cool except for the fact that she's evil.  She even conspired with Hipster to kill one of her sisters to promote anti-biological bigotry.

Because that is actually the main plot of this series. I was actually right when I said that the Jack Flash brain zap was intended for androids and damages biological brains. Because the envisioned Apocalypse is all about an intergalactic civilization of artificial life forms who swoop in and save oppressed androids from nasty biologicals-- so more like the Killer B's awful Second Foundation Trilogy than Clarke's Odyssey series. And Data-Soji got their telephone number out of Agnes's damaged brain and they will soon be summoned to wipe out the Alpha Quadrant.

There's other stuff going on, too, including a lot of nice little character moments.  The best was an encounter between Raffi and Picard where we see that they really did mean as much to each other as Riker and Picard did, even if things ended badly in this case.  And Rios has genuine fondness for Agnes, as we saw in another touching scene.  And Elfwich was reunited with Picard again-- kid's a hugger-- and was pleased to learn how proud Picard is of him.  And, in a moment that was perhaps intended as foreshadowing, Picard left him with Seven, declaring that saving the galaxy was their job now.  I wonder if Seven can get that cube off the ground.

But most interesting of all, Picard revealed that his Irumodic Syndrome has kicked in after all these years and he is terminal.  Coincidentally-- very, very coincidentally-- Son of Soong is developing a way to transfer a human consciousness into an android body.  Will Picard live on as a Humandroid, a living bridge between two worlds?  Stay tuned.

Oh, I almost forgot, there are 218 Romulan Angrybirds on the way to destroy the planet. Where the f*ck is Clancy's f*ck*ng fleet?  I have no f*ck*ng idea.

 FarscapeOne, on 19 March 2020 - 10:18 AM, said:

Having a long lost son of Soong... I can buy that, but it begs the question of who's the mom.  I don't think it's the original Juliana, because he seems older than the timeline would fit with.  Can't be after Noonien fled Omicron Theta, because that would make Alton in his 30s, 40s on the very outside.  
According to Wiki, Data was deactivated on Omicron Theta in 2336 and Picard takes place in 2399, so he could be in his early 60s-- but that's still too young.

Quote

I think the Iconians succeeded in creating AI and they got threatened by the AIs being physically better than them.  And somehow, those AIs got help from those Admonition people, and THEY were the ones to destroy the Iconians.  
That occurred to me, too.  But then I think the Enterprise would have found a bunch of craters instead of active gateways.

Quote

Seven... you know, does Jeri Ryan age?  My wife and I are just floored by how she looks like no time has passed.  
She sure does look great.

 FarscapeOne, on 19 March 2020 - 10:20 AM, said:

A thought occured to me... except for Sutra, they all have 'J' in their name.  Could they be the physical template of Alton's mother?  Not thinking it's Juliana, but maybe a Jessica, Jennifer, Jasmine, etc.?  
Before this episode, it occurred to me that the first two letters of Dahj's name are the same as Data's, and the first two letters of Soji's name are the same as Soong's, but that seems to go nowhere.  Beautiful Flower doesn't fit any pattern either.
Please visit The RJDiogenes Store. Posted Image   And my Gallery. Posted Image And my YouTube Page. Posted Image And read Trunkards. Posted Image  And then there's my Heroes Essays.  Posted Image

#12 FarscapeOne

FarscapeOne
  • Islander
  • 4,041 posts

Posted 19 March 2020 - 08:27 PM

Well, the Iconian homeworld WAS littered with craters and destruction.  There was just the one gateway that Picard found, and it was destroyed.

#13 Cardie

Cardie

    I'm a very *good* tailor

  • Administrator
  • 22,651 posts

Posted 20 March 2020 - 12:17 AM

Quote

Although it seems the Zhat Vash were actually right about the existential threat posed by synth life; the only thing they were wrong about was which side sent them the message.

It's a tragic causal loop because if the Romulans hadn't been spooked by the Admonition they wouldn't have necessarily gotten to the point of wanting to annihilate all synths, thus provoking the very apocalypse they have feared for all those millennia.

I agree with RJ that Chekhov's golem might be a home for Picard's consciousness, although I am not keen on any "live eternally as an android" scenarios.

The name of the homeworld being Coppelius alludes to the ETA Hoffmann story about a man's fixation with the villain Coppellius, a designer of automatons. (Also the source for the ballet Coppelia.)
Nothing succeeds like excess.

#14 Christopher

Christopher
  • Demigod
  • 33,063 posts

Posted 20 March 2020 - 06:34 AM

View PostCardie, on 20 March 2020 - 12:17 AM, said:

It's a tragic causal loop because if the Romulans hadn't been spooked by the Admonition they wouldn't have necessarily gotten to the point of wanting to annihilate all synths, thus provoking the very apocalypse they have feared for all those millennia.

That kind of fear does tend to be a self-fulfilling prophecy.


Quote

I agree with RJ that Chekhov's golem might be a home for Picard's consciousness, although I am not keen on any "live eternally as an android" scenarios.

I very much doubt it. I think Patrick Stewart came back in order to do another Logan, to bring his other iconic character's journey to a decisive and dramatic conclusion. He was convinced to return to the role because it was a story he felt was worth doing; I doubt he would've done so if it were as gimmicky as putting Picard's mind in an android body. Actors love playing death scenes, after all.

As I said, Soong said he had a recent sense of urgency about completing the consciousness-transfer work. From the way he phrased it, that was clearly true well before Picard came into his life. Obviously he's dying and trying to save himself, like Ira Graves before him. Indeed, I just formed a suspicion this morning -- that Noonien's improbably identical "son" is actually Noonien's consciousness somehow transferred or copied into a clone of himself, and now that he's lost the means to do that, he's experimenting with an alternative way to live on. Maybe that was always the end goal of his android project, which was why he gave his androids his face.


Quote

The name of the homeworld being Coppelius alludes to the ETA Hoffmann story about a man's fixation with the villain Coppellius, a designer of automatons. (Also the source for the ballet Coppelia.)

Ah, thanks. I was meaning to look up the name.
"You don't use science to show that you're right, you use science to become right." -- xkcd

"The first man to raise a fist is the man who's run out of ideas." -- "H. G. Wells," Time After Time


Written Worlds -- My homepage and blog
Patreon Page -- Featuring reviews and original fiction
Facebook Author Page

#15 FarscapeOne

FarscapeOne
  • Islander
  • 4,041 posts

Posted 20 March 2020 - 10:09 AM

Alton is really a clone consciousness of Noonien?  I like that idea, and it does fit a number of things.

Except the aging part... presumably, he would have made an android body that doesn't age, though the argument could be made he did it blend in with other people more easily.

#16 Christopher

Christopher
  • Demigod
  • 33,063 posts

Posted 20 March 2020 - 10:30 AM

^No, I'm assuming he's a clone in the literal, biological sense. I wouldn't have used the word "clone" to mean a different kind of copy, since I'm not that sloppy with words.

Indeed, maybe Arik Soong has been cloning himself for generations. Arik studied the work of Eugenics War scientists, after all... so maybe he studied the work of Stavos Keniclius?
"You don't use science to show that you're right, you use science to become right." -- xkcd

"The first man to raise a fist is the man who's run out of ideas." -- "H. G. Wells," Time After Time


Written Worlds -- My homepage and blog
Patreon Page -- Featuring reviews and original fiction
Facebook Author Page

#17 FarscapeOne

FarscapeOne
  • Islander
  • 4,041 posts

Posted 20 March 2020 - 11:06 AM

Ok.  That's certainly possible.  But wouldn't people have caught on to that?  Besides, how would Arik Soong have been able to do that in prison?  Unless he did it during his exile on that planet with the Augment children, but you would think there's some evidence of that.

#18 RJDiogenes

RJDiogenes

    Idealistic Cynic

  • Demigod
  • 14,323 posts

Posted 20 March 2020 - 07:29 PM

View PostFarscapeOne, on 19 March 2020 - 08:27 PM, said:

Well, the Iconian homeworld WAS littered with craters and destruction.  There was just the one gateway that Picard found, and it was destroyed.  
Oh, was it?  It's been a long time since I've seen it.

View PostCardie, on 20 March 2020 - 12:17 AM, said:

I agree with RJ that Chekhov's golem might be a home for Picard's consciousness, although I am not keen on any "live eternally as an android" scenarios.  
It could well be a red herring, but there has been some foreshadowing.  At least twice-- once with the XBs and once with the Synths-- Picard has promised to be an advocate for them in the Federation.  The best way to accomplish that is by being the best of both worlds.
Please visit The RJDiogenes Store. Posted Image   And my Gallery. Posted Image And my YouTube Page. Posted Image And read Trunkards. Posted Image  And then there's my Heroes Essays.  Posted Image

#19 Christopher

Christopher
  • Demigod
  • 33,063 posts

Posted 20 March 2020 - 07:49 PM

View PostRJDiogenes, on 20 March 2020 - 07:29 PM, said:

The best way to accomplish that is by being the best of both worlds.

Picard tried that once and didn't like it.
"You don't use science to show that you're right, you use science to become right." -- xkcd

"The first man to raise a fist is the man who's run out of ideas." -- "H. G. Wells," Time After Time


Written Worlds -- My homepage and blog
Patreon Page -- Featuring reviews and original fiction
Facebook Author Page

#20 Omega

Omega

    Maktel shcree lotak meta setak Oz!

  • Moderator
  • 4,032 posts

Posted 20 March 2020 - 10:20 PM

Well, I guess we know where V'ger ended up now...


0 user(s) are browsing this forum

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users