Jump to content


Getting an "Insecure Connection" warning for Exisle? No worry

Details in this thread

STAR TREK: PICARD - S1, E9, "Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1"...


  • Please log in to reply
43 replies to this topic

#21 Orpheus

Orpheus

    I'm not the boss of you!

  • Administrator
  • 17,839 posts

Posted 20 March 2020 - 11:25 PM

Okay, I know I'll be wrong, but this is how I have fun, and how I get engaged in a series:

Suppose the Synthetic Alliance is (roughly) what we're told it is.

If the dozens/hundreds of Coppelians are willing to sacrifice literally billions of organics for their own survival, wouldn't that fail any logical and ethical test that a Union of Rational and Nearly (or Theoretically) Immortal, but Still Developing,  Beings should devise? Presumably, the Association's own existence is not at threat, so we can exclude existential panic.

Perhaps, just perhaps, the Association, recognizing that Organic races would build their own highest ideals of function into their Synths, recognize that Synthetic life would likely pose a PHYSICAL threat to its creators long before it meets, much less exceeds, the best of its progenitor's ethics, empathy, or other cultural traits -- which would not be uniform or universal: IDIC, anyone?

The species I know rarely get everything right on the first draft -- or whatever draft is a first actually functional/working prototype.

I'd like to believe that a Synth Alliance would arrive and think "What a mess these Organics are! But if you'd kill bilions of them, to save hundreds of you, you're not even at their level. See you at your next iteration (or ten)". They wouldn't have to destroy the Organics (or the Coppelians), just "educate" the originating organics about the potential of autonomous synths, and perhaps offer some guidance on safely developing them.

Then again, as a parent I'm obviously too emotional/irrational to grasp the guidance/development of surprisingly novel variants of my lifeform/culture. How do my fellow parents feel about my theory?

Edited to add: Since Cardie beat me to the proper origin of "Capellius" (In an earlier thread, I'd cited (in spoilers) the ballet, which I knew was based on a German work, but despite my love of German literature, I didn't look it up and read it), the title of this episode refers to :"Et in Arcadia ego" ("and [even] in Arcadia, I [am]". Arcadia is generally taken to be an idyllic utopia" and "I" s generally taken to mean Death

Edited by Orpheus, 20 March 2020 - 11:44 PM.
: Added Title reference


#22 FarscapeOne

FarscapeOne
  • Islander
  • 4,045 posts

Posted 21 March 2020 - 12:00 AM

One thing everyone has overlooked...

This is the second time an xB calls Picard Locutus in a 'long time, good to see you' way.  And Locutus, if memory serves me, was a word that meant speaker, or something like representative of a group.

Maybe THAT foreshadows Picard's path into being an android.

#23 Christopher

Christopher
  • Demigod
  • 33,100 posts

Posted 21 March 2020 - 06:00 AM

View PostFarscapeOne, on 21 March 2020 - 12:00 AM, said:

One thing everyone has overlooked...

This is the second time an xB calls Picard Locutus in a 'long time, good to see you' way.  And Locutus, if memory serves me, was a word that meant speaker, or something like representative of a group.

Maybe THAT foreshadows Picard's path into being an android.

It's nothing we haven't seen before, with Hugh in "I, Borg." Borg are a hive mind. Former drones would recognize Locutus as a lost part of themselves. That's the only explanation needed. It's not being "overlooked," it's just easily understood and doesn't require special attention.
"You don't use science to show that you're right, you use science to become right." -- xkcd

"The first man to raise a fist is the man who's run out of ideas." -- "H. G. Wells," Time After Time


Written Worlds -- My homepage and blog
Patreon Page -- Featuring reviews and original fiction
Facebook Author Page

#24 FarscapeOne

FarscapeOne
  • Islander
  • 4,045 posts

Posted 21 March 2020 - 08:55 AM

I get that, and normally I'd agree.  If it happened just that once earlier this year, I can buy that.  But it happened again in the first part of a season finale?  It didn't need to be done here again, unless it is an element that is important.  Or a red herring.

I just find it odd, that's all.

Edited by FarscapeOne, 21 March 2020 - 08:55 AM.


#25 Christopher

Christopher
  • Demigod
  • 33,100 posts

Posted 21 March 2020 - 09:10 AM

View PostFarscapeOne, on 21 March 2020 - 08:55 AM, said:

I get that, and normally I'd agree.  If it happened just that once earlier this year, I can buy that.  But it happened again in the first part of a season finale?  It didn't need to be done here again, unless it is an element that is important.  Or a red herring.

It would be stranger if it didn't happen. It's the natural reaction of an ex-drone to seeing Picard.

Besides, one of the drawbacks of the modern overuse of serialization is that it's created this mentality that everything that happens in a story has to be a setup for some future plot twist or surprise revelation. Not everything is about plot! A lot of things are about character and emotion. Picard's assimilation by the Borg traumatized him deeply. We saw a few episodes ago how terrifying it was for him to be back on a Borg cube, to be addressed as Locutus. But then Hugh showed him how the xBs were coping and being liberated, and Picard was able to begin seeing something positive in their community. Now an xB addresses him as Locutus and (IIRC) he doesn't act threatened or offended by the reminder. Maybe he's even begun to accept it. Maybe it's about the character arc of a man coming to terms with a painful part of his past, rather than just the latest plot twist in the latest huge conspiracy plot. Not everything in fiction is plot. People have forgotten that.
"You don't use science to show that you're right, you use science to become right." -- xkcd

"The first man to raise a fist is the man who's run out of ideas." -- "H. G. Wells," Time After Time


Written Worlds -- My homepage and blog
Patreon Page -- Featuring reviews and original fiction
Facebook Author Page

#26 FarscapeOne

FarscapeOne
  • Islander
  • 4,045 posts

Posted 21 March 2020 - 10:21 AM

Valid points about current storytelling trends.

I wonder if anyone has ever done a study or some research into it... storytelling techniques of tv today vs past eras like Berman era STAR TREK or TOS.

All have their pros and cons, but I wonder what is the preferred one for everyone here.  Is it an age thing, where you are inclined to prefer the era you grew up in?  Or despite that, prefer the new arcing?

(Don't mean to veer off course of the episode, but this is fascinating.  Maybe someone more qualified can start a thread on this matter, as I'm not a professional writer.)

#27 Christopher

Christopher
  • Demigod
  • 33,100 posts

Posted 21 March 2020 - 11:01 AM

View PostFarscapeOne, on 21 March 2020 - 10:21 AM, said:

Is it an age thing, where you are inclined to prefer the era you grew up in?  Or despite that, prefer the new arcing?

Neither. The era I grew up in (the '70s and early '80s) was too episodic, and the present is too serialized. I prefer the middle ground we had in the '90s and early '00s, when individual episodes mostly told self-contained stories, but their events had a lasting impact on the continuity and character development, and some story threads, not all, were recurring and developed over the course of a season or more. That way you could have both strong, memorable individual episodes and strong, evolving continuity.
"You don't use science to show that you're right, you use science to become right." -- xkcd

"The first man to raise a fist is the man who's run out of ideas." -- "H. G. Wells," Time After Time


Written Worlds -- My homepage and blog
Patreon Page -- Featuring reviews and original fiction
Facebook Author Page

#28 FarscapeOne

FarscapeOne
  • Islander
  • 4,045 posts

Posted 21 March 2020 - 11:19 AM

I'm with you on that.  It's part of the reason why I am such a massive SUPERNATURAL fan.

#29 Cybersnark

Cybersnark

    NERV wants YOU!

  • Islander
  • 2,587 posts

Posted 21 March 2020 - 11:22 AM

I also think it's the same XB we saw earlier on the cube, who saw Picard and reacted in surprise, blurting out "Locutus" (exactly as he did here, in fact). Poor guy just isn't in the loop anymore, nobody tells him anything.

View PostChristopher, on 20 March 2020 - 06:34 AM, said:

Maybe that was always the end goal of his android project, which was why he gave his androids his face.
That's the stance taken in David Mack's Cold Equations trilogy. It's the first thing I thought of when I saw Soong, but that's clearly not Data in there.
"Hilarity ensues." --Seamus Harper

#30 FarscapeOne

FarscapeOne
  • Islander
  • 4,045 posts

Posted 21 March 2020 - 12:07 PM

View PostCybersnark, on 21 March 2020 - 11:22 AM, said:

I also think it's the same XB we saw earlier on the cube, who saw Picard and reacted in surprise, blurting out "Locutus" (exactly as he did here, in fact). Poor guy just isn't in the loop anymore, nobody tells him anything.

View PostChristopher, on 20 March 2020 - 06:34 AM, said:

Maybe that was always the end goal of his android project, which was why he gave his androids his face.
That's the stance taken in David Mack's Cold Equations trilogy. It's the first thing I thought of when I saw Soong, but that's clearly not Data in there.

I was thinking it was the same xB, but it was so quick both times I just thought I was imagining it.  Glad to see I wasn't the only one who thought this.

#31 Orpheus

Orpheus

    I'm not the boss of you!

  • Administrator
  • 17,839 posts

Posted 21 March 2020 - 01:46 PM

I, too, thought it might be the same guy, but I checked:
There is barely a vague similarity in appearance (even allowing for lighting/angle/expression/etc.).
Though our first glimpse was brief and ill-lighted, my mistake horrifies me. People have been convicted on such brief eyewitness glimpses. (Remember that when you're on jury duty!)

Their scars are very different, and the primary scarring was on opposite sides. Their voices were VERY different.

Locutus1.JPG
Locutus2.JPG

#32 FarscapeOne

FarscapeOne
  • Islander
  • 4,045 posts

Posted 21 March 2020 - 02:50 PM

Thanks, Orpheus.

#33 Cardie

Cardie

    I'm a very *good* tailor

  • Administrator
  • 22,651 posts

Posted 21 March 2020 - 11:03 PM

I thought that both times the xBs delivered the greeting in a sort of "Locutus! how's it hanging?" way that was hilarious, because when they were part of the Collective, no one would talk in that manner.

Is it possible that the Borg are members of the Synth Protective Guild? Probably not but it would be a hoot for the final confrontation to involve Cube vs. Cube.
Nothing succeeds like excess.

#34 RJDiogenes

RJDiogenes

    Idealistic Cynic

  • Demigod
  • 14,512 posts

Posted 22 March 2020 - 05:40 PM

View PostOrpheus, on 20 March 2020 - 11:25 PM, said:

I'd like to believe that a Synth Alliance would arrive and think "What a mess these Organics are! But if you'd kill bilions of them, to save hundreds of you, you're not even at their level. See you at your next iteration (or ten)". They wouldn't have to destroy the Organics (or the Coppelians), just "educate" the originating organics about the potential of autonomous synths, and perhaps offer some guidance on safely developing them.  
I would be psyched if this happened, because it would be a very TOS outcome.  The odds of it happening in the current Zeitgeist are not good, though.

View PostFarscapeOne, on 21 March 2020 - 12:00 AM, said:

This is the second time an xB calls Picard Locutus in a 'long time, good to see you' way.  And Locutus, if memory serves me, was a word that meant speaker, or something like representative of a group.

Maybe THAT foreshadows Picard's path into being an android.  
I did notice that, and it definitely had the feel of foreshadowing about it.

View PostFarscapeOne, on 21 March 2020 - 10:21 AM, said:

All have their pros and cons, but I wonder what is the preferred one for everyone here.  Is it an age thing, where you are inclined to prefer the era you grew up in?  Or despite that, prefer the new arcing?  
It's basically the difference between novels and short stories, and both are valid forms. Some characters or universes work better with one or the other, and some work well in both. Wellman's Silver John and Asimov's Black Widowers are best in the short story format, while Niven's Ringworld and McDevitt's Priscilla Hutchins need to be novels. In TV land, Babylon 5 could not be episodic without altering the fundamental nature of what it is (although the spinoffs were fine), and Buffy works well with the story-per-season format.  Star Trek, by nature, should be episodic, although they have played with arcs more-or-less successfully. But one of the reasons that TOS had such a long-lasting impact on the culture is that it has a multitude of punchy morality tales, a genuine modern mythology.  It should always revert to that.

View PostCardie, on 21 March 2020 - 11:03 PM, said:

Is it possible that the Borg are members of the Synth Protective Guild? Probably not but it would be a hoot for the final confrontation to involve Cube vs. Cube.  
It would be funny if they were, but didn't know it until they were activated.  Or if they were originally created to be the SPG's enforcement brigade, but the SPG died off and the Borg devolved into what they are when unsupervised.
Please visit The RJDiogenes Store. Posted Image   And my Gallery. Posted Image And my YouTube Page. Posted Image And read Trunkards. Posted Image  And then there's my Heroes Essays.  Posted Image

#35 Christopher

Christopher
  • Demigod
  • 33,100 posts

Posted 22 March 2020 - 07:24 PM

View PostRJDiogenes, on 22 March 2020 - 05:40 PM, said:

Babylon 5 could not be episodic without altering the fundamental nature of what it is (although the spinoffs were fine)

Babylon 5 was episodic. It just wasn't exclusively episodic, because episodic and serial storytelling are not binary absolutes, but ingredients that coexist in different proportions in many, many works of series fiction. B5 was both episodic and serialized: Each episode (for the most part) told a self-contained story that began and ended in the same hour, but the events of a given episode would be revisited and advanced in later episodes and would have an impact on the overall status quo.

A serial, by strict definition, is a narrative in which any single story is told over multiple installments. In a truly serialized show, if you had plots A, B, C, and D all going on, then any single episode would incrementally advance all four plots simultaneously, and every plot would take multiple consecutive episodes to resolve. But in Babylon 5, you'd get an episode about plot A, then an episode about plot B, then one about plot C, then maybe one revisiting A while telling plot D, then one revisiting plot C, then one revisiting plot B, and so on. It was an episodic serial rather than a pure serial. There were multiple ongoing plots, but they were packaged in discrete units that were complete in themselves while still adding up to a larger whole. The balance did shift in a more serial direction later on, especially where the character arcs were concerned, but there were still plenty of relatively self-contained episodes with their own distinct identity rather than just being undifferentiated parts of the mass,  For instance, "Intersections in Real Time" was part of a continuing arc involving Sheridan's capture and imprisonment, yet it was also a standalone story in its way, distinct from the episodes around it and telling a complete, self-contained arc about Sheridan and his interrogator, from beginning to end within a single hour. That's episodic storytelling within serialized storytelling. The two techniques are not mutually exclusive.
"You don't use science to show that you're right, you use science to become right." -- xkcd

"The first man to raise a fist is the man who's run out of ideas." -- "H. G. Wells," Time After Time


Written Worlds -- My homepage and blog
Patreon Page -- Featuring reviews and original fiction
Facebook Author Page

#36 Orpheus

Orpheus

    I'm not the boss of you!

  • Administrator
  • 17,839 posts

Posted 24 March 2020 - 11:55 PM

After thinking about it, I still have so many questions that everyone else seems to be at peace over.

For example:

1) Did Alton precede B4/Lore/Data or come after them. My initial reaction on seeing him was that the strength of the resemblance (Picard: "I feel as if I'm looking at Data") suggested that Alton came first -- that he grew up with his father obsessed with (and favoring) his androids over his random-genetic-draw (and hence somewhat unpredictable-looking and -acting) son: "My father had me, but he created Data -- a fact he never let me forget." While it's entirely possible that B4/Lore/Data were physically modeled on their creator Noonian Soong, whom Alton merely happened to strongly resemble, I think the family dynamics of an obsessed scientist (ultimately why Juliana left him) who was a poor father --perhaps disappointed in his son, perhaps secretly disappointed in himself, for having the relationship he had hoped for-- and creating, in front of his son, more malleable copies. On one hand: "See how I love you! I base my life's work on you."; on the other hand: "Why can't you be more like my [idealized] creations?" Whether Alton came before or after, that dynamic would inevitably drive Alton away. I realize that violates TNG dialogue -- but that dialogue came from Soong himself and (later) the Android Juliana, whose memory could easily have been stripped of any recollection of his biological son.

Actually, WE KNOW android Juliana's memory was stripped of Alton. Noonian may have fudged his recounting, as dads (esp divorced) often do, but android Juliana clearly had no knowledge of a biological son

I think this sketch suffices. We know Noonian's semi-narcissistic nature--he was disappointed even in Data for not following exactly in his footsteps as a cyberneticist. (Ironically Alton came closer). Discuss.

2) Where did Alton/Maddox get the single positronic neuron from which the Fractal Neuronic Clones were created (I won't say "cloned": each pair was a distinctive creation, given "mind" from Data's "starter")

Data could  have spared a single positronic neuron for Maddox to study long ago, but not one word has suggested that this happened. Data is presumed to have been completely, unexpectedly, destroyed.

Interestingly, if Alton HAD been dysfunctionally taunted by his (even desperately well-meaning) father, it would explain why none of the Cappellians resembled the Soongs. Alton wouldn't want to do that.

3)... no that's enough for now. More tomorrow if I have time

#37 FarscapeOne

FarscapeOne
  • Islander
  • 4,045 posts

Posted 25 March 2020 - 06:31 AM

Perhaps I missed something, but why do they need to be made in pairs?

#38 Sci-Fi Girl

Sci-Fi Girl

    Help me save Dark Matter!

  • Islander
  • 5,065 posts

Posted 25 March 2020 - 06:57 AM

^ Because plot.

Or rather, Agnes said about the neuronic cloning: "the process results in pairs", with no further reason given.  :shrug:

SFG
"A song is like a picture of a bird in flight; the bird was moving before the picture was taken, and no doubt continued after."   - Pete Seeger

Pete Seeger's life was a picture of an idea in flight, and the idea will continue long after.  As long as there are people with goodness and courage in their hearts, the idea will continue forever.

Posted Image   Posted Image


Check out my music threads:

Beautiful Music: Folk, Acoustic, Traditional, and World

A Celebration of Song Lyrics, New and Old: Just the poetry  (to include those with different musical tastes than me)

When Sci Fi Actors Sing

#39 Christopher

Christopher
  • Demigod
  • 33,100 posts

Posted 25 March 2020 - 07:05 AM

View PostOrpheus, on 24 March 2020 - 11:55 PM, said:

While it's entirely possible that B4/Lore/Data were physically modeled on their creator Noonian Soong, whom Alton merely happened to strongly resemble, I think the family dynamics of an obsessed scientist (ultimately why Juliana left him) who was a poor father --perhaps disappointed in his son, perhaps secretly disappointed in himself, for having the relationship he had hoped for-- and creating, in front of his son, more malleable copies. On one hand: "See how I love you! I base my life's work on you."; on the other hand: "Why can't you be more like my [idealized] creations?" Whether Alton came before or after, that dynamic would inevitably drive Alton away.

I still say, given Soong's fondness for creating replicas in his image, that it's hard to believe Alton "merely happened" to resemble his father just as strongly -- not to mention his more distant ancestor Arik Soong. I wonder if there's more going on there. Or rather, I hope there's more going on there, because if it is just a coincidence, then it's just a silly gimmick to give Brent Spiner a new role and it kind of takes me out of the story. So I'd like there to be some actual story significance to the highly contrived resemblance.



Quote

2) Where did Alton/Maddox get the single positronic neuron from which the Fractal Neuronic Clones were created

I think it might actually have been one of B-4's neurons, with Data's memories downloaded into B-4's neural net. But it's entirely possible that Data provided a sample to Maddox at some point, since they were friends and correspondents for years while Maddox continued his research (as we know both from "Data's Day" and from Jurati's testimony to Picard).


Quote

(I won't say "cloned": each pair was a distinctive creation, given "mind" from Data's "starter")

If anything, that's probably a more accurate use of "clone" than its usual fictional usage. A clone, in the original sense of the word, is a new plant grown from a cutting of a living plant, as opposed to being grown from a fertilized seed. So growing new positronic neural networks from a neuron of Data's neural network is almost exactly analogous to cloning in the purest sense. Being identical is not required; organisms' growth is shaped by epigenetic and environmental factors as well as genetics, so the fictional conceit of clones being absolutely identical to their parents is just that, a fiction. Certainly there's no reason why a cloned offspring's personality should be identical to that of their parent, since they have different upbringings and life experiences; and in the case of androids, there's certainly no requirement for their faces or bodies to be identical, since it's only the neural net that's being cloned. (Presumably giving twinned bodies to the twinned brains is merely a conceit of the Coppelian designers.)
"You don't use science to show that you're right, you use science to become right." -- xkcd

"The first man to raise a fist is the man who's run out of ideas." -- "H. G. Wells," Time After Time


Written Worlds -- My homepage and blog
Patreon Page -- Featuring reviews and original fiction
Facebook Author Page

#40 Sci-Fi Girl

Sci-Fi Girl

    Help me save Dark Matter!

  • Islander
  • 5,065 posts

Posted 25 March 2020 - 07:52 AM

View PostChristopher, on 25 March 2020 - 07:05 AM, said:


Quote

(I won't say "cloned": each pair was a distinctive creation, given "mind" from Data's "starter")

If anything, that's probably a more accurate use of "clone" than its usual fictional usage. A clone, in the original sense of the word, is a new plant grown from a cutting of a living plant, as opposed to being grown from a fertilized seed. So growing new positronic neural networks from a neuron of Data's neural network is almost exactly analogous to cloning in the purest sense.

Oh is THAT why all the plant references??!!?!?  

They are all "cuttings" from Data!  It all makes so much sense now!  :howling: :clap:

SFG
"A song is like a picture of a bird in flight; the bird was moving before the picture was taken, and no doubt continued after."   - Pete Seeger

Pete Seeger's life was a picture of an idea in flight, and the idea will continue long after.  As long as there are people with goodness and courage in their hearts, the idea will continue forever.

Posted Image   Posted Image


Check out my music threads:

Beautiful Music: Folk, Acoustic, Traditional, and World

A Celebration of Song Lyrics, New and Old: Just the poetry  (to include those with different musical tastes than me)

When Sci Fi Actors Sing


0 user(s) are browsing this forum

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users