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What NOT to perform in your HS halftime show

Texas HS Halftime show 2003

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#1 D'Monix

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Posted 02 October 2003 - 11:26 PM

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DALLAS -- A high school band director has apologized for a halftime performance that included "Deutschland Uber Alles," the anthem closely associated with Adolf Hitler, and a student running across the field with a Nazi flag.

Charles Grissom, Paris High School's band director, said his intention was to have a historical performance featuring the flags and music of the nations that fought during World War II.

The show, titled "Visions of World War II," nearly caused a melee at Friday night's football game at Dallas' Hillcrest High School.

"We were booed," Grissom said Monday. "We had things thrown at us. We were cursed."

Paris' assistant coaches were even targeted as they made their way through the bleachers to a press box after halftime.

"The assistant coaches ... got blasted, cursed," said Brent Southworth, Paris' head football coach.

Grissom said he never intended to offend anyone, and he apologized repeatedly.

"We had an error in judgment," Grissom told The Dallas Morning News in an interview published Tuesday. "Our intent was never to cause any harm."

The show was performed in Paris, about 100 miles northeast of Dallas, a week earlier after the homecoming game against Athens.

The band, which began working on the show in August, planned to perform it at the University Interscholastic League contest Oct. 15.

The show also includes the flags and music of France, Britain, Japan and the United States. The flags were raised in intervals that corresponded with the music of the nations. An announcement over loudspeakers before the performance explained the school was trying to do a "historical, accurate depiction of the event."

Mark Briskman, regional director for the Anti-Defamation League, said his organization received many calls and e-mails expressing shock "that in 2003, this type of insensitivity would occur."

"This can serve as an educational tool that there are certain tools and certain symbols that still carry ... an amount of hurt," Briskman said. "It was a mistake, and they've apologized for it, and we basically accept their apology."

Copyright © 2003, The Associated Press

This was, well just not too smart IMO...

D'

#2 Godeskian

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 01:28 AM

maybe not smart, but it was fair

Germany DID fight in WWII
'Deutschland Uber Alles' was their music

War isn't just fought by the winners, and those who lost deserve to be treated with some decency, as the average footsoldier had no more influence in his masters political decisions as does a soldier today.

The german soldiers were following the same orders, probably had the same feelings of duty and patriotism, played the same card games in their mess tents, and had the same wives and kids as soldiers from any other nation and the fact that they lost should not mean that they don't deserve to be respected as people, if nothing else.

I had a good bitch aginst the british for snubbing the german survivors at a 'survivors of WWII' day a few years back, where a small group fo German soldiers was told to sodd off because they were the 'bad guys'

I find this a very depressing story, and i don't like what it says about the students that did the hollering and jeering and cursing.

Edited by Godeskian, 03 October 2003 - 01:29 AM.


#3 G1223

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 07:02 AM

Well I am sure any jewish student had no right at all to feel offended. Basically the showing of the nazi flag was the basic part I find offensive.

I'll go with D here and say someone drank a bottle of liquid no brain.
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#4 Shalamar

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 07:04 AM

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"Deutschland Uber Alles," the anthem closely associated with Adolf Hitler, and a student running across the field with a Nazi flag.

I think the running across the field with the Nazi flag was the problem...

What if they had used the German national flag, NOT the flag unfortunately associated with the Nazi Party

What if they had used another German National song, instead of that one?

Surely the one so closely linked to Hitler is not the German National Anthem  (I am asking as I do not know )

#5 G1223

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 07:15 AM

Well my understanding is that Germany has had at least three national athems. One goes back to Pre-Keiser days and then D.U.A. and finally the athem of the current republic.  Also this was done at football gamewhich means parents were presant and maybe grandparents who might have served in the military. and to those folks that is the son of the enemy. Fair minded or not it is the truth.
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#6 Rhys

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 08:49 AM

It sounds like this was done entirely with music and flags, no commentary.

Which makes it understandable if people misinterpreted the intent...

It's important to know your audience.

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#7 Godeskian

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 09:34 AM

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Well I am sure any jewish student had no right at all to feel offended. Basically the showing of the nazi flag was the basic part I find offensive.

Problem with that is that it is holding ones grandfathers crimes against their grandchildren. The Jewish student didn't go through WW2, neither did the german youth of today, and I am personally unwilling to start blaming the Nazi's descendants for what they did. Many of those descendents are undoubtably as horrified as the Jewish student might be at what their forebears did, but to say that from now untill the end of time people have the right to seek revenge for it is wrong.

But it's not my place to say that people can't be offended for their parents or grandparents sake. That is a choice they have to make. Speaking as someone who lost his grandfather to lung damage suffered in WW2 (even if he didnt' die till much later), i'm done being offended by people's tastelessness regarding it.

As an aside as well, the swastika was a Native American symbol denoting good many centuries before it was perverted into a symbol for Nazi Germany. While what they did was atrocious, the symbol of the Swastika can probably never again be associated with anything good, and I regret that

WWII was 60 years ago, and I have a great deal of respect for the feelings for those who fought, and those who lived through it. At the same time I will never agree to people hating other people, or symbols they use, for things they did not do.

Blame Nazi germany yes, blame the folks trying to put on a half time show? sorry, don't really see the point of that.

#8 Palisades

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 09:57 AM

I think that since anthems and flags of Britain, the United States, and France were also featured, the context should make it clear that the band was not trying to glorify the Nazis or express approval of their policies.

Here's another article, which contains the following significant information on the performance:

Quote

It was performed at a Dallas high school Friday, which was also Rosh Hashana, the start of the Jewish new year and one of the holiest days on the Jewish calendar.
This probably explains at least some of the offense caused by the waving of the Nazi flag and playing of the Nazi anthem.
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#9 Drew

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 10:33 AM

Godeskian, on Oct 3 2003, 09:34 AM, said:

Blame Nazi germany yes, blame the folks trying to put on a half time show? sorry, don't really see the point of that.
I do. What the hell were they thinking? No one in their right mind would consider the prominent display of a Nazi flag at a public event to be an innocent act.

Quote

As an aside as well, the swastika was a Native American symbol denoting good many centuries before it was perverted into a symbol for Nazi Germany. While what they did was atrocious, the symbol of the Swastika can probably never again be associated with anything good, and I regret that

I don't regret it one bit.

And I don't think the Nazis stole the symbol from Native Americans. I've never heard that particular bit of information. Can you back that up, please? I'm unwilling to accept that at face value.
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#10 Palisades

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 10:47 AM

^ So if they are displaying the flags of major powers in WWII, they should leave out the Nazi flag? Or are you saying that they shouldn't do a display of the WWII powers' flags in the first place?
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#11 Godeskian

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 10:49 AM

Drew, on Oct 3 2003, 04:33 PM, said:

I don't regret it one bit.

And I don't think the Nazis stole the symbol from Native Americans. I've never heard that particular bit of information. Can you back that up, please? I'm unwilling to accept that at face value.
You could be right,

They could have stolen it from China, England, Greece, India, The Native Americans or a whole host of other people.

Drew, the Swastika is over 3000 years old, it predates Nazi germany by a hell of a lot of time.

http://history1900s....t/aa120699a.htm

first link on a google search

Quote

The word "swastika" comes from the Sanskrit svastika - "su" meaning "good," "asti" meaning "to be," and "ka" as a suffix.

Until the Nazis used this symbol, the swastika was used by many cultures throughout the past 3,000 years to represent life, sun, power, strength, and good luck.

or
http://www.locksley....96/swastick.htm

For a history of the symbol

Quote

The Swasticka has been called by many names:


Swasticka: Sanscrit "su" meaning "good" and "asti" meaning "to be"
Cross Cramponned: English heraldic term relating to angle-irons (crampons)
Cross Gammadion: Greek, pertaining to the Greek letter "G" or "Gamma" (it looks like an inverted Roman alphabet "L".)
Cross of St. Bridget: Ireland
Crux Dissimulata: Latin "Cross Dissimulated," used as a Christian symbol by the early Christians to avoid persecution. (see below)
Hakenkreuz: German "hooked cross"
Jaina Cross: a swasticka-like symbol of the Jains of India.
Pramantha: Brahmin (supposedly as some sort of fire-making tool, though never having seen one used as such I can't figure out how.)

I have been aware of the other meanings of the swastika for almost as long as i've been aware of Nazi Germany, and it's history, it's meanings should not be buried under the idiotic theory that the Nazi's get to use it exclusively simply because they are the most famous for having done so.

It had real meaning to people for millenia, and it was almost always a positive connotation, and only the acts of one nation turned it into something evil.

If you want more links, i will happily provide them.

#12 Rhys

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 11:01 AM

Drew, on Oct 3 2003, 11:33 AM, said:

And I don't think the Nazis stole the symbol from Native Americans.
No more than the Japanese "stole" the circle from any other culture for their flag.

The swastika shape is a pretty simple variant on the cross-shape (which is used frequently in art and decoration even outside cultures where it has religious significance).

It just hasn't been particularly popular over the past 50-60 years.

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#13 Drew

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 11:24 AM

QuantumFlux, on Oct 3 2003, 10:47 AM, said:

^ So if they are displaying the flags of major powers in WWII, they should leave out the Nazi flag?
Context is everything.  Displaying a Nazi flag as part of a halftime show is an astonishingly stupid idea. You've got a stadium, a rally, . . . and a Nazi flag waving around?  :wacko:
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#14 Palisades

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 11:29 AM

Drew, on Oct 3 2003, 11:24 AM, said:

QuantumFlux, on Oct 3 2003, 10:47 AM, said:

^ So if they are displaying the flags of major powers in WWII, they should leave out the Nazi flag?
Context is everything.  Displaying a Nazi flag as part of a halftime show is an astonishingly stupid idea. You've got a stadium, a rally, . . . and a Nazi flag waving around?  :wacko:
That's an evasive response.
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#15 Drew

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 11:33 AM

QuantumFlux, on Oct 3 2003, 11:29 AM, said:

Drew, on Oct 3 2003, 11:24 AM, said:

QuantumFlux, on Oct 3 2003, 10:47 AM, said:

^ So if they are displaying the flags of major powers in WWII, they should leave out the Nazi flag?
Context is everything.  Displaying a Nazi flag as part of a halftime show is an astonishingly stupid idea. You've got a stadium, a rally, . . . and a Nazi flag waving around?  :wacko:
That's an evasive response.
Actually, like most of my responses, it's a response based on time constraints. :cool: The short answer is yes, given the context.

Now if this were a museum display . . .
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#16 Godeskian

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 12:04 PM

Drew, on Oct 3 2003, 05:24 PM, said:

QuantumFlux, on Oct 3 2003, 10:47 AM, said:

^ So if they are displaying the flags of major powers in WWII, they should leave out the Nazi flag?
Context is everything.  Displaying a Nazi flag as part of a halftime show is an astonishingly stupid idea. You've got a stadium, a rally, . . . and a Nazi flag waving around?  :wacko:
Why,

this is the perfect context,

they weren't waving the flags of the 'winners' or the 'good guys' they were waving the flags of the major powers of World War 2, and germany was one of those major powers, and the entire reason for their to BE a world war 2.

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#17 Drew

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 12:13 PM

Godeskian, on Oct 3 2003, 12:04 PM, said:

Drew, on Oct 3 2003, 05:24 PM, said:

QuantumFlux, on Oct 3 2003, 10:47 AM, said:

^ So if they are displaying the flags of major powers in WWII, they should leave out the Nazi flag?
Context is everything.  Displaying a Nazi flag as part of a halftime show is an astonishingly stupid idea. You've got a stadium, a rally, . . . and a Nazi flag waving around?  :wacko:
Why,

this is the perfect context.
Uh, no. And I really don't care what the swastika was intended to symbolize in the distant past. Today there's only one thing it symbolizes.
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#18 Godeskian

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 12:16 PM

i'm sorry Drew, but I don't agree. and I hope we can agree to disagree with the Swastika, before we drag this thread completely off topic

To some of us, it is still a a symbol of sun, and good, corrupted by one twisted little man.

I have no doubt that in time, Hitler and his desecration of the symbol will be forgotten, and the symbol will remain.

It was appropriate as Germany was a major military power in WW2 and THAT was what they were representing with the flags.

Unless we are back to punishing people for what their elders did.

Edited by Godeskian, 03 October 2003 - 12:16 PM.

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#19 Drew

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 12:22 PM

Godeskian, on Oct 3 2003, 12:16 PM, said:

Unless we are back to punishing people for what their elders did.
It has nothing to do with punishing people for what their elders did. I don't know how that idea applies.

And excuse me if I don't buy the idea that anyone seriously accepts the swastika as a symbol of good. I mean, you can try to redeem it if you like, but it's not going to happen. Not in 200 years.
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#20 Godeskian

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 12:24 PM

So 3000 years of it being a positive thing gets tarnished in five years? and nothing can redeem that

sorry, don't buy it

and i'm sorry Drew, but this isn't a topic i particularly enjoy debating, so i will back out of the thread and leave the field to you

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