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What NOT to perform in your HS halftime show

Texas HS Halftime show 2003

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#21 Drew

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 12:30 PM

Godeskian, on Oct 3 2003, 12:24 PM, said:

So 3000 years of it being a positive thing
I'm not sure I believe that either.

Quote

gets tarnished in five years? and nothing can redeem that.

Time and distance. But LOTS AND LOTS of time and distance.

Quote

and i'm sorry Drew, but this isn't a topic i particularly enjoy debating, so i will back out of the thread and leave the field to you

Why? I mean, what's to debate?
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#22 Godeskian

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 12:33 PM

and there you have the reason.

You aren't willing to debate this, you aren't willing to accept possible alternatives to your own thinking on this

you want more proof of the age of the swastika ? did you even glance at the links i already provided? do you need more of them?

You asked for proof, i provided it, and you say you don't believe it,

well, then there really is nothing to discuss if even proof won't sway you

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#23 Rhys

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 12:48 PM

Godeskian, on Oct 3 2003, 01:24 PM, said:

So 3000 years of it being a positive thing gets tarnished in five years? and nothing can redeem that
Unfortunately, yes.  People are more willing to accept/remember negative things than positive ones.  It may not be "right" or "fair", but it's how people are.

Take a look at the "Entertainment" magazines, TV shows, etc., and count how many "Actor celebrates 10 years of happy marriage" stories you see vs. divorce & break-ups.  :(

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#24 Drew

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 12:51 PM

Godeskian, on Oct 3 2003, 12:33 PM, said:

you want more proof of the age of the swastika ? did you even glance at the links i already provided?
Yeah, I did. And can I say I'm a little more than freaked out right now. I had no idea there was such a thing as a "Friends of the Swastika Web Ring." (Which, incidentally, appears to be run by THIS GUY.) And what the heck is THIS?

The links sent me on an interesting trip through the web's netherworld. I'm beginning to worry.

Edited by Drew, 03 October 2003 - 01:05 PM.

"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#25 Godeskian

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 12:55 PM

Quote

Yeah, I did. And can I say I'm a little more than freaked out right now. I had no idea there was such a thing as a "Friends of the Swastika Web Ring." And what the heck is THIS?

The links sent me on an interesting trip through the web's netherworld. I'm beginning to worry.

notice the webring is for the 'non-nazi' websites regarding the swastika?

or did you just look at the topic and decide it was pro-nazi

and i won't justify the naked banjo website, but that sort of stuff is hardly swastika related

and fer crying out loud, i'm out of this thread for good now.

Edited by Godeskian, 03 October 2003 - 01:00 PM.

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#26 Drew

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 01:00 PM

Godeskian, on Oct 3 2003, 12:55 PM, said:

notice the webring is for the 'non-nazi' websites regarding the swastika?

or did you just look at the topic and decide it was pro-nazi
Oh, yeah. I caught that. The author of one of those sites made it clear he wanted nothing to do with Neo-Nazi stuff, but I'm still freaked out. Why all this sturm und drang over the swastika? And checking out some of the ancillary links, why do I sense this weird neo-pagan anti-gun control connection? It's like the New Age Survivalists club. At least two of these pro-swastika sites kindly point me to a Satanist website. Then there's the carbon atom/Christ connection. Yeah, okay . . . hitting my "back" button now . . . :wacko:

Edited by Drew, 03 October 2003 - 01:24 PM.

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#27 Drew

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 01:17 PM

Rabbit trails . . .

The fact of the matter is that this was not a Buddhist swastika, a Hindu swastika, or a Native American swastika being waved about during halftime. This was a Nazi swastika. That simple fact can't be denied.
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#28 GiGi

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 01:48 PM

Drew, the Swastika has been used by many cultures throughout the ages... Buddhists, Native Americans  and more.  It is a symbol just like the cross or five pointed star.  

If you would look at the Swastika closely you can see two versions.  One the arms go in one direction and in another the opposite direction.  One version is to represent a creative cycle the other the destructive cycle.  Both of these are part of nature and represented in the two Swastikas.  Hitler knowing full well the power of symbolism used the destructive cycle Swastika for his symbol.  No doubt as he was butchering thousands of people he focused the intensity of that act into his symbol (you know, like black magic)  That is mostly likely why it is so charged today.

And on the subject of the cross, it is as charged to me at times as the Swastika is to others.  As a high school student I was obesessed with the witch trials both in Europe and in America, the trials of the Inquisition too.  The horrors that I read about that were performed under and upheld cross are as awful as what the Nazis did under the Swastika.  

It is very human to have strong reactions to things like these.  But I feel it is also important to look deeper, to find more understanding of these situations so they don't happen again.
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#29 Drew

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 02:06 PM

GiGi, on Oct 3 2003, 01:48 PM, said:

Drew, the Swastika has been used by many cultures throughout the ages... Buddhists, Native Americans  and more.  It is a symbol just like the cross or five pointed star.
Yes, I read all about that on ManWoman's site. :cool:

So, what do you think about waving around a Nazi flag at a half-time event? Do you think the audience said to themselves "Ah, look! It's the auspicious energy at the center of life!" or do you think they said to themselves "Hmmm. That's a Nazi flag."

Edited by Drew, 03 October 2003 - 02:07 PM.

"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#30 gadfly

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 02:06 PM

Quote

It is very human to have strong reactions to things like these. But I feel it is also important to look deeper, to find more understanding of these situations so they don't happen again.

Agreed Gigi but a football game in unfamiliar terroritory with underage students part of your responsibility is not the time.  

The band director is either very young and inexperienced, rather stupid, or incredibly bull-headed.  Yes, I'm from Texas, and yes, I'm a former band geek who spent hours in the heat practicing on intricate routines to march to during football games. Our directors were very aware of audience expectations and would select pieces that were a bit more complicated but still crowd pleasers which is what you do at a football game.  We took a "chance" with a routine that featured blues music and us going down on one knee, taking off our hats and singing "oh yeah" to the crowd.  That was considered taking a chance because it wasn't the typical rah rah music (like Night on Bald Mountain  :sarcasm: ) typically played at games.  A football audience wants to be entertained not given a history lesson - they won't pay attention enough to interpret the symbolism and it doesn't suprise me in the least that it was misinterpreted.  It's likely that the only thing noticed was the Nazi flag going across the field and on that particular day to that particular audience it was considered an insult. Their routine might be a cool idea but it's the wrong context as Drew pointed out.

The kind of routine the band performed would be appropriate in competion, although still open to misinterpretation, but not at a game - particularly without the commentary. It might have gone over better with a commentary, and that's not difficult to do btw, so I'm not sure why they chose not to do so.  Was it wrong for them to make up and perform the routine? I don't think so but it would have been a better idea and easier on the students (the band members and I'm sure the director as he's likely to take quite a bit of heat from his superiors, parents, and his own community for this) to come up with a modified routine for the football crowd.

#31 GiGi

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 02:14 PM

Drew, Gadfly, I didn't mean to imply I thought it was okay to play Nazi music and wave Nazi flags at a half time show.

I was only speaking about the Swastika itself and nothing else.

As to the show... I would have to see it, but basically I would think it was very bad idea to do at a game.  If it was history it would be more appropriate in a theater piece with narration to interpret the subject correctly.
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#32 Rhea

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 02:22 PM

GiGi, on Oct 3 2003, 11:48 AM, said:

Drew, the Swastika has been used by many cultures throughout the ages... Buddhists, Native Americans  and more.  It is a symbol just like the cross or five pointed star. 

If you would look at the Swastika closely you can see two versions.  One the arms go in one direction and in another the opposite direction.  One version is to represent a creative cycle the other the destructive cycle.  Both of these are part of nature and represented in the two Swastikas.  Hitler knowing full well the power of symbolism used the destructive cycle Swastika for his symbol.  No doubt as he was butchering thousands of people he focused the intensity of that act into his symbol (you know, like black magic)  That is mostly likely why it is so charged today.
To add to what Gigi said, Hitler was an afficionado of the occult, and he undoubtedly was aware of the symbolism of the swastika he chose.
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#33 G1223

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 03:12 PM

As the 3000 yr history. It is a histroy that is in the background where in that 5 yr negative history it is in film (Both entertainment and historical)  it is in Literture and it has been protrayed for decades in the media as a symbol of hatred. It should be pointed out that the tradional symbol is also revesed from the nazi pattern ofcurrent useage.

Basically this was stupid to have done or were we expecting people to be happy and cheering for a symbol of racism and violence. Ask the Jews and the blacks that had run in's with nazi skinheads in the 70's to current day.

( I believe and will appoligze if I am off the mark of the time period that the nazi party was VERY small in the period after the war and most HATE crimes were committed by the KKK)
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#34 Shalamar

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 03:18 PM

Drew, I agree that it was at the very least very tasteless to present music and a symbol that ha UNHAPPILY become asociated with the Nazi at a half time show...

The Swastika, the flyflot, as it is some times termed is very much a sumbol of good and positive energies, for the Indians of the Plains, and other Native American Culters, it was their symbol of the Fly, which was a symbol of LIFE... the Skan, the energy in motion, the power that all life emits, and is a part of.  

And this symbol is still valid and in use to day...

Else where in the world  this symbol goes back in appearance and useage since at least 10,000 BC...

It has appeared on the oldest coinages of India, on images of Buddah in Japan, on Greek and Roman figurees of the Great Goddess...On artifacts dating from the 13th century BC onward it has been found in Asia MInor, Greece, China, Persia, Lybia, Scandinavia, Britian, and Iceland.

The Swstika was much used in medieval church decoratin and heraldry, and where it was known as the croix gammee

Yes Hitler did have a huge fascination with the Occult, and did take a potent symbol for good and life and turn it, in some eyes to evil, but the symbol has stood for good far longer than Hitlers blasphemy...

and if you can not see past a madmans machinations...

#35 Drew

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 03:58 PM

Shalamar, on Oct 3 2003, 03:18 PM, said:

and if you can not see past a madmans machinations...
The thing is that in the modern consciousness, the swastika stands for Nazi Germany and all its atrocities. That's why one cannot expect it to be used without causing (at the very least) raised eyebrows. And though some may try to reclaim it by trying to turn its widely perceived meaning into something less inflammatory, it's an effort that will surely fail. In fact, I see no point in trying. Neither did the 4 Native Americans tribes who, in February of 1940 as an act of protest against Nazi Germany, renounced it and banned its use by their tribes.
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#36 Shalamar

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 04:22 PM

That was then, this is now...
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#37 GiGi

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 04:24 PM

^ I do agree.  It really cannot be reclaimed, at least now.   And those who do risk backlashes.  But for me as a seeker of knowledge I still choose to study it's origins and remind people in and of itself it is not evil.
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#38 Bad Wolf

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 04:31 PM

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The thing is that in the modern consciousness, the swastika stands for Nazi Germany and all its atrocities. That's why one cannot expect it to be used without causing (at the very least) raised eyebrows.

What Drew said.  The Swastika TODAY (not just as a matter of history) is used as a symbol for organizations that back the very same white supremacist ideology as it symbolized in WW2.

To try and brush off its significance by saying "that was then, this is now" is to ignore the fact that TODAY (hell in this country even) there are groups that believe that the US should be purged of all influences that are not "white" and who use the Swastika as a banner.

If the guy wanted to showcase the powers of WW2 he should have announced it and flown the GERMAN flag.  Not the symbol of the goddamned Nazis.  There IS a difference.

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#39 jon3831

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 04:46 PM

^Thank you, Lil. I've been trying to write my response for a few hours, and you summed up what I wanted to say quite nicely.

Drew, you're absolutely right. The swastika in our modern conscious is a symbol of hate, terror, and oppression, and frankly, no amount of revisionist history is going to change that, at least not until the last World War II veteran and the last Holocaust survivor is dead and buried.
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#40 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 04 October 2003 - 12:25 AM

Some posters in this thread have mentioned punishing the descendents of the Nazis for what they did.  How do you think Germans today would feel about the Nazi flag being toted around at a football game?  Somehow I doubt they would approve of it very much.  You’re dragging around the most hated symbol of the darkest period of their history and showing it off.  Somehow I doubt many Germans today would find this display very proper.

Edited by CJ AEGIS, 04 October 2003 - 12:26 AM.

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