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What NOT to perform in your HS halftime show

Texas HS Halftime show 2003

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#41 Shalamar

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Posted 04 October 2003 - 02:41 AM

The last thing I would try and do is revise history, I have far too much respect what every one suffered through in WWII to do that ...

but it saddens me to see people ignoring centuries of positive for negative and villifying a symbol  because it was adopted by that monster and those who follow his putrid dreams

#42 Uncle Sid

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Posted 04 October 2003 - 02:49 AM

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Somehow I doubt many Germans today would find this display very proper.

Actually, I think the sale or display of Nazi symbols and such is actually illegal in Germany (outside of museums, I'd imagine).
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#43 Bad Wolf

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Posted 04 October 2003 - 03:09 AM

Shalamar, on Oct 4 2003, 12:41 AM, said:

The last thing I would try and do is revise history, I have far too much respect what every one suffered through in WWII to do that ...

but it saddens me to see people ignoring centuries of positive for negative and villifying a symbol  because it was adopted by that monster and those who follow his putrid dreams
I will admit that my own hatred (that's putting it mildly actually) for Nazis and everything they stand for colors what I'm about to say:

But I find it absolutely flabbergasting beyond any kind of belief that there are people who can even think this.

The symbol was used for what it was.  MILLIONS OF PEOPLE DIED as part of something that used the SWASTIKA as its symbol.

Too bad if you think it is sad that the symbol that DID and still DOES stand for what Hitler and his ilk did AND WOULD STILL DO IF THEY GOT THE CHANCE is villified.

Geez.

This is a no brainer.

Lil
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#44 Uncle Sid

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Posted 04 October 2003 - 03:16 AM

Yup, I'm with that.  I've seen Buddha statues with swastikas on them and even knowing that the symbol was borrowed by the Nazis, all I can think of is Nazis when I see it and wondering why they didn't file that off the statues....
I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it. - Jack Handey

#45 Lord Ravensburg

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Posted 04 October 2003 - 06:55 AM

In an ideal world perhaps the audience could have been objective about the presentation, but there is a fine line between idealism and naiveté.  

I find it incredibly ironic that a performance intended to put WWII in context would fail to take into account how its target audience would perceive an open display of the symbol of our country's most hated enemy.

#46 Godeskian

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Posted 04 October 2003 - 01:54 PM

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I will admit that my own hatred (that's putting it mildly actually) for Nazis and everything they stand for colors what I'm about to say:

But I find it absolutely flabbergasting beyond any kind of belief that there are people who can even think this.

I find it absolutely flabbergasting that one petty little man gets to pervert for all time, a three thousand year old symbol of good, and that no one cares.

Quote

Too bad if you think it is sad that the symbol that DID and still DOES stand for what Hitler and his ilk did AND WOULD STILL DO IF THEY GOT THE CHANCE is villified.

Too bad if you think it's good that the symbol that DID and stil DOES stand for vitality and goodness AND STILL DOES IF PEOPLE GIVE IT A CHANCE, is so lambasted by people.


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Geez.

This is a no brainer.

There i agree with you, just not with the thought behind it.

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#47 Bad Wolf

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Posted 04 October 2003 - 02:04 PM

Godeskian, on Oct 4 2003, 11:54 AM, said:

I find it absolutely flabbergasting that one petty little man gets to pervert for all time, a three thousand year old symbol of good, and that no one cares.
I see.  So the millions of people who died and whose families continue to suffer because of "one petty little man" mean nothing.  So the fact that what he did was one of the most monstrous chapters in human history means nothing because lord forbid that anyone actually CARE about what happened rather than worry about whether some tree hugging symbol is revered.

So the fact that in this world today, white supremacist group (oops, I guess that constitutes more than "one petty little man") continue to use this symbol to parade their "faith" around means nothing.

What is it they say about those who fail to learn from history?

I believe "doomed" is the word.

No thank you Gode but I will not be letting go of what this "one petty little man" did and how he symbolized it.  Nor will I be ignoring the fact that the swastika TODAY still stands for what it stood for in WW2.

You do as you please.

Lil

Edited by Una Salus Lillius, 04 October 2003 - 02:06 PM.

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#48 Godeskian

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Posted 04 October 2003 - 02:07 PM

Lil, i'm going to walk away from this thread here and now before I say something I regret,

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#49 Bad Wolf

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Posted 04 October 2003 - 02:10 PM

That's a very good idea.
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#50 G1223

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Posted 04 October 2003 - 03:34 PM

I feel really sorry for the symbol but I would not change my perspective on it becasue I have seen it used in my lifetime as a symbol of hatred and almost never as a symbol of peace. It's sad but it is also true.
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#51 the 'Hawk

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Posted 04 October 2003 - 04:00 PM

Shalamar, on Oct 4 2003, 03:41 AM, said:

but it saddens me to see people ignoring centuries of positive for negative and villifying a symbol  because it was adopted by that monster and those who follow his putrid dreams
The symbol here is the Nazi flag. It's red, sometimes with a Nordic cross of white with black trim, a white circle at its centre with a Hakenkreuz in black, tilted forty-five degrees.

That symbol is a different one than the swastika.

It both amuses and horrifies me that we're confusing the swastika with the flag of Nazi Germany. The swastika is one thing --it has its own, separate history.

I don't care if Hitler chose a giant naked ass for his symbol. The moment it becomes subsumed into something with a historical context of its own, the greater historical context takes precedence. Yes, there are giant naked asses everywhere, displayed with varying aspects of privacy. But to display them with the historical, rather than anatomical, connotation emphasized, makes the historical context --and any offense garnered from its display for historical purposes-- the responsibility of whoever displayed it.  

Those who would offer eloquent defense of the original meaning of the swastika are going to have a hard time making any meaningful inroads with me. Symbols mean absolutely nothing without context. I could have a cross or a star-and-crescent or a swastika or another symbol of my choice, any colour I like, any material I like. Unless I accept that the meanings therein are relative and subject in the eye of everyone who should behold it, then I have no right to offer it.

Symbolism is such an essential and necessary part of the human experience. I still fear red-headed women, because my first girlfriend, who treated me rather badly, had long red hair. Never mind that she was only one person-- she's turned me off on redheads for life. You might jest at that --"more for Rov", you might say, or something of an equal bent. You might remind me that redheads are, in fact, capable of good, that I'm generalizing unfairly against them based on one experience.

And in the process, while you laugh off how silly it sounds, for me to have a fear of redheads--- consider that the experience I had is one I would not want anyone to repeat.

And then consider that we're putting more weight on the intended use of a symbol than the historical reality of that symbol's subsumation into a greater culture with evil ends. The Nazi culture was genocidal, top to bottom. Am I being presumptuous and tarring all Germany with this brush? Hell no. The Nazi culture started the day the Nuremberg Race Laws were put into effect and died the day Hitler did.

But to parade around that vile, hated flag like World War II was the goddamned Olympics--- what in heaven's name were they thinking? Any veteran of that great conflict would be incensed to see his nation's flag, whatever among hundreds of nations he represented, standing side by side with that of the enemy.

There is a reason the flags of Germany, Japan and Italy have been modified since the war. The same reason that Russia no longer flies the hammer-and-sickle, the same reason China no longer flies that of the Kuomintang.

Because those flags died with the cultures and regimes they represented.

And they should goddamned well stay buried.

Swastikas and all.

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#52 Ilphi

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Posted 04 October 2003 - 04:56 PM

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Uncle Sid said:
Actually, I think the sale or display of Nazi symbols and such is actually illegal in Germany (outside of museums, I'd imagine).

I wouldn't even count on that. I've been to several German museums. I've been to Hitlers "Eagles Nest" in Austria - his birthday gift from his party - with the golden elevator shafts and commanding views of the mountin ranges, where Hitler entertained foreign guests and was an important part of his infastructure.

It's been turned into a café.

The only part that even *mentions* Hitler is the English guide book. It was only in a last desperate act that the whole place wasn't wiped off the face of the mountain, like most of the Nazi stuff that was destroyed.

You can't really blame them. It would be terrible if it became some sort of focal point for Neo-Nazism.

Edited by Ilphi, 04 October 2003 - 04:57 PM.

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#53 Bad Wolf

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Posted 04 October 2003 - 06:25 PM

'Hawk that was an AMAZING post.

Thank you thank you THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!

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#54 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 05 October 2003 - 03:26 AM

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Uncle Sid:  Actually, I think the sale or display of Nazi symbols and such is actually illegal in Germany (outside of museums, I'd imagine).
I think so too but didn’t want to say so because I’m not sure if those laws are still on the books.

Quote

Godeskian: I find it absolutely flabbergasting that one petty little man gets to pervert for all time, a three thousand year old symbol of good, and that no one cares.

I’ve heard Hitler described in many ways including several that took up hundreds of pages just devoted to exploring his rise to power.  So I have to say writing off Hitler as some petty little man just tends in my eyes to trivialize the horrors he inflicted upon the world and the sacrifices the Allies undertook in order to stop him.
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