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Elite Media Gets Desparate: NY Times Arnold Op-Ed

Media NYTimes Op-Ed

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#41 Rov Judicata

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Posted 06 October 2003 - 04:08 PM

^

Ah, I've known you for three years (or so), and I didn't know you spoke Spanish. Spiffy.

Looking deeper, the problem appears to be this:

MECHA is decentralized. Some chapters might, in fact, have the motto "For those inside the race...". Others might have the more benign one.

That leaves two relevant issues:

1) Which one did Bustamente's chapter have?
2) Why did Bustamante refuse to renounce it?

The issue is, apparently, far more complex than I first gave it credit for; my apologies.

:confused:
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
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~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#42 Bad Wolf

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Posted 06 October 2003 - 04:11 PM

Javert Rovinski, on Oct 6 2003, 02:08 PM, said:

^

Ah, I've known you for three years (or so), and I didn't know you spoke Spanish. Spiffy.
LOL!

That's almost as good as Keith not knowing I was a lawyer...;)

And no apology necessary imo.

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#43 Norville

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Posted 06 October 2003 - 06:37 PM

Quote

Yeah we need more guys like Davis and Bustie I mean they can skim cash with the best of them.

G, you might try reading what some of the anti-Ahnold people say -- I'm extremely anti-Ahnold, but I'm pro-McClintock. McClintock (a Republican) seems to be the best man for the job; he has actual political experience instead of Ahnold with his clench-jaw-and-talk-in-monotone "acting". He stands by what he believes. He seems to have some guts, in that he actually has gone on Michael Savage's show (the Savage Nation) more than once and came out well each time with that *extremely* fierce talk show host who will hang up on people at any provocation; whereas Ahnold won't even go to more than one debate (and that one was a fiasco).

Quote

well if the motto is in fact "La union hace la Fuerza" then the correct translation IS "Unity creates Power".

My experience with Spanish indicates that is indeed the translation. I haven't happened to stumble across the quote that people are saying translates to "for the race, everything", etc.

Edited by Norville, 06 October 2003 - 06:44 PM.

"The dew has fallen with a particularly sickening thud this morning."
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Rules for Surviving an Autocracy
Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
http://www.nybooks.c...s-for-survival/

#44 Bad Wolf

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Posted 06 October 2003 - 06:43 PM

^

Well I just found out (mea culpa, I never even took McKlintock's candidacy seriously because he never had a chance so I didn't know this sooner) that he's anti choice.

Which means now I don't have to feel bad that I can't vote for him.

Lil
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#45 Rhea

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Posted 06 October 2003 - 08:28 PM

Javert Rovinski, on Oct 6 2003, 02:01 PM, said:

GiGi-- I decided to fact check myself.

http://www.voznuestr...2003/_August/29

Quote

Fox News and O'Reilly also mistakenly say that MEChA's motto is "for the race, everything. For those outside the race, nothing." Again, they have gotten wrong; actually the motto of MECHA is "La union hace la fuerza" (Unity creates power). Further the gaggle charges that MECHA has 300 chapters in universities across the U.S. making the false assumption that they have a national organization with a national office. MECHA is a student organization with no formal central body, it has no national office, it has no budget, and it has no constitution.

And:

http://ktla.trb.com/...oll=ktla-home-1

Quote

MEChA's motto is "La Union Hace La Fuerza," which means, "Unity Creates Power." MEChA members said another slogan that translates as "For the race, everything. For those outside the race, nothing" is not the group's motto, as reported by some news organizations, but was used by Chicano activists before MEChA was founded.

However:

http://www.chronwatc...4057&mode=print

Quote

MEChA's motto is ''for the race, everything. For those outside the race, nothing.'' Critics say affiliation with that kind of group could spell political ruin for a white candidate and are upset that little attention has been paid to Bustamante's relationship with the group. He belonged to MEChA while attending Fresno State University in the 1970s.

It's hard to know what to believe; I was unaware of the alternate translation until now.

I'm tempted to believe that the more inflamnatory motto is the real one, as Bustamante didn't mention that Lester Holt had it wrong; if that was the case, he should have had that answer prepared.
Actually, it doesn't take a translator to read that motto - "La union hace la fuerza" Unity creates strength (or power. <shrug>

I tried to say earlier that I have a passing familiarity with them, that they're just another student organization, and that to the best of my knowledge they've never been much more than a social organization, but I got pooh-poohed.
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#46 GiGi

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Posted 06 October 2003 - 09:44 PM

Rov, Rhea, Lil, it was I who suggested a mistranslation, I was only guessing.

It seems that there is a mutil-layered situation going on here.  We are trying to figure out another culture's motives without knowing what we are talking about completely as there is a cultural gap.

Hubby isn't home (taps foot, he was supposed to be home hours ago) He may be able to tell me more.

I don't know why Bustemente didn't deny his support, maybe it is a complex issue that can't be answered yes or no in a flash.  Having been around Middle Eastern folks I know that some cultural things do not translate well, they are subtle and an answer to a simple question would take hours of education as to the background of why an certain answer would be given.  Maybe he just wasn't denying that he was a member and at that time that was a rally cry.

I know one thing that hubby has talked about is that some of the current members of Mecha are spoiled third generation Latino kids who just have normal teenage angst and issues.  In other words if they can afford to go to a University, they don't have the same issues as the poverty stricken Latinos.  And much of their talk is whiny, spoiled kids gripping about non-issues and would not organize to do anything that takes away from their good life.  Meaning they have become good American materialists!
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#47 GiGi

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Posted 06 October 2003 - 09:49 PM

Rhea, on Oct 6 2003, 05:28 PM, said:

I tried to say earlier that I have a passing familiarity with them, that they're just another student organization, and that to the best of my knowledge they've never been much more than a social organization, but I got pooh-poohed.
That would have NOT been me  ;)

I think the same way, I don't think they are racist, if anything they are exclusionary, but I have seen black clubs do that too.

I live just miles from a huge Latino community, (and blocks from the flats where the Latinos in poverty are), I am not worried that I will be a victim of a hate crime or that my block will be taken over.  If anything all of the Latinos I have met lately (mostly my age and younger) are really nice, sweet, sincere and generous folk.
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#48 Norville

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Posted 06 October 2003 - 09:59 PM

Quote

Well I just found out (mea culpa, I never even took McKlintock's candidacy seriously because he never had a chance so I didn't know this sooner) that he's anti choice.

Which means now I don't have to feel bad that I can't vote for him.

Yeah, I know that McClintock's "pro-life" (he states it that way, not "anti-choice", though it comes to the same thing). That spooks me, but what are my choices other than Davis? Ah-nold, Bustamante... no thanks. I suppose I could vote for the Green guy, but he'd be a spoiler as Nader was.

Hmm. I wish I could get a politician who'd reform Golden Gate Transit. The transit powers-that-be are about to take a pretty decent bus system and cut it to bits in November (by 30%, but with the effect it's going to have on my ability to get places on time, it might as well be 60%). Meanwhile, some of them apparently went on really expensive trips to Paris. Could we recall these morons? Could we get a politician who'd reform the transit system for the better? Could Marin possibly get an effective bus system of its own instead of relying on GGT, which emanates from San Francisco? (Well, no, we couldn't... we can't even have a discussion about a light rail system without freaking out.)

So, that's what's mostly on my mind right now, having seen the prospective new bus schedule fiasco that's being inflicted upon us and gone over with a GGT representative what I can possibly do to get anywhere... well, I could learn to drive! :crazy:

I want a politician who will support a decent bus system for those who *don't* drive and would prefer not to do so. That's probably selfish. Oh well.
"The dew has fallen with a particularly sickening thud this morning."
- Marvin the Paranoid Android, "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy"

Rules for Surviving an Autocracy
Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
http://www.nybooks.c...s-for-survival/

#49 GiGi

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Posted 06 October 2003 - 10:21 PM

^ It's not selfish.  It is a reasonable request.  But is it not a local issue?  Just as the Santa Cruz rapid transit is our local issue.
"Life is as dear to a mute creature as it is to man. Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not die, so do all creatures." -- HH The Dalai Lama

#50 Delvo

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Posted 06 October 2003 - 10:56 PM

Why are we acting like it's impossible for one organization to have more than one motto? I know there are plenty that have more. And even if they only have one at a time, they could have changed it since Bustamante was a member.

Likewise, it doesn't matter how many people say they have some contact with MECHA and how nice they're all playing now; the point is what they were back then. And that was the "brown" version of the Black Panthers... which, BTW, is another one of those "radical" groups from back then that presently seems much more toned down. It's not exactly uncommon among those groups, and it doesn't acquit past members for their involvement in what the groups were back then.

BTW, there's no need to bother bringing abortion into you considerations in this election, because it's 100% irrelevant. No matter who wins, he'll have NO effect on it at all. It's settled law, at the Federal level. What can be done to change it now? A reconsideration by the U.S. Supreme Court, or a new action on it by the U.S. Congress. We're talking about an Executive Branch official in a STATE government...

#51 Bad Wolf

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Posted 06 October 2003 - 11:04 PM

Delvo the US Supreme court is ONE justice from a 5-4 majority needed to reverse itself on the abortion issue.  O'Connor is the swing vote and she's ailing.

The law is far from settled.

Yes in California there is the added protection of a specific right to privacy in the state constitution and that is indeed a comfort to me.

However all it takes is one decision by enough judges to cut into it.

And um who gets to appoint a lot of judges?

Why, the would be the governer.

In short, it damned straight IS relevant.

Lil

Edited by Una Salus Lillius, 06 October 2003 - 11:05 PM.

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#52 MuseZack

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Posted 06 October 2003 - 11:20 PM

The slogan in question is from one of Mecha's founding documents, and in Spanish reads:  "Por La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada."   The commonly cited translation is not really accurate.  If they meant "for the race" they would have used the specific "para" rather than the much more ambiguous "por" which in this context is much more likely to mean "through the race."  Also, raza=race isn't really an exact translation, as raza is a much more expansive word.  And "fuera de La Raza"  just as easily translates as simply "outside the race, nothing."  So it's much more likely that the sentiment expressed by the slogan is a "united we stand" sort of ethnic language, which is still kind of obnoxious but not nearly as scary as the inflammatory and inaccurate translation being bandied about.

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#53 Bad Wolf

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Posted 06 October 2003 - 11:24 PM

"Por La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada."

I would say that a good translation (not literal but the spirit of what it means) would be something like "By way of sticking together with our people we can get everything.  Without that, we get nothing."  So it's more a message of solidarity than excusivisity...

Edited by Una Salus Lillius, 06 October 2003 - 11:25 PM.

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#54 Norville

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Posted 06 October 2003 - 11:34 PM

Quote

But is it not a local issue? Just as the Santa Cruz rapid transit is our local issue.

Oh, aye. I just really needed to rant somewhere, and a political thread seemed the best place... ;)

Re: the Spanish slogan, thanks to Zack and Lil. Despite years of exposure to Spanish, I'm rustier than I should be. Maybe some of these people were translating it at the Babel Fish website, which translates it as "By the Race all. Outside the Race nothing." ;)
"The dew has fallen with a particularly sickening thud this morning."
- Marvin the Paranoid Android, "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy"

Rules for Surviving an Autocracy
Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
http://www.nybooks.c...s-for-survival/

#55 Bad Wolf

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Posted 06 October 2003 - 11:34 PM

Upon further reflection (hey I speak it better than I write and read it), I think the message is that By being who we are, la Raza, we can get everything.  By not doing that, we get nothing.

So it's a message of solidarity among latinos and embracing the latino cultural background among latinos...

Lil
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#56 Rov Judicata

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Posted 06 October 2003 - 11:41 PM

:lol: Lil @ Keith.

Agreed that abortion is relevant. <Although, frankly, even if it was decided that abortion wasn't a constitutional right, I doubt that the institution would be under serious threat in California. If anything, it would help the democrats immensely by giving them a relevant issue that the overwhelming majority of democrats can get behind>

Re: Slogan. Then my only question is why Bustamante hasn't pointed out that it's being mistranslated. I saw him on national TV stonewall... what gives? Surely he has to know.

As for the rest: I'll reply tomorrow. Of course, this will quickly all be moot...

Edited by Javert Rovinski, 06 October 2003 - 11:42 PM.

St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#57 Rhea

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Posted 07 October 2003 - 09:33 AM

Javert Rovinski, on Oct 6 2003, 09:41 PM, said:

:lol: Lil @ Keith.

Agreed that abortion is relevant. <Although, frankly, even if it was decided that abortion wasn't a constitutional right, I doubt that the institution would be under serious threat in California. If anything, it would help the democrats immensely by giving them a relevant issue that the overwhelming majority of democrats can get behind>

Re: Slogan. Then my only question is why Bustamante hasn't pointed out that it's being mistranslated. I saw him on national TV stonewall... what gives? Surely he has to know.

As for the rest: I'll reply tomorrow. Of course, this will quickly all be moot...
He actually did explain it. Several times. Nobody wanted to hear it, so it went by the wayside. I'll see if I can find a link.
The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#58 Rov Judicata

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Posted 07 October 2003 - 09:45 AM

From the debate a few days ago (and courtesy of the LA Times, so there's no right wing spin here):

http://www.latimes.c...ll03oct03.story

Quote

About the only discordant notes were sounded when Bustamante was repeatedly asked to denounce a motto associated with the Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlan (Chicano Student Movement of Aztlan), a Latino college group to which he once belonged.

As he has consistently throughout the campaign, he refused to denounce the motto: "For the race, everything; for those outside the race, nothing."

"You know," Bustamante said when debate moderator Paul Moyer demanded an answer, "now it's getting to the point where it's a little offensive the way the question is being asked."

Huh? Why isn't Bustamante saying, "Well, actually, it's a message about unity. The correct translation is..."

I'll try to dig up a full text of the actual debate.
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#59 Delvo

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Posted 07 October 2003 - 10:09 AM

The translation doesn't matter much, when you consider that they've used that phrase in English... unless you just figure that they translated their own motto into English wrong themselves, and then went around for a while using it that way without knowing what it really meant to those who knew English.

It wouldn't be the first time. Remember the bad sales of the Chevrolet "Nova" ("It doesn't move") in South America?

And even the motto itself doesn't matter. Skip mottos entirely and look at how the group behaved and what they advocated when Bustamante was a member. The English motto we've been discussing simply fit them better and would have been more honest.

#60 QueenTiye

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Posted 07 October 2003 - 10:13 AM

Delvo, on Oct 7 2003, 11:09 AM, said:

The translation doesn't matter much, when you consider that they've used that phrase in English... unless you just figure that they translated their own motto into English wrong themselves, and then went around for a while using it that way without knowing what it really meant to those who knew English.

It wouldn't be the first time. Remember the bad sales of the Chevrolet "Nova" ("It doesn't move") in South America?

And even the motto itself doesn't matter. Skip mottos entirely and look at how the group behaved and what they advocated when Bustamante was a member. The English motto we've been discussing simply fit them better and would have been more honest.
Sorry to go off on the obvious tangent here - but... given that the racist application of the group is spotty and only here and there - might it be possible that a mistranslation of the quote attracted people to the group who favored that interpretation - however erroneous it was in the first place?  

And... LOL @ "Nova!"

QT

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