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Elite Media Gets Desparate: NY Times Arnold Op-Ed

Media NYTimes Op-Ed

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#61 GiGi

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Posted 07 October 2003 - 10:56 AM

Excellent post QT!

Rov, those are interesting questions, but at the risk of of sounding like a "racist" you are thinking like a "white boy"  ;)

Just kidding.  Actually the point I want to make is two things, first of all, it is easy to think of what you "should have said" when the moment is over.  If Bustemente had later changed his statement on that he would have been attacked for back-peddling or some other thing like that.  Also keep in mind this is merely a student group on college campuses, there really is no threat and like the cute young lady from Mecha interviewed on our local news station said "we are just learning about our culture"

Second, and this is the part having to do with my white boy comment, Rov, you are thinking like a white American, with the influences of America as it was in the 80's and 90's.  Bustemente, even though his English is impeccable, comes from a different culture than you.  His first language is probably Spanish, so he will be thinking in Spanish, with the overlay of the Mexican culture.  It may not have occurred to him that it was an important difference.  

I could go on with many, many stories as I have lived with Moslems, spent hours talking to Mexicans about Flamenco (they don't understand it at all, because it is from Spain and they have no connection to that country culturally).  I have a best friend who is second generation Chinese and whose parents speak mostly Chinese. I have spent so much time with people of other cultures to know that even if we all speak English there are things unique to each culture that if I would say or do the wrong thing, someone could be really offended. (for example never sit on the ground with your feet facing someone who is Middle Eastern, grave offense).  And then there is dealing with snooty Spanish Flamenco guitarists...

So I guess I give Bustemente a little more wiggle room because I know the culture a bit, I have dealt with many cultures and it is easy for misunderstandings to get way out of control needlessly.  And I am not in fear of a student group (hubby came home and confirmed that what I typed earlier about that was correct)

Was Mecha different in the 70's?  Of course, a lot of things were.  And folks here, even Zack are forgiving Arnold for making the Hitler comments in the same time frame, why hold Bustemente to a different standard?  Seems hypocritical to me.
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#62 Delvo

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Posted 07 October 2003 - 11:32 AM

GiGi, on Oct 7 2003, 09:56 AM, said:

forgiving Arnold for making the Hitler comments in the same time frame, why hold Bustemente to a different standard?  Seems hypocritical to me.
Political debates are beginning to teach me a new definition of the word "hypocritical". It's not when someone contradicts himself/herself or holds other people to standards that (s)he and his/her allies would not be held to. It's just when somebody on the opposing side doesn't like a given idea. Without fail, every single time I've seen the word used for a long long time, is for the latter use; the former is forgotten.

One of these guys has said that he doesn't do/say/think anymore what he did back then and that those were bad things to do/say/think. The other has not, and evades when asked to as if he still thinks the same now and has to remind himself not to say it out loud. They're treated differently because their actions in the present on the subject of their pasts are different. No hypocrisy. It's just not there. Get real.

#63 Rov Judicata

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Posted 07 October 2003 - 11:54 AM

GiGi-- I don't buy it. Surely by now somebody has explained the situation to him. If he's incapable of understanding why the slogan that he refuses to renounce causes discomfort, then I don't have much hope of him understanding how to build support for things in the state legislature.

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forgiving Arnold for making the Hitler comments in the same time frame, why hold Bustemente to a different standard? Seems hypocritical to me.

As Delvo mentioned, Arnold has come out and said he didn't respect anything Hitler stood for. Further, Arnold said at the time that he admired Hitler for his abilities, but NOT what he did with it. He was misquoted in that regard, because 'somehow' the word 'not' got dropped by the media. :rolleyes:.

The situations simply aren't comparable. And I don't like either candidate.
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#64 Jid

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Posted 07 October 2003 - 12:08 PM

You know, I keep coming across the title of this thread, and can't help but giggle.

I mean really, wouldn't this be way cooler if it were:

L33T M3D14 Gets Desperate ?

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D00D, 4RN0LD SUX0RZ, BU7 50 D035 BU57AM3N73!

W3 R 5CR3WD.  FR3LL!

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D00D, 1M V071NG 4 A 3RD CAND1DA73

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D00D, U R THR0W1NG UR V0T3 4W4Y!!! LOLZ!!!11

Well, at least, *I* think it'd be pretty great ;)
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#65 Josh

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Posted 07 October 2003 - 12:09 PM

^

<cries>

w00t! ;)
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#66 Bad Wolf

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Posted 07 October 2003 - 01:01 PM

You know there really IS  difference between admiring the leadership skills of someone or the way he managed to get power and absolutely LOATHING what he did with that leadership.

I mean come on people.  In the Busti money laundering incident I gave props to the person who thought up how to get around prop 34.

Doesn't mean I agree with or condone or admire Busti's tactics.
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#67 G1223

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Posted 07 October 2003 - 01:19 PM

BTW I was watching CNBC and they commented that one  of the women who accused him of grouping her was chargedwith prostitution and a few people stepped up to lay claim against her allogations.
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#68 GiGi

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Posted 07 October 2003 - 01:20 PM

My husband said also that the motto of Mecha as he has heard it was the way Zack translated it earlier in this thread only that "raza" can also mean people.

He also said it is a non-issue and to try and explain it further just makes it more convoluted.  He said if he were Bustemente he would have answered the same way.

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He actually did explain it. Several times. Nobody wanted to hear it, so it went by the wayside. I'll see if I can find a link.

^ See, he has explained it, to beat on it is to act like what he said didn't matter because it wasn't the answer someone wanted to hear.

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Get real.

And what reality is that?  

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You know there really IS  difference between admiring the leadership skills of someone or the way he managed to get power and absolutely LOATHING what he did with that leadership.

There is and there isn't.  Don't you remember the Star Trek episode where the starship Captain molded a society based on the Nazi's.  He was trying to bring forth the best of that society and not the distructive parts, it didn't end up working out that way. (Can't remember the episode title)

I am not familiar with Hitler's rise to power enough to detail why my gut instinct is to say somthing is wrong.  I am still very uncomfortable with Arnold's quote saying he wished he could experience being .."like Hitler in the Nuremberg stadium and have all those people scream at you and just being total agreement whatever you say."

That is a warning bell to me, and it is a feeling I have and I am not going to deny that feeling.  It may be right, it may be wrong, but I have the right to feel it.

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Doesn't mean I agree with or condone or admire Busti's tactics.

I don't either, but it doesn't make him a racist trying to return California to Mexico as some people (not speaking specifically about this board, but in general) are painting him.

That is just wrong to me.  And believe me I have had my issues with Latinos, but this is not one of those times.
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#69 Bad Wolf

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Posted 07 October 2003 - 01:33 PM

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That is a warning bell to me, and it is a feeling I have and I am not going to deny that feeling. It may be right, it may be wrong, but I have the right to feel it.

Of course you do.

I just think that it is a leap to say that Arnie's comments mean he supports nazis or something.  It's not necessarily the same thing.

Lil
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#70 Rhea

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Posted 07 October 2003 - 02:41 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Oct 7 2003, 11:33 AM, said:

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That is a warning bell to me, and it is a feeling I have and I am not going to deny that feeling. It may be right, it may be wrong, but I have the right to feel it.

Of course you do.

I just think that it is a leap to say that Arnie's comments mean he supports nazis or something.  It's not necessarily the same thing.

Lil
I think it bothers Gigi for the same reason it bothers me - and not because either of us thinks it make him a Nazi. It's the sheer egomania of it all - that the thing that really turns this guy on is the idea of standing on a stage like that at Nuremburg and having hundreds of thousands of people blindly adoring him. Yeesh!
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#71 GiGi

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Posted 07 October 2003 - 03:03 PM

What Rhea said.  I have never said Arnie supports Nazi's because I don't think he does.

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It's the sheer egomania of it all - that the thing that really turns this guy on is the idea of standing on a stage like that at Nuremburg and having hundreds of thousands of people blindly adoring him. Yeesh!

Yep, that is the reason for the warning bell
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#72 Bad Wolf

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Posted 07 October 2003 - 03:18 PM

I once read an autobiography by Placido Domingo and he was talking about the difference between conducting opera and singing it on stage and he said that when he's on stage he NEEDS that adulation from the audience.

I view Arnold's comments in much the same light.  He's a performer who craves approval and adulation.

It's hardly a crime.

Does it make him egotistical?  

Yeah but I didn't need that quote to surmise that the man's egotistical.  I mean, he's both Conan AND the Terminator.  Of course he's got an ego.

I hope this doesn't sound dismissive.  I guess I just think it's being blown out of proportion.

Again, just my own view.
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#73 Delvo

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Posted 07 October 2003 - 03:22 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Oct 7 2003, 12:01 PM, said:

Doesn't mean I agree with or condone or admire Busti's tactics.
For a moment there, I was wondering how you'd managed to get the President into this...

#74 Bad Wolf

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Posted 07 October 2003 - 03:26 PM

Delvo, on Oct 7 2003, 01:22 PM, said:

Una Salus Lillius, on Oct 7 2003, 12:01 PM, said:

Doesn't mean I agree with or condone or admire Busti's tactics.
For a moment there, I was wondering how you'd managed to get the President into this...
Um.........

you know, I'm not feeling well and when I don't feel well I get a bit depressed.  Well okay I'm also depressed because I think Ahnold is gonna drive the state even further into the ground.

At any rate...

I REALLY needed the smile you just put on my face and the laugh.

So:

{{{{{{{{{{{{{Delvo}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

THANK YOU!
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#75 GiGi

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Posted 07 October 2003 - 03:55 PM

Lil, I hear you, I am a performer myself, I understand completely the need for the audience to adore you otherwise why risk putting yourself in such a place.

I have tried to articulate what about the things Arnold says and does that strikes me as different than normal performer's ego.  As I said before it is mostly a gut feeling. (Or it could be the way his thugs er, I mean bouncers forcibly dragged protesters away from Arnie's rally including two nuns... not sure)

Bottomline, you and I are in agreement, that Arnie is going to make the state a bigger mess and that really is the issue here.
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#76 Norville

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Posted 07 October 2003 - 10:35 PM

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I think it bothers Gigi for the same reason it bothers me - and not because either of us thinks it make him a Nazi. It's the sheer egomania of it all - that the thing that really turns this guy on is the idea of standing on a stage like that at Nuremburg and having hundreds of thousands of people blindly adoring him. Yeesh!

*shudder* That's what worries me, too, that he's in it purely for his own personal glory, for the reaction he'll get from his fans.

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Bottomline, you and I are in agreement, that Arnie is going to make the state a bigger mess and that really is the issue here.

Oh yes. I suppose one could say that this recall was a revolution in California. It's too bad that the revolution has apparently put Hollywood even more strongly in charge of California, with this actor-guy. I despise Hollywood and its influence, and now we likely have a bad Hollywood actor in charge. Oh, *please*.
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#77 Guest-2112st-Guest

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Posted 07 October 2003 - 11:56 PM

Rhea, on Oct 6 2003, 06:18 PM, said:

And if that sounds like I'm denigrating Arnie supporters, you're damn right I am. I can't believe a reasonably sane adult would vote for this man.  :crazy:
Ummmmm-you were saying??

:wideeyed:  :wideeyed:  :wideeyed:

:hehe:

Saul

#78 Bad Wolf

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Posted 08 October 2003 - 12:18 AM

Vapor Trails, on Oct 7 2003, 09:56 PM, said:

Rhea, on Oct 6 2003, 06:18 PM, said:

And if that sounds like I'm denigrating Arnie supporters, you're damn right I am. I can't believe a reasonably sane adult would vote for this man.  :crazy:
Ummmmm-you were saying??

:wideeyed:  :wideeyed:  :wideeyed:

:hehe:

Saul
Objection, assumes facts not in evidence regarding those who voted for Ahnold.

;)

Okay I'm KIDDING.  I know some very good people who voted for him.

Do I agree?

Nope.

Do I think they're being misguided?

Yes.

Do I think they are not reasonably sane?

Well, not all of them...;)

Lil
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