Jump to content


Getting an "Insecure Connection" warning for Exisle? No worry

Details in this thread

The Governator

California Arnold Schwarzenegger 2003

  • Please log in to reply
48 replies to this topic

#21 Bad Wolf

Bad Wolf

    Luck is when opportunity meets preparation

  • Islander
  • 38,881 posts

Posted 09 October 2003 - 11:10 PM

Guess what's on Sci Fi right now?

Total Recall.

Arnie just asked his friend if he'd ever heard of "recall" and the friend told him not to mess with it so now Arnie's at recall.

This is just frellin' SURREAL. :eek2:
Posted Image

#22 Guest-2112st-Guest

Guest-2112st-Guest
  • Guest

Posted 09 October 2003 - 11:18 PM

My worthless 2 quatloos...

I'm not sure what to think about Arnold as a choice for governor-but one positive IMO is that IIRC, he became a millionare through real estate-and I believe this was before he met Maria Shriver, possibly before he started his acting career.

Morons do not make themselves into millionares. Outside of luck, you have to be pretty damn shrewd in business.

Doesn't that count for anything?

:eh:

#23 Uncle Sid

Uncle Sid

    Highly impressionable

  • Islander
  • 1,414 posts

Posted 09 October 2003 - 11:19 PM

Quote

Guess what's on Sci Fi right now?

Total Recall.

Arnie just asked his friend if he'd ever heard of "recall" and the friend told him not to mess with it so now Arnie's at recall.

This is just frellin' SURREAL.

Ronny Cox, the guy who plays Cohaagen looks something like Gray Davis too...  Hmm...

:coolninja:

Edited by Uncle Sid, 09 October 2003 - 11:19 PM.

I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it. - Jack Handey

#24 Bad Wolf

Bad Wolf

    Luck is when opportunity meets preparation

  • Islander
  • 38,881 posts

Posted 09 October 2003 - 11:25 PM

Saul I don't think so.

The reason I don't think so is that I think he's completely unprepared for the reality of partisan politics in Sacramento.  Our state legislature is particularly contentious and affected by special interest considerations.

In his press conference Arnold breezily promised to "get rid" of the special interests.

I can't even express how incredibly naive this is.

Yes I think his intentions are good and yes he's got some business acumen.

But California is one of the largest economies there is.  I'm afraid that he needs a lot of POLITICAL know how to navigate this thing and he just doesn't have it.

FWIW I wish him success.  Hey if he does it then California is better off, the Republican Party receives a loud message about the benefits of adopting a less conservative stance on social issues, and the democratic party is sent a loud message about coming up with better campaigns, candidates, and doing business in Sacramento.  If.

Notice me noticing myself not holding my breath.

And Uncle Sid:   :eek2:  :eek:  :eek2:

Edited by Una Salus Lillius, 09 October 2003 - 11:26 PM.

Posted Image

#25 Rov Judicata

Rov Judicata

    Crassly Irresponsible and Indifferent

  • Islander
  • 15,720 posts

Posted 09 October 2003 - 11:34 PM

Kevin-- What usually gets overlooked is that Americans do the jobs in other places. Who do you think is picking the corn in the heartland?

Quote

Once I got around to thinking about it harder, I felt a little less disgusted by it and a little more suspecting that it might actually have been a good security measure, a way to track the illegals. Keep track of them, so that when they drive like maniacs, we might at least know who that hit-and-run driver was... and it might work for things other than driving, too. If we want to pay closer attention to illegals in case of terrorism, that's a way.

Um.. huh? So, a terrorist is going to sneak into this nation and stealthily get a dirver's license with his real name? This is about two things: Giving illegals the ability to vote, and pacifying the entitlement groups.
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#26 Norville

Norville
  • Islander
  • 4,501 posts

Posted 09 October 2003 - 11:52 PM

Quote

What usually gets overlooked is that Americans do the jobs in other places. Who do you think is picking the corn in the heartland?

True, but I meant California when I went into that. And from what I've heard, farming (at least family farms, not "agribusiness") is in trouble. If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong; I'd like to be. *shrug*

Quote

Um.. huh? So, a terrorist is going to sneak into this nation and stealthily get a dirver's license with his real name?

Okay, so I was paranoid to say that, but I've been reading enough creepy stuff lately to make me so. ;) I thought I'd heard something to that effect, that it could've been used to track people that are considered suspicious. Never mind; I should get some sleep. ;)

Quote

This is about two things: Giving illegals the ability to vote, and pacifying the entitlement groups.

I sure as *bleep* am not denying that. I still think it was a terrible idea, but something I heard somewhere (already lost track of where) suggested it might have had ulterior security motives. I'm sure that was just a desperate attempt to find something positive to say about it! :barf:
"The dew has fallen with a particularly sickening thud this morning."
- Marvin the Paranoid Android, "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy"

Rules for Surviving an Autocracy
Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
http://www.nybooks.c...s-for-survival/

#27 Kevin Street

Kevin Street
  • Islander
  • 6,256 posts

Posted 10 October 2003 - 12:38 PM

Javert Rovinski, on Oct 9 2003, 10:34 PM, said:

Kevin-- What usually gets overlooked is that Americans do the jobs in other places. Who do you think is picking the corn in the heartland?
I don't quite get what you're saying, Rov. It's certainly true that illegal migrants haven't replaced all of the low wage manual farmworkers in America. Not yet, anyway. But they will eventually if the current California "system" isn't changed. It's simple economics - companies hire the cheapest labour they can find, and the price of labour is driven down to the lowest wage employees are willing to work for. As long as the laws are ignored, corporations can take advantage of the desperation of people in third world countries to drive the price of labour down below subsistence levels.

I agree with the others here that the current immigration laws should be enforced and illegal migrants kept out of America (and the companies that employ them should be prosecuted with penalties that actually sting and deter, rather than just adding a few cents to the cost of strawberries) - what to do with the millions of illegal immigrants already in California is another issue. Personally, I favour the idea of making them citizens; they've worked at least as hard as anyone else to make California's economy strong, after all. But that would add large numbers of unemployed people to the population (at least in the short term), particularly if the industries that currently employ them go under.

The short term effect of truly enforcing the immigration laws would be harmful to the economy, as many of these agribusinesses could not exist if they had to compete on the same terms as companies that only employ legal workers. Many of them would probably go bankrupt, and many would probably relocate to countries like Mexico where they could continue to hire people for less than minimum wage. But long term, the effects would be positive, since there would no longer be a constant force eroding the bottom out of US pay scales, and the millions of Americans who currently work at low paying jobs wouldn't have to face being replaced by illegal immigrants.

But there are powerful forces that would work against any progress in this situation. For instance, conditions in Mexico continue to deteriorate, as environmental degradation and economic obsolescence make life impossible in rural Mexican villages, so huge and increasing numbers of Mexicans will continue to migrate to other areas in an effort to survive, and America will always be the most attractive place to go. And all the corporations that currently depend upon illegal immigrants will probably lobby againt any change in the status quo, so there are powerful vested interests to overcome.

Anyway, sorry about the threadjack. :blush: Back to Schwarzenegger now...

Edited by Kevin Street, 10 October 2003 - 01:36 PM.


#28 HubcapDave

HubcapDave

    Bald is Beautiful!

  • Islander
  • 1,333 posts

Posted 10 October 2003 - 01:14 PM

Vapor Trails, on Oct 9 2003, 09:18 PM, said:

My worthless 2 quatloos...

I'm not sure what to think about Arnold as a choice for governor-but one positive IMO is that IIRC, he became a millionare through real estate-and I believe this was before he met Maria Shriver, possibly before he started his acting career.

Morons do not make themselves into millionares. Outside of luck, you have to be pretty damn shrewd in business.

Doesn't that count for anything?

:eh:
It does in my book.

#29 CJ AEGIS

CJ AEGIS

    Warship Guru!

  • Islander
  • 6,847 posts

Posted 10 October 2003 - 01:32 PM

Quote

Norville: Agreed on that, though I'd hate to go as far as nuclear land mines... :eek2:

Nuclear landmines are only really good for when the red horde comes pouring out at your defensive lines.  ;)

A UAV/remote sensor surveillance net in depth with a unified quick reactionary force with both ground based and airborne units would be able to nab most illegal aliens trying to slip through.  Mines are great for static defense against hostile forces with superior numbers but they’d suck royally for this type of deal.  Better to leave the option to apply force and lethal force to the discretion of people on the ground or in the air.      

Quote

Kevin Street: I don't quite get what you're saying, Rov. It's certainly true that illegal migrants haven't replaced all of the low wage manual farmworkers in America. Not yet, anyway.

I don’t think it will take that jump to replace them nationwide either.  

The agricultural situation on a nationwide basis just frankly sucks at the current time.  The only ones that are succeeding are large-scale agribusiness firms while smaller producers are being crushed with an inability to make any type of serious profit.  Now in at least in the production of meat animals there is if anything more of a demand for trained personnel rather than low paid minimal wage workers.  The days of throwing Old Betsy a bail of hay and then milking her with a pail are long since gone.  Sure there might be some demand for low wage labor but the bulk of the demand will be for people who have either basic training or in some cases years of college behind them.

The other aspect is the corn and wheat belts are both extensively mechanized with the actual demand for laborers reducing all the time as the process becomes more mechanized.  There is just no demand for people to go out in the fields and pick corn by hand these days. Sure some small places are still operating in that type of manner but ultimately they’ll be the first ones to go under.  There is a reason why we have combines. ;)  California with the large amount of fruit farms is a different matter because these operations are still very manual labor intensive.  Other than apples, pumpkins (seen mechanized pumpkin picking too), and a few other goods a large portion of the rest of agriculture in the US lacks these labor-intensive fruit/vegetable production operations.        

What we need to do is remove the illegal aliens from the system and I’m all in favor of sending them back home.  The last thing we need is a whole market of unskilled laborers with no jobs for them.  Sure it will take time to hunt down the bulk of them but in that time they can continue working illegally while the entire system is fazed over.  The farm subsidieties that keep so many beleaguered farms going but places a further strain on government spending have to be slowly fazed out to nothing.  Then to keep a mass number of farms from going under the public has to come to understand that food in the US is grossly under priced compared to what it costs to produce it.  In some items price rises would probably only be a few cents or less but in others like milk you could expect the price to shoot up a dollar or more a gallon to stabilize at the cost to produce and still make a profit.  It is something the American public has to realize if they want to preserve the agricultural base of this country.

Edited by CJ AEGIS, 10 October 2003 - 01:32 PM.

"History has proven too often and too recently that the nation which relaxes its defenses invites attack."
        -Fleet Admiral Nimitz
"Their sailors say they should have flight pay and sub pay both -- they're in the air half the time, under the water the other half""
        - Ernie Pyle: Aboard a DE

#30 Rhea

Rhea

  • Islander
  • 16,433 posts

Posted 10 October 2003 - 01:53 PM

Norville, on Oct 9 2003, 08:21 PM, said:

Quote

In California (and to a lesser degree in many other states) large segments of the economy depend upon illegal immigrants as their primary workforce. If the migrants were no longer available and industries like the strawberry growers had to pay minimum wage to their workers, they would no longer turn a profit and might just shut down.

I'm going to recommend that everybody read a book again -- Mexifornia by Victor Davis Hanson. We might resent the hell out of illegals, but the migrants often work their butts off doing incredibly hard work that American citizens are unlikely to want to touch, unless they grew up on farms (and, sadly, almost no Americans have farm experience in these ever-so-modern times, but we still need what farmers produce!).
I am completely and absolutely unsympathetic to ANYONE who makes a living by employing people for less than minimum wage. I would rather pay a few cents more for my veggies and fruit and KNOW that the people who do the hard work are making enough money to at least begin to feed their families (and minimum wage is not really a living wage).

As far as I'm concerned people who use illegal labor deserve to go out of business. Period.

(I lived in the Imperial Valley and know a lot more about migrant workers than most, so I actually know whereof I speak firsthand. I was privileged to meet Cesar Chavez more than once and consider those meetings to be some of the high points of my life).

Edited by Rhea, 10 October 2003 - 01:54 PM.

The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#31 Kevin Street

Kevin Street
  • Islander
  • 6,256 posts

Posted 10 October 2003 - 02:06 PM

Edit: In reply to CJ AEGIS:

Many industries are mechanized, but that machinery costs a lot to maintain and replace when it becomes obsolete. Given the choice, I suspect many farms and agribusiness operations (even in states far from the border), would replace many of their machines with illegal migrant labour, if that switch significantly lowered costs and there were no real penalities. The changes might not happen right away, but could occur gradually as the machines break down and aren't replaced. Even the California fruit industry could be largely mechanized, but it isn't because it's cheaper to keep things the way they are.

And as more illegal migrants enter the labour pool, companies begn to use them in more and more positions, gradually replacing low wage workers in many diferent industries. In California this has already happened to a large extent in industries like construction and cleaning. It's not just farm labour that's at risk (much of which is curently mechanized, as you point out), but all jobs at the lower end of the pay scale.

I agree with you that this is a problem, but it sounds like we disagree slightly about solutions. Imo, enforcing the immigration law is only part of the solution. New laws have to be created (or existing laws beefed up) that deter companies from hiring illegal labour. And if you really want to solve the problem long term, something has to be done about the troubles in Mexico.

I agree with you about the subsidies, though.

Edited by Kevin Street, 10 October 2003 - 02:08 PM.


#32 HubcapDave

HubcapDave

    Bald is Beautiful!

  • Islander
  • 1,333 posts

Posted 10 October 2003 - 03:18 PM

Quote

2. FREEZE SPENDING AND LAUNCH AUDIT OF THE STATE BUDGET

Looks like Ahnuld's getting off to a good start on this.

http://www.bayarea.c...ews/6980354.htm

This lady looks like she has a good track record of finding the pork and trimming it.

#33 Nikcara

Nikcara

    confused little imp

  • Islander
  • 3,500 posts

Posted 10 October 2003 - 04:32 PM

Ok, here's my take on Arnold:

Bustemante is still lt. gov.
democrats are majority
several women are planning on sueing him for sexual harassment

how is he going to be getting anything done again?  He'll blame everything that goes wrong on the democracts, take credit for everything else...
and still won't get things like the car tax repealed.  Or get any more money out of Indian gaming reserves unless the they decide to give him some, and I don't really see that happening
We have fourty million reasons for failure, but not a single excuse  -- Rudyard Kipling

Develop compassion for your enemies, that is genuine compassion.  Limited compassion cannot produce this altruism.  -- H. H. the Dalai Lama

#34 HubcapDave

HubcapDave

    Bald is Beautiful!

  • Islander
  • 1,333 posts

Posted 10 October 2003 - 04:53 PM

Nikcara, on Oct 10 2003, 02:32 PM, said:

several women are planning on sueing him for sexual harassment
Really?

I haven't heard anything about lawsuits!

#35 Rov Judicata

Rov Judicata

    Crassly Irresponsible and Indifferent

  • Islander
  • 15,720 posts

Posted 10 October 2003 - 05:34 PM

Kevin-- We're of the same mind, more or less, that deporting illegals would have short-term problems and long-term benefits. I thought you were advocating a position that you weren't (namely, that illegal immigrants do work that Americans simply won't under any circumstances). Sorry about that. :).
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#36 Kevin Street

Kevin Street
  • Islander
  • 6,256 posts

Posted 10 October 2003 - 05:48 PM

Hey, no problem. :) And anyway, I used your post as an excuse to massively 'jack the thread, so I should be apologizing, actually. :blush:

As for the lawsuits, can they actually go forward? I remember an episode of "West Wing" where they said you couldn't sue a sitting President, so maybe the position of Governor is similar?

#37 Rov Judicata

Rov Judicata

    Crassly Irresponsible and Indifferent

  • Islander
  • 15,720 posts

Posted 10 October 2003 - 05:50 PM

Kevin Street, on Oct 10 2003, 03:48 PM, said:

As for the lawsuits, can they actually go forward? I remember an episode of "West Wing" where they said you couldn't sue a sitting President, so maybe the position of Governor is similar?
Thanks. :).

That's an excellent point (and West Wing got their facts right; you can't sue a sitting president).

I honestly have no idea. However, my instinct is that he *can* be sued, or else we would have heard people fretting about it before the election. Could be wrong, though.
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#38 CJ AEGIS

CJ AEGIS

    Warship Guru!

  • Islander
  • 6,847 posts

Posted 10 October 2003 - 05:59 PM

HubcapDave, on Oct 10 2003, 08:18 PM, said:

This lady looks like she has a good track record of finding the pork and trimming it.
Former Pataki Staff eh?

Quote

Kevin Street: Many industries are mechanized, but that machinery costs a lot to maintain and replace when it becomes obsolete. Given the choice, I suspect many farms and agribusiness operations (even in states far from the border), would replace many of their machines with illegal migrant labour, if that switch significantly lowered costs and there were no real penalties.

You know you are making me dredge up things I haven’t covered or done in years.  No fair!  Farm machinery while often expensive isn’t so expensive that you can make a larger profit with cheap labor.  I happened to grow up on a dairy farm with hopelessly antiquated machinery and where everything was done in the labor-intensive manner.  You just can’t turn a large profit with that type of operation.  Especially when you are dealing with some of the very technical approaches that are being applied to agriculture.  You just are not going to turn out any type of profit without adopting modern practices and machinery unless you are in a narrow niche market.  Consider how much corn you can pick with a good combine in a day?  You’d need hundreds of workers working all day just to equal a few hours of work by one of those monsters.  You just will find that you have neither the time nor the resources and that the machinery is the far better solution.        


Quote

Kevin Street: I agree with you about the subsidies, though.

The farm subsidies aren’t helping the situation in the least bit.  They are just creating a welfare industry out of the most essential base of our economy.  Just we have to invade Canada next time you guys try to sneak though illegal ones. :angel: ;)
"History has proven too often and too recently that the nation which relaxes its defenses invites attack."
        -Fleet Admiral Nimitz
"Their sailors say they should have flight pay and sub pay both -- they're in the air half the time, under the water the other half""
        - Ernie Pyle: Aboard a DE

#39 Norville

Norville
  • Islander
  • 4,501 posts

Posted 10 October 2003 - 08:28 PM

I think I should refrain from talking about illegals, because even though I want something done about the problem (and nothing probably will be, because it's too massive and difficult), and I could rant about the situation, I chose for some reason to try to balance the various viewpoints and toss out a few almost-tolerant ideas (even though I pretty much *don't* tolerate the situation). Sort of playing devil's advocate, and trying not to turn people off by ranting in what some take to be a racist manner. ;)

Quote

I am completely and absolutely unsympathetic to ANYONE who makes a living by employing people for less than minimum wage.

Hell, yeah, Rhea.

Quote

As far as I'm concerned people who use illegal labor deserve to go out of business. Period.

You mentioned all the illegals hanging out on the streets, waiting for someone to drive by and give them work. I could almost say that allowing some of them to work at least gets them off the streets. But the pay would be crud. Hmm... I wouldn't have a problem with someone going through some of the streets of San Rafael, for example, and rounding those guys up to expel them, because loitering like that tends to lead to criminal activity... It gets complicated, though.

Quote

We're of the same mind, more or less, that deporting illegals would have short-term problems and long-term benefits. I thought you were advocating a position that you weren't (namely, that illegal immigrants do work that Americans simply won't under any circumstances).

Yes, I agree with the short-term problems and long-term benefits. And before you get after me for having mentioned it, there are a lot of American citizens who *won't* do that sort of work, and maybe I see a heck of a lot of them because I live in an area infested with spoiled brats. :rolleyes:

Eh, I'll make people thankful and shut up about this. ;)
"The dew has fallen with a particularly sickening thud this morning."
- Marvin the Paranoid Android, "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy"

Rules for Surviving an Autocracy
Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
http://www.nybooks.c...s-for-survival/

#40 Rhea

Rhea

  • Islander
  • 16,433 posts

Posted 12 October 2003 - 12:51 PM

Javert Rovinski, on Oct 10 2003, 03:50 PM, said:

Kevin Street, on Oct 10 2003, 03:48 PM, said:

As for the lawsuits, can they actually go forward? I remember an episode of "West Wing" where they said you couldn't sue a sitting President, so maybe the position of Governor is similar?
Thanks. :).

That's an excellent point (and West Wing got their facts right; you can't sue a sitting president).

I honestly have no idea. However, my instinct is that he *can* be sued, or else we would have heard people fretting about it before the election. Could be wrong, though.
Arnold isn't President, last time I looked.  :eek2:  :eek2:
The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH



Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: California, Arnold Schwarzenegger, 2003

0 user(s) are browsing this forum

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users