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"Ex-gay" backslides...

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#1 QueenTiye

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Posted 16 October 2003 - 10:00 AM

Ok.  I'm ASKING that everyone who reads this thread be respectful of one another, kind to one another, and openminded.  

I'm FURTHER asking that EVERYONE who reads this thread be forgiving to the subject of this thread - not because he deserves it (not mine to judge) but because our anger at HIM could easily turn toward anger at one another.


http://www.sovo.com/...ional/exgay.cfm

A poster boy for the "ex-gay" movement has returned to homosexual practices, recklessly endangering others in the process.  Note that this is very old news (August, I believe).

I posted this mainly because I'd like some more info on the "ex gay" ministries - what the idea behind it is, and what behaviors DO these ministries advocate for "ex-gays?"  However - the topic is open to all civil, respectful discourse.

QT

Edited by QueenTiye, 16 October 2003 - 04:06 PM.

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#2 Rhea

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Posted 16 October 2003 - 10:53 AM

Here's the American Family Association's web site:

http://www.afa.net/

And here's a link to their "homosexual agenda" pages:

http://www.afa.net/h...ticle.asp?id=81

I love their article titles:

Quote

The Deception and Desensitization of America's Youth
"Gay" activists target America's children and seek their help in quest of "tolerance" and "acceptance"

Rather than attempt to comment I'll just quote them:

Quote

An Organization with a "Passion" for Children
On Wednesday, April 9, 2003, the daily routine of public schools and colleges across America will once again come to a halt as a minority of administrators and students demand America's approval and acceptance of the homosexual lifestyle.
What should be more appropriately called the "Day of Disruption," the 8th annual "Day of Silence" will be sponsored by GLSEN, the Gay Lesbian and Straight Education Network.

...

GLSEN in well known for organizing "Gay/Straight Alliances" (GSAs), better known as "gay" clubs, within public schools. They also establish "Safe Zones" for sexually confused students - rooms marked by an inverted pink triangle.

The "gay" pink icon indicates students can go and openly speak to that teacher or administrator about their same-sex attractions. Rather than sharing the truth that no one is born "gay," that in most cases homosexuality develops in one's childhood and that complete change to "healthy heterosexuality" is completely possible, the students are mislead.

"The "gay" or homo-sympathetic counselor, in many cases following GLSEN guidelines, will usually affirm the questioning youths' 'gay' feelings and encourage them down the homosexual path. These counselors will then often refer the students to outside homosexual organizations and 'gay' clubs - without parental knowledge or consent.

Unfortunately for many of these children, this will be the beginning of the end.

...

The Sound of Silence
Participants in the "Day of Silence" are instructed to refuse to talk throughout the entire school day. Rather than speaking, the protestors are encouraged to hand out flyers explaining their "silence for sin."

Openly "gay" principals, teachers, students and sympathizers will lead the homosexual offensive by flooding the school hallways with posters and signs demanding the acceptance and tolerance of an immoral, deviant lifestyle.

At many schools, the rainbow flag - a symbol of "gay" and lesbian rebellion - will be hoisted, proudly flying for the entire day underneath America's stars and stripes. Students will also don their graphic and offensive shirts, billboarding the aberrant message, even louder than ever.

Finally at the end of the day's mayhem, students and administrators will be joined by "gay" supporters and guest speakers, converging in a variety of closing ceremonies called "Breaking the Silence," boasting of their message of sin.

...

...

Christians have remained silent for far too long. While many godly men, women, churches and organizations continually answer the call to speak out against the promotion of immorality, sin and the murder of the unborn - it's not enough. 43 million murdered babies since Roe vs. Wade proves our failure as the church of Jesus Christ. How many more children need to be sacrificed on the altar of homosexuality?

What Would Jesus Do?
Jesus never "tolerated" or "accepted" sin. While His response to sin was swift and sometimes harsh, His motive was always one of unconditional love.

Jesus didn't "pussy foot" around, fearful He may "offend" someone or worried He may appear "hate-filled," "intolerant" or "bigoted." No, Jesus called it like it was: sin is sin is sin. Many times He openly exhibited a holy, righteous anger and zeal for "His Father's business."

Jesus rebuked and exposed - always offering hope, redemption and reconciliation - "…go and sin no more." It's high time Christians - followers and Ambassadors of Christ - did the same.

The Gospel: the Truth That Sets Us Free
As a former homosexual, my heart's desire is to share the truth about homosexuality with the world - especially the youth. Maybe I can spare a few from what I went through, maybe even save a few lives from the death sentence of AIDS. I've buried too many friends in the ground already.

I was a man once trapped and deceived by the "gay" lifestyle until I was 28 years old. Many of my 100+ partners a dead today from AIDS and it's a miracle that I'm even alive. I know it was the Lord who spared me from infection with HIV.

Thank God for the Christian who came to my door in 1990 with a Bible in her hand. She was not afraid to confront me and my homosexual sin with the only thing that could set me free: the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm eternally grateful to her for not buying into the false gospel of "L-U-V" today called "tolerance and acceptance." I'm sure my wife and two little children today would thank her as well.
..
The truth is no one is born "gay" - no one. In most all cases one's homosexuality has everything to do with childhood. But most importantly, Jesus Christ offers hope and complete deliverance. Complete change is completely possible!


(Stephen Bennett is an official spokesman for "Truth Without Interruption Day," the pro-family counter to GLSEN's "Day of Silence." For further information or resources on what you can do in your community to take a pro-active stand against the promotion of homosexuality, please call (203) 926-6960 or visit www.SBMinistries.org.)

So right away it's inferred by the article's title that the only "passion" involved is sinful and perverted. The rest of the article speaks for itself.

Edited by Rhea, 16 October 2003 - 03:16 PM.

The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
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When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#3 Drew

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Posted 16 October 2003 - 11:16 AM

QT, you might enjoy reading This Article.

Here's one pertinent portion that comes near the end:

Quote

Q: Looking at it from your knee-jerk point of view, I would start wondering if the word 'homosexual' really even means anything. That is, if all sexual desire is wrong except sex between one man and one woman in marriage, why differentiate between gay sex and straight sex outside of marriage?

A: Well, funny you should mention that. One thread feeding into that discussion is post-modernist: sex defined totally by the individual, and the borders of sexual 'correctness' being basically non-existent. Michael Foucault, if I understand him, seemed to lean heavily that direction. (He died of AIDS, a fact some use to discredit him... too easy, I'm thinking.)

A Christian ex-gay, John Smid, has explored that idea from a different angle, more along the lines of your question. According to his reasoning (quoted from a recent [June 2001] newsletter):

   Our belief is based upon three foundational truths.

    Truth One: There is no such thing as a "gay" or "homosexual" person -- only homosexual attraction/behavior. Accordingly, there can be no "change" from an identity that never existed in the first place.

    Truth Two: The truth for most men and women who struggle with homosexual behavior is that they WILL, at times, continue to experience attractions or even struggle with those attractions in large and small ways for a lifetime. It is often misleading and harmful to share vaguely of "total" deliverance without mentioning the normal, on-going struggles with temptations ALL believers have.

    Truth Three: God sees homosexuality as sin -- like any other -- and desires us to apply the same biblical model to it that we would to any other sin. His real solution for deliverance and healing is based on repentance and obedience -- finding freedom in Jesus Christ.


Q: Smid sounds as whacked as you are.

A: He's likely more normal than I am, at least I hope so. I know him well, and can say that his own story is no reactionary tale. For a printed version of it, see the new book edited by Bob Davies, Portraits of Freedom: 14 People Who Came Out of Homosexuality. His online 'testimony' can be found here as can the stories of others. These stories aren't pie in the sky, 'everything is wonderful now' stories. But they are encouraging for anyone currently wanting to find a different life outside the homosexual world.

And here's another from the middle:


Quote

Traditional Christian theology suggests two paths for those struggling with homosexual desire, just as it does for those struggling with other forms of sexuality: one, the successful movement into a monogamous heterosexual marriage; the other, a sense of calling and/or commitment to celebacy. It must be said, however, that neither of these options is either 'instant' or easy. Marriage, for instance, may be the absolute worst option for a person who has failed to work through his/her same-sex desires and issues behind those desires. Many such marriages have ended in disaster.

Psychology/Biology: On the other hand, there is evidence that many homosexuals -- including those who percieved themselves solely as gay from their earliest days -- have successfully transitioned into monogamous heterosexual marriages. Though Masters and Johnson were blasted for their findings, they did limited studies that seem to support the idea that gays highly interested in change can succeed (this outside any religious context, apparently). Such studies merely add fuel to the ongoing debate within the medical and science fields regarding homosexuals' ability to 'change' or 'convert' (the latter was a term Newsweek used for a cover story on the subject). Elizabeth Moberly and, more recently, Joseph Nicolosi and other therapists use what has become known as 'reparative therapy' to deal with the issue of homosexuality, though only for those gays interested in changing their gender. Exodus, International, an umbrella organization of 'ex-gays' and ministries to gays, also offers compelling though anecdotal evidence for the possiblity of change. John Money's twin studies, on the other hand, were said to 'prove' homosexuality was innate rather than learned behavior (they have, of course, been challenged!). I'm not going to further delve into the medical / psychological / scientific data, as it is quite daunting for the layman, and usually is 'spun' according to whatever position the spinner holds on homosexuality's correctness.

I would note, however, that homosexual change toward heterosexuality should not be expected to include complete cessation of all homosexual thoughts. Such an idea agrees with both therapeutic models and theological understanding of the nature of temptation. That is, even as Christians who successfully left life-dominating sinful lifestyles (particularly sexually immoral lifestyles), we are often reminded of them both by memories and by 'triggers' (a snatch of music from the 'old days' or even the smell of certain perfume). This is not the equivalent of being trapped in those desires still; it merely means we are still being sanctified, rather than the erroneous idea that we have been perfected (placed beyond temptation's reach) in this life.

The whole article--a sort of self-interview--is a very good, and I feel very Christian, approach to the topic of homosexuality.
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#4 Josh

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Posted 16 October 2003 - 11:58 AM

Those articles frankly make me SICK.
"THE UNICORNS ARE NOT TO BE TRIFLED WITH!" - John Burke.

#5 Drew

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Posted 16 October 2003 - 12:01 PM

Josh, on Oct 16 2003, 11:58 AM, said:

Those articles frankly make me SICK.
Which?
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#6 Rhea

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Posted 16 October 2003 - 03:17 PM

How about all of the above?  :barf: The article you quoted makes them sound like drug addicts, who can give up the stuff, but occasionally backslide into sin and perversion.  :eek2:

Edited by Rhea, 16 October 2003 - 03:18 PM.

The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
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When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#7 Blondie

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Posted 16 October 2003 - 03:47 PM

Quote

  Our belief is based upon three foundational truths.

    Truth One: There is no such thing as a "gay" or "homosexual" person -- only homosexual attraction/behavior. Accordingly, there can be no "change" from an identity that never existed in the first place.

Ok, I'll buy that...EXCEPT...very many homosexuals simply have brain structure opposite the sex of their bodies.  Complicated subject, but it happens somewhat often.  Their brain is telling them to be attracted to what it perceives to be the opposite sex, even though their body is the same sex as the attractor.  Riddle me that, Batman.  The brain is the identity.


Quote

Truth Two: The truth for most men and women who struggle with homosexual behavior is that they WILL, at times, continue to experience attractions or even struggle with those attractions in large and small ways for a lifetime. It is often misleading and harmful to share vaguely of "total" deliverance without mentioning the normal, on-going struggles with temptations ALL believers have.

The deliverance spoken of here is called "Aversion Therapy."  It's Behavioral in construction, and teaches a gay to become averted to homosexual desires.  It's used also on pedophiles, to a much, much lesser degree of success, I might add.

Quote

Truth Three: God sees homosexuality as sin -- like any other -- and desires us to apply the same biblical model to it that we would to any other sin. His real solution for deliverance and healing is based on repentance and obedience -- finding freedom in Jesus Christ.

I'm Bi, and the God I worship loves me.  Haven't heard a peep outta him on the subject. So there.

Edited by TrancesHuggyPillow, 16 October 2003 - 03:48 PM.

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#8 Drew

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Posted 16 October 2003 - 03:56 PM

Rhea, on Oct 16 2003, 03:17 PM, said:

How about all of the above?  :barf: The article you quoted makes them sound like drug addicts, who can give up the stuff, but occasionally backslide into sin and perversion.
Well, hey, the topic is about views on "Ex-gay ministries." That should be expected.  :Oo:  Considering the source, I felt Jon Trott's article was very compassionate and saw homosexuals as people--and people who could actually love and be in love with their partners--rather than people with some sort of disease. You could disagree with it because it's a Christian viewpoint, but not because it belittles homosexuals. I also thought this was a particularly strong indictment of our culture:

Quote

The fact that sexual lust by "straight" males for women is not only encouraged, but celebrated, in American culture is disgusting to me and to any thinking Christian. When Jerry Kirk, in writing about homosexuality, spent the first half of his book going after the straight church for our own sexual hypocrisy, I thought it brilliant.

It was with trepidation that I ventured into this thread at all, knowing that my viewpoint will simply be shouted down. I am thoroughly bored with the subject of homosexuality anyway.

Edited by Drew, 16 October 2003 - 03:58 PM.

"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#9 Han

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Posted 16 October 2003 - 04:02 PM

Josh, on Oct 16 2003, 04:58 PM, said:

Those articles frankly make me SICK.
I agree..they sound like a hate group cloaked in religion to me. Just my opinion.
Han

#10 Lady of Mystery

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Posted 16 October 2003 - 04:39 PM

"I'm Bi, and the God I worship loves me. Haven't heard a peep outta him on the subject. So there. "

I'm curious.  Why do you think that God would love you 'less' because of your sexual desires?

Most believers I know who believe in the God of Creation/Bible, (and I'm assuming you are referring to the same God since you used a 'capital G')don't believe that sexual desires, preference, orientation has anything to do with God's love.

Kornfused here  :blink:

#11 Bad Wolf

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Posted 16 October 2003 - 04:39 PM

^

Word.

QT, a question:

Quote

A poster boy for the "ex-gay" movement has returned to homosexual practices, recklessly endangering others in the process.

Is this language yours or from the link?
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#12 Kevin Street

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Posted 16 October 2003 - 04:42 PM

Lady of Mystery, on Oct 16 2003, 03:39 PM, said:

Most believers I know who believe in the God of Creation/Bible, (and I'm assuming you are referring to the same God since you used a 'capital G')don't believe that sexual desires, preference, orientation has anything to do with God's love.
I think you and THP agree with each other here. That's the point she was making.

#13 Lady of Mystery

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Posted 16 October 2003 - 04:46 PM

Well Kevin, perhaps we are.  I guess I just got confused because of Trance's response to this quote:

Quote

Truth Three: God sees homosexuality as sin -- like any other -- and desires us to apply the same biblical model to it that we would to any other sin. His real solution for deliverance and healing is based on repentance and obedience -- finding freedom in Jesus Christ.

For me, and many other believers,  the God we worship loves ALL, unconditionally. It has nothing to do with sex, race, creed, color, etc.

#14 Blondie

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Posted 16 October 2003 - 05:43 PM

Yes, we agree.

Lemmee rephrase...I don't think I'm going to Hell for it.

Edited by TrancesHuggyPillow, 16 October 2003 - 05:44 PM.

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#15 QueenTiye

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Posted 16 October 2003 - 06:46 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Oct 16 2003, 05:39 PM, said:

^

Word.

QT, a question:

Quote

A poster boy for the "ex-gay" movement has returned to homosexual practices, recklessly endangering others in the process.

Is this language yours or from the link?
Got the link actually from an anti-"Ex-Gay" web site.  Wanted to know what this was all about.  The guy in question is someone who preached this ex-gay doctrine and also was part of a massive ad campaign promoting ex-gay services.  SO - I don't remember if I read the term "poster boy" or not, but it fits.  They (the anti ex-gay folks) used the term as an epithet, I think.  I don't intend it that way - it's just the facts of the case.

Reckless endangerment is my term.  I didn't like at all that the guy knew he was HIV positive and nonetheless got involved with men he didn't share that crucial bit of info with.

Having said all of that - I agree mostly with Drew that the article he posted treats people like people.  That people think something is wrong with the underlying philosophy is one thing, but I'm quite capable of distinguishing people's attitudes toward people from their attitudes toward behavior.


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#16 Bad Wolf

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Posted 16 October 2003 - 07:12 PM

Quote

Reckless endangerment is my term. I didn't like at all that the guy knew he was HIV positive and nonetheless got involved with men he didn't share that crucial bit of info with.

So again, just so I can be clear where you're coming from before responding, do you know that this person is engaging in unprotected sex and/or that he has not told his partner(s) that he has HIV?

If the answer is yes then I assume that you would feel that a heterosexual person who is HIV positive and had unprotected sex and/or did not inform his or her partner(s) of his or her condition is also behaving recklessly?

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#17 Lady of Mystery

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Posted 16 October 2003 - 07:44 PM

Trance, I don't know what you said originally because you edited your post, however, we DO agree it seems.

The God I serve wouldn't send you to hell for it either.  :)

#18 Blondie

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Posted 16 October 2003 - 09:15 PM

^I edited for a typo...kinda anal about those...:D

Other than that, the original message is all there.

Edited to add: oh, call me THP or Jen...I'm cool with either...:)

Edited by TrancesHuggyPillow, 16 October 2003 - 09:18 PM.

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#19 Lady of Mystery

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Posted 16 October 2003 - 10:51 PM

Alrighty then Jen.  

With regards to the typo--um I am so guilty of making those---my fingers have minds of their own and they do what they wish, inspite of the fact that my mind tells them what they type isn't right.  Stuborn little fingers!  :p

#20 Jaimie

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Posted 16 October 2003 - 11:52 PM

Josh, on Oct 16 2003, 04:58 PM, said:

Those articles frankly make me SICK.
I agree. I'm so very very sick of the intolerance, hatred, bigotry, and ignorance.

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