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Bush orders Shiavo tube reinserted

Teri Shiavo Florida Jeb Bush

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#21 emsparks

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Posted 22 October 2003 - 12:18 PM

^^ I agree totallyÖ

Anyone who has suffered heatstroke: will tell you that dehydration is not a peaceful way to go. Itís not the heat, that kills you in heatstroke itís the dehydration.

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Edited by emsparks, 22 October 2003 - 12:33 PM.

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#22 GiGi

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Posted 22 October 2003 - 12:25 PM

I agree Lil.  It is the fact that she has to be "put to death" instead of her just dying because she is almost dead anyway.  And perhaps dehydration is peaceful if someone is not awake at all.  But if we turn this around and they assist Terri by injecting her with an overdose of morphine what happens then?  Would someone be on trial for murder?

It is a very difficult situation.
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#23 Bad Wolf

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Posted 22 October 2003 - 12:30 PM

Assisted death is a very sticky issue.

But in my opinion depriving someone of food and water so that they can slowly die of dehydration is horrible.  

OTOH if giving a lethal injection were legal then she'd be dead already and there wouldn't have been time for the governer to intervene.
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#24 BizzyD17

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Posted 22 October 2003 - 12:44 PM

This is just my $0.02
I wouldn't wanna live that way,it's not really living anyway,being just a shell of what you used to be and having to have people and machines control your bodily functions,I would never want that.I don't think anyone should have to 'live' like that for 13 years.

If the husband is just after money,then they should retract his rights as a husband to make decisions for his wife.I heard he already has a fiance,so that should've tipped the courts off that something might be kinda fishy  :suspect:

#25 Bad Wolf

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Posted 22 October 2003 - 12:46 PM

Well she's been this way for 13 years so I can't fault the guy for moving on with some aspects of his life.

As Zack said, make a living will.

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#26 Lady of Mystery

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Posted 22 October 2003 - 01:32 PM

I know in working in the Health Care Field that there are a multitude of issues involved.  A physician takes an "oath" to promote life at all costs, and to introduce a 'drug' with the sole purpose of discontinuing life is against that oath.  Removing a 'feeding tube', or taking a patient 'off-life support' is a tricky following of that oath, but it can also be applied as a 'test' of the brain's ability to show if it is 'trying' to function and just needs a little help, or if it has been damaged beyond repair.  (Just my pov from much of what I have seen in the medical field, but I am by no means an expert in the area.

I sort of agree with Rhea here.  

I don't know the 'complete' story, and some of what the husband has done 'appears' to be very questionable.

The BEST solution to these problems in the future I think and totally agree with is to obtain a "living will" so that the wishes of the patient are clearly spelled out and will be honored by both the 'medical' and the 'legal'.

#27 Mary Rose

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Posted 22 October 2003 - 01:35 PM

All I'll say is that that kind of *living* is not what I would call living at all.  I wouldn't want it for a family member and I wouldn't want it for myself.  

I think living wills are a good idea.  I am also in favor of assisted suicide.
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#28 Godeskian

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Posted 22 October 2003 - 01:39 PM

Question, how do I have a living will made out, how do i make it binding?
Does it require a law person of some type like a regular one?

Frankly, wills aren't something i've ever given even a moments thought to

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#29 Rhea

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Posted 22 October 2003 - 02:41 PM

GiGi, on Oct 21 2003, 08:52 PM, said:

Rhea, I really do agree with you in theory.  I have really only the family's side to look at, but if what they say is true they haven't had the chance to teach her to eat.  The husband has blocked them.

Again, it really does depend on if what they say is true.  But if it is then, whoa!  And we (my husband) have an ex from hades, I know first hand how some people can push past all limits of what most people would consider normal human behavior into the twilight zone of insanity and selfish, stupid behavior.

PS, well said Connie!
I suspect that, like most acrimonius situations, there is some merit to both sides.  I strongly suspect that the trouble started when the husband finally got seriously involved with someone else. If I understood correctly, there were at least 6 years which passed before he started seeing this other woman (by the family's admission), plenty of time to find out if their daughter could feed herself or had a chance for improvement. The majority of improvement in cases like this happens in first few months to year after the accident. So if she was going to gain function or cognition, she would have done so long ago.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is I see this as something building up over a period of time and is probably equal parts the husband being jerky and the family indulging in wishful thinking.

Edited by Rhea, 22 October 2003 - 02:43 PM.

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#30 Rhea

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Posted 22 October 2003 - 02:42 PM

Godeskian, on Oct 22 2003, 11:39 AM, said:

Question, how do I have a living will made out, how do i make it binding?
Does it require a law person of some type like a regular one?

Frankly, wills aren't something i've ever given even a moments thought to
Gode, I'd google for living will and your state/country. The laws are different from state to state, but you should be able to find a form online that would be binding in your state.

Also, in California anyway, they have to be renewed every five years to be valid.
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#31 Themis

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Posted 22 October 2003 - 04:16 PM

Rhea, on Oct 22 2003, 07:42 PM, said:

Also, in California anyway, they have to be renewed every five years to be valid.
Not in Tennessee (though lotsof things are a little backward here...).  Our Living Will form (I'm a legal secretary and we basically do estate planning) has reference to a Tennessee statute.  It contains wishes regarding donating organs also.  It has to be signed by two witnesses and notarized.

Part of our "package" with a will is a living will, a power of attorney and a power of attorney for health care - the latter also a useful thing to have, appointing someone else to make health care decisions for you if you are unable.

As to regular wills, if you have any kind of assets, you ought to have one.  Everyone probably ought to have a living will and also a health care power of attorney if they have someone they would want to make these decisions.

The worst thing about this case to me is the starvation issue...   our form living will includes a provision to authorize or not authorize the withholding or withdrawal of artificially provided food, water or other nourishment or fluids.  It's because I can't make up my mind about that part that I haven't signed one....  I'm fine with this part:

"If at any time I should have a terminal condition and my attending physician has determined there is no reasonable medical expectation of recovery and which, as a medical probability, will result in my death, regardless of the use or discontinuance of medical treatment implemented for the purpose of sustaining life, or the life process, I direct that medical care be withheld or withdrawn, and that I be permitted to die naturally with only the administration of medications or the performance of any medical procedure deemed necessary to provide me with comfortable care or to alleviate pain."

That's quite different from statements about withholding treatment because you're a vegetable...... I'd like to know more about whether it's painless or not if you're in that state... because if it isn't, it sounds extremely inhumane.

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#32 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 22 October 2003 - 04:37 PM

I just finished watching the local news, and on the segment about this case, they had medical experts say she was "Brain Dead" with no hope of recovery. Which contradicts the family's website. Obviously the family is going to put what they believe to be true up...As Lil said, if a family member in this condition looked at me and smiled, it would be tough to remove the feeding tube.

I don't think we have all the information here....So it's hard to make a call on what should be done.

All I can say is my family was in a very similar situation with my Mother. She had suffered a stroke and was declared brain dead. She didn't have a Living Will, but my family knew that she wouldn't want to live like that...So the decision was made to take her off life support. Toughest thing we ever had to do.

Which is why if Terri IS brain dead, I think they should allow her to pass. IMO, it's cruel to extend life...when that life means you're a shell of what you once were.
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#33 Bad Wolf

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Posted 22 October 2003 - 04:40 PM

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{LOTS}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

I can't even imagine.:(

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#34 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 22 October 2003 - 04:40 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Oct 22 2003, 05:40 PM, said:

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{LOTS}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

I can't even imagine.:(

Lil
Thanks.
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Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

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#35 Drew

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Posted 22 October 2003 - 04:42 PM

LORD of the SWORD, on Oct 22 2003, 04:37 PM, said:

I just finished watching the local news, and on the segment about this case, they had medical experts say she was "Brain Dead" with no hope of recovery. Which contradicts the family's website. Obviously the family is going to put what they believe to be true up...As Lil said, if a family member in this condition looked at me and smiled, it would be tough to remove the feeding tube.
Remember that the husband will only allow his approved physicians to see Terri. Other physicians have testified under oath that Terri could be taught to feed herself if giventhe chance for therapy--which her husband withholds.

Also, I wouldn't trust the news media to do anything but play this up as a sensational "right-to-die" case. (Anyone see ABC's coverage of this? I'm told it was laughably slanted.) The media have ignored this case for years (remember, it's been in court for years) and are only now finding the entertaiment value in it.

Edited by Drew, 22 October 2003 - 04:45 PM.

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#36 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 22 October 2003 - 04:47 PM

Drew, on Oct 22 2003, 05:42 PM, said:

Remember that the husband will only allow his approved physicians to see Terri. Other physicians have testified under oath that Terri could be taught to feed herself if giventhe chance for therapy--which her husband withholds.

Also, I wouldn't trust the news media to do anything but play this up as a sensational "right-to-die" case. (Anyone see ABC's coverage of this? I'm told it was laughably slanted.)
I haven't seen the ABC's report of it, but it doesn't surprise me that they would slant it.

IMO what should be done here is this: Have a panel of impartial doctors, preferably ones that specialize in these types of cases, come in and examine Terri. And if this panel declares that Terri IS brain dead, then allow her to pass. IF OTOH them declare that with therapy and rehab she could learn to feed herself, and live a somewhat normal life, then by all means put her into therapy and rehab ASAP.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

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Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

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#37 HubcapDave

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Posted 22 October 2003 - 05:04 PM

Has anyone else besides Fox News played the actual video of this woman?

I'm no medical expert, but when I first saw video of this woman, the last thing she looked like was "brain dead". She seemed to be quite aware of her surroundings. Besides, if this woman was truly brain dead, wouldn't that mean that her body would not be able to function at all without life support equipment?

#38 MuseZack

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Posted 22 October 2003 - 05:17 PM

HubcapDave, on Oct 22 2003, 10:04 PM, said:

Has anyone else besides Fox News played the actual video of this woman?

I'm no medical expert, but when I first saw video of this woman, the last thing she looked like was "brain dead". She seemed to be quite aware of her surroundings. Besides, if this woman was truly brain dead, wouldn't that mean that her body would not be able to function at all without life support equipment?
You're right, you aren't a medical expert; none of us are (unless someone isn't telling us something )  Read the Time account to learn about some of the complexities of brain function and how the responses in the video aren't necessarily indicative of conscious function.
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#39 HubcapDave

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Posted 22 October 2003 - 06:52 PM

I wonder why Time didn't put any quotes in from the doctors who disagreed. They play up the fact that the dissents were the Schindler's doctors, but they don't say who the other three were. Presumably, from what someone else said earlier in this thread, they were doctors hired by the husband.

What I get out of this is that they don't really know for sure one way or the other. It's a shame that the husband didn'
t give Terri the chance to recover any of her capabilities that the suggested therapies may have helped her do.

#40 Rhea

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Posted 22 October 2003 - 08:11 PM

LORD of the SWORD, on Oct 22 2003, 02:37 PM, said:

I just finished watching the local news, and on the segment about this case, they had medical experts say she was "Brain Dead" with no hope of recovery. Which contradicts the family's website. Obviously the family is going to put what they believe to be true up...As Lil said, if a family member in this condition looked at me and smiled, it would be tough to remove the feeding tube.

I don't think we have all the information here....So it's hard to make a call on what should be done.

All I can say is my family was in a very similar situation with my Mother. She had suffered a stroke and was declared brain dead. She didn't have a Living Will, but my family knew that she wouldn't want to live like that...So the decision was made to take her off life support. Toughest thing we ever had to do.

Which is why if Terri IS brain dead, I think they should allow her to pass. IMO, it's cruel to extend life...when that life means you're a shell of what you once were.
If you're brain dead, you're dead. What we're talking about is a persistent vegetative state - a whole 'nother ballgame.
The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
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When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH



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