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Bush orders Shiavo tube reinserted

Teri Shiavo Florida Jeb Bush

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#41 sierraleone

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Posted 22 October 2003 - 08:25 PM

LORD of the SWORD, on Oct 22 2003, 01:37 PM, said:

Which is why if Terri IS brain dead, I think they should allow her to pass. IMO, it's cruel to extend life...when that life means you're a shell of what you once were.
I agree, but not through starvation  :crazy: If they think they should take out the feeding tubes, they should end her life more quickly than starvation would take  :glare: I suppose its considered unethical, and probably illegal, to actually "kill" her, but its certainly more humane than letting her die slowly through starvation  :angry:  :angry:  :angry:

The other problems I have with this case are whether she is brain dead or not, because of what we've seen and heard of the husband. But if she is brain-dead or a vegetable with no chance of recovery, this is not the way to let her die.

Edited by sierraleone, 22 October 2003 - 08:26 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#42 Smitty

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Posted 22 October 2003 - 10:27 PM

Most other places I see this being discussed no one dares mention the questionable aspects ie concerning Michael's motives.

I find this odd, why haven't the

Quote

mainstream
news services brought up these questions?
It's treated as the unnameable subject, ye dare not say the name of Jehovah or ye shall be stoned.

Every place I see it reported it plays up the sensational right to die, ven says so in big bold letters: RIGHT TO DIE.

I'm not anti right to die by any means, I'm a big time advocate of living wills.

But to paraphrase the Bard:

Quote

Something's rotten in Denmark.

-cs™

Edited by Smitty, 22 October 2003 - 10:30 PM.


#43 Delvo

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Posted 22 October 2003 - 10:48 PM

No one's willing to mention his motivation? Where in the world is that? All I see is talk about his motivation everywhere, like what's in the woman's best interest doesn't matter if the guy's bad enough, since that's all they talk about instead.

And in all of this, practically nobody seems willing to point out things like the fact that at first he didn't exclude doctors, that came along later... or the fact that there was a REASON why nobody tried therapy at first before he forbade it: because everybody, including all the doctors that saw her before the family was able to dredge up a few that would say what they wanted, knew that it would have been useless because there is actually no hope for her. No, all that's important now is that his fight against the family's denial of reality, without regard for the misery they want her trapped in forever, is reputed (by them) to have taken on some distasteful aspects.

#44 GiGi

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Posted 23 October 2003 - 12:52 AM

Quote

After her initial treatment at Northside Hospital, Mr. Schiavo sued two doctors for Terri's injuries.  A jury awarded Mr. Schiavo $1.2 million, of which $750,000 was placed in trust for Terri's rehabilitative care.  Mr. Schiavo stated at the malpractice trial that he would use that money to take care of Terri for the rest of her life.  He either broke his promise, or lied to the jury.

After the money was deposited in his bank account in February, 1993, Mr. Schiavo immediately changed course, denying his wife the rehabilitative care that would have improved her condition.  He hired "right-to-die" attorney George Felos and began proceedings to try to end Terri's life.  Despite the fact that rehabilitation was ordered for Terri, Michael Schiavo threatened the medical staff assigned to her care with termination of employment if they provided even routine therapy that would help provide comfort to his disabled wife.  At this time, Terri was being fed Jello and was swallowing on her own.  She was speaking words.  She continues to respond with extreme joy upon seeing her parents.  When doctors prompt Terri to open her eyes, she does so.  Terri probably would have made a significant recovery, had she been given the appropriate therapy.  She probably still can, if given the chance.
She was eating jello?!  Swallowing on her own?!  What?!!

I found this here - http://toogoodreport...ff/20030911.htm
"Life is as dear to a mute creature as it is to man. Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not die, so do all creatures." -- HH The Dalai Lama

#45 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 23 October 2003 - 12:55 AM

Delvo, on Oct 22 2003, 11:48 PM, said:

...or the fact that there was a REASON why nobody tried therapy at first before he forbade it: because everybody, including all the doctors that saw her before the family was able to dredge up a few that would say what they wanted, knew that it would have been useless because there is actually no hope for her. No, all that's important now is that his fight against the family's denial of reality, without regard for the misery they want her trapped in forever, is reputed (by them) to have taken on some distasteful aspects.
I'm not sure if you meant it to come across as this or not, but your comments seem to attack the family. If I'm misunderstanding it, I apologize.

However, since my family was in a similar situation, I have to respond.

Saying the "Family's denial of reality, without regard for the misery they want her trapped in forever" is just WRONG!

Do you honestly think that they want their daughter to suffer? Granted, they might be holding onto hope, which in all probability, won't come true...But don't think for one second they haven't considered that she might not recover.

And, if my mother made eye contact and smiled, and moved her head around, I don't know if my family would've made the same decision. I'd like to think they would've, but I can't say for certain. My mother was brain dead after her stroke, no response whatsoever. So it is a different situation.

But to claim that the family actually wants their daughter to suffer, and that they want her trapped like this forever.... :angry:  :angry:  :angry:
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#46 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 23 October 2003 - 01:02 AM

GiGi, on Oct 23 2003, 01:52 AM, said:

She was eating jello?!  Swallowing on her own?!  What?!!

I found this here - http://toogoodreport...ff/20030911.htm
IMO, this information is dubious at best. I find it hard to believe that if it were true, the mainstream media wouldn't have mentioned it. Even though they seem inclined to run with the "RIGHT TO DIE" slogan, I'm sure one of the guests they have had on their shows wouldn't have mentioned this. Especially a guest who was against starving Terri to death.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#47 GiGi

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Posted 23 October 2003 - 01:58 AM

More digging.  This is from a sworn affidavit from a nurse, Carla Sauer Iyer RN who cared for Terri.  I downloaded a pdf of the affidavit and am OCRing it to pick out parts of the statement.  (the PDF is a graphic and not text, so the OCR is making it easy for me to copy parts into this post)

"Terri's medical condition was systematically distorted and misrepresented by Michael. When I worked with her, she uas alert and oriented. Terri spoke on a regular basis while in my presence, saying such things as "mommy," and help me." "Help me" was. in fact, one of her most frequent utterances. I heard her say it hundreds of times. Terri would try to say the word "pain" when she was in discomfort but it would come out more like "pay."  She didn't say the "n" sound very well. During her menses she would indicate her discomfort by saying "pay" and moving her arms toward her lower abdominal
area. Other ways that she would indicate that she was in pain included pursing her lips. grimacing, thrashing in bed, curling her toes, or moving her legs around. She would let you know when she had a bowel movement by flipping up the cover and pulling on her diaper and scooted in bed on her bottom.

When I came into her room and said "Hi, Terri", she would alwaysrecognize my voice and her name, and would turn her head all the way towards me, saying "haaaaiiiii" sort of, as she did. I recognized this as a "hi", which is very close to what it sounded like. The whole sound being only a second or two long. When I told her humorous stories about my life or something I read in the paper, Terri would chuckle sometimes more a giggle or laugh. She would move her whole body upper and lower. Her legs would somtimes fall of the bed, and need to be repositioned. I made numerous entries into the nursing notes in her chart, stating verbatim what she said and her various behaviors, but by my next on-duty shift, the notes would be deleted from her chart. Every time I made a positive entry about any responsiveness of Terri's, someone would remove it after my shift ended.  Michael always demanded to see her chart as soon as he arrived, and would take it in her room with him. I documented Terri's rehab potential well, writing whole pages about Terri's responsiveness. but they would always be deleted by the next time I saw her chart.  The reason I wrote so much was that everybody else seemed to be afraid to make positive entries for fear of their jobs, but I felt very strongly that a nurses job was to accurately record everything we see and hear that bears on a patients condition and their family. I upheld the Nurses Practice Act, and if it cost me my job, I was willing to accept that."

It did in the end cost her her job.  The whole thing is eight pages with much more detail about the husband.

Link to pdf - http://www.cnsnews.c...f/2003/aff2.pdf

Link to more information from caregivers, and more affidavits - http://www.rense.com...al43/helpme.htm
"Life is as dear to a mute creature as it is to man. Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not die, so do all creatures." -- HH The Dalai Lama

#48 GiGi

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Posted 23 October 2003 - 02:08 AM

LORD of the SWORD, on Oct 22 2003, 10:02 PM, said:

IMO, this information is dubious at best. I find it hard to believe that if it were true, the mainstream media wouldn't have mentioned it. Even though they seem inclined to run with the "RIGHT TO DIE" slogan, I'm sure one of the guests they have had on their shows wouldn't have mentioned this. Especially a guest who was against starving Terri to death.
It is in a sworn affidavit signed on August 30, 2003 by Heidi Law.  Apparently the husband, Michael had everyone intimidated to not speak out.

Link -  http://www.cnsnews.c...f/2003/aff3.pdf

If this is all true Michael should be slowly roasted on a spit!!!  :glare:
"Life is as dear to a mute creature as it is to man. Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not die, so do all creatures." -- HH The Dalai Lama

#49 Bad Wolf

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Posted 23 October 2003 - 02:11 AM

An affidavit like that should have prevented the court order.

Unless there were evidence that undermined its credibility which is entirely possible.

Call me a cynic but the fact that it's in an affidavit doesn't make it written in stone.

Don't get me wrong, I'm leaning more and more in favor of what the governer did but I still think there's a ton of info we don't have and a whole bunch of grey.
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#50 GiGi

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Posted 23 October 2003 - 02:21 AM

They seem to be dealing with the same judge over and over and he has been the one allowing the feeding tube to be removed.

I am spending way too much time on this, and have read a lot, just the list of trials and rulings is enough to make me wonder what the hell is going on.

But then I am the one to champion lost causes, abandoned animals and people and I just lost someone very close to me (and another friend this week lost her husband) as far as I am concerned there has been too much death around lately and if any of these facts are true in this case (and I found links through a Google search, not just going by what is on the family site) then damn it, this case needs to be looked at by someone not involved to find out what the truth really is.  Because the more I read, the more it horrifies and astounds me!!!

{{{{{{{{{{{{{Terri Schindler Shiavo}}}}}}}}}}}

edited to add this link, it seems unbiased and has a thorough account of the whole story - http://www.worldnetd...RTICLE_ID=35055

Edited by GiGi, 23 October 2003 - 03:16 AM.

"Life is as dear to a mute creature as it is to man. Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not die, so do all creatures." -- HH The Dalai Lama

#51 Rhea

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Posted 23 October 2003 - 07:47 AM

GiGi, on Oct 22 2003, 11:58 PM, said:

More digging.  This is from a sworn affidavit from a nurse, Carla Sauer Iyer RN who cared for Terri.  I downloaded a pdf of the affidavit and am OCRing it to pick out parts of the statement.  (the PDF is a graphic and not text, so the OCR is making it easy for me to copy parts into this post)
Lil said that giving an affidavit doesn't mean it's true, and she's *so* right.

I'm a nurse, although I never took the exams and worked as one. I've worked around doctors a goodly portion of my life.

Terri's husband may have an agenda, but I have never, ever seen an entire hospital staff lie about a patient's condition or deny them needed care. Quite the opposite. People in the medical profession work very hard, often way beyond what is required, to rehabilitate their patients and give them the best care possible. I absolutely do not believe that the entire medical staff of this facility has entered into some kind of conspiracy with this woman's husband, or that they would knowingly alter medical records. I'm sorry, but my experience of the profession tells me that it's more likely to be 180 degrees in the opposite direction from this nurse's statement.

I'd love to be a fly on the wall, because as sensationalized as this case is, because I suspect we're seeing kernels of truth buried in a dung heap of b*llsh*t.
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#52 Drew

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Posted 23 October 2003 - 09:06 AM

LORD of the SWORD, on Oct 23 2003, 01:02 AM, said:

I find it hard to believe that if it were true, the mainstream media wouldn't have mentioned it.
I don't.

Quote

Even though they seem inclined to run with the "RIGHT TO DIE" slogan, I'm sure one of the guests they have had on their shows wouldn't have mentioned this. Especially a guest who was against starving Terri to death.

Yesterday I was listening to "Focus on the Family." Dobson played an interview he'd done with ABC News. In that interview he related much of the information that GiGi just did. The interviewer ignored those things and kept asking questions about the influence of radio listeners and protestors on the case. In the end, only a six-second soundbite of this interview was broadcast by ABC, a bit where Dobson talked about the grass-roots efforts to save Terri's life. That was it. None of the info about Terri's demonstrated responsiveness was in the broadcast version. As you said, they continued to call it a "right to die" case, with a strong suggestion that Terri's wishes are being denied by the evil right-wingers. (I tend to see it more as a "right to live" case.) I've yet to hear a story in the mainstream media that covers the details of this case. But when an extremely complicated and detailed case like this gets 30 seconds on the nightly news, they're obviously going to give it only a cursory telling. I sympathize with the news media a bit--just a tiny bit--but they've really misrepresented this case.

In a larger sense, it worries me that this action could be taken without having a living will. Is it getting to the point where we may all soon have to have "PLEASE KEEP ME ALIVE!" statements on file just to ensure that some unscrupulous person doesn't kill us when we're the slightest bit unresponsive?

Edited by Drew, 23 October 2003 - 10:20 AM.

"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#53 Rhea

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Posted 23 October 2003 - 10:13 AM

^Drew, what you really need to decide is under what circumstances you would agree that you would WANT to be kept alive and put your papers in order to accommodate that.

If this woman had paid the slightest attention to what MIGHT happen, she could have stipulated beforehand what HER wishes would have been in this situation. She didn't (since most of us subconsciously figure we're going to live forever, I guess - or we think we'll worry about wills and such when we're older).

A living will isn't even necessarily enough. If you're really concerned, draw up medical powers of attorney AND living wills with each other and make clear what your wishes would be in such circumstances.

Personally, I wouldn't want to be kept alive like Terri for 13 years in this condition. That's why my family have already set down what they want done for themselves. I respect people who feel that life should be preserved at any cost, though - and either way, the best way to ensure that this doesn't happen to you is to set out your wishes NOW.

The other thing about doing a living will and/or a medical power of attorney is that it takes the burden for making these decision OFF your loved ones. And it's a heavy load to bear. I wouldn't want my family to agonize over such decisions for me, so I've taken care of it for them.

Edited by Rhea, 23 October 2003 - 10:14 AM.

The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH

#54 GiGi

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Posted 23 October 2003 - 11:32 AM

Drew, on Oct 23 2003, 06:06 AM, said:

As you said, they continued to call it a "right to die" case, with a strong suggestion that Terri's wishes are being denied by the evil right-wingers. (I tend to see it more as a "right to live" case.) I've yet to hear a story in the mainstream media that covers the details of this case. But when an extremely complicated and detailed case like this gets 30 seconds on the nightly news, they're obviously going to give it only a cursory telling. I sympathize with the news media a bit--just a tiny bit--but they've really misrepresented this case.

In a larger sense, it worries me that this action could be taken without having a living will. Is it getting to the point where we may all soon have to have "PLEASE KEEP ME ALIVE!" statements on file just to ensure that some unscrupulous person doesn't kill us when we're the slightest bit unresponsive?
Wow, I didn't know I had joined the "right wing!"

Bottomline, what if any of this is true and some of it has to be, the family has been barred from seeing her, there are three affidavits filed at the end of August this year.  Are all three nurses lying?  Why would they do that.  Why would a nurse let alone three perjure themselves for a vegetable?!!

Also Terri was in a more of a convalescent hospital.  I have worked in those and it is different than a regular hospital.  They are smaller and a whole lot of weird stuff can go on.  I have seen it in the one I worked in, have heard it about ones that people who have had family members in.

If Terrri is indeed as responsive as she is claimed to be then withdrawing hydration is an awful way to kill her.  And it would be that.  Who decides what quality of life is anyway?  As I asked before should my neighbor stop spoon feeding his mother because she is in a wheelchair, can hardly talk or move and is in and out of lucidity?  She is surrounded by family, her son and her grandkids.  And yes she is a burden and she is aware of that at least.  But what to do?  We don't live in a tribal society where the elders are left in the wild (by their choice) to be taken by the elements (or wild animals) as it were.  Again WHAT DO YOU DO - put a gun to her head?

If Terri is really laughing and smiling and looking out the window all day for her mother to come, then someone is home.  And before they subject someone with that much cognitive awareness to a horrible death, this case needs to be looked at more closely.

There is a well known doctor (can't find his name right at this moment, it is on one of the many pages I read) who will work with Terri free of charge to see if she can be more cognitive.

What is the harm in trying, if Terri is such a vegetable she won't notice any attempts anyway.  But if someone else besides specially picked doctors can find out that while she won't be running a marathon, but at least she can eat on her own and perhaps learn to communicate somewhat she can let her wishes to live or die known.  

The jury awared Terri over a million dollars for her care, that money was not so the husband could spend it on lawyers to find a way to kill her.  If the original jury thought she was hopeless why would they award money to give her therapy?  This all makes no sense, that is until one wonders what the husband has to cover up that is driving this so intensely that he controls who is allowed to see her and when.
"Life is as dear to a mute creature as it is to man. Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not die, so do all creatures." -- HH The Dalai Lama

#55 Drew

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Posted 23 October 2003 - 11:49 AM

GiGi, on Oct 23 2003, 11:32 AM, said:

Wow, I didn't know I had joined the "right wing!"
In the minds of people who can only see things in terms of left and right, you probably have. (I suppose someone ought to show you the secret handshake.)

:cool:
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#56 GiGi

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Posted 23 October 2003 - 12:00 PM

Drew, on Oct 23 2003, 08:49 AM, said:

GiGi, on Oct 23 2003, 11:32 AM, said:

Wow, I didn't know I had joined the "right wing!"
In the minds of people who can only see things in terms of left and right, you probably have. (I suppose someone ought to show you the secret handshake.)

:cool:
Do I get a secret decoder ring too?  I want a secret decoder ring!!!  :lol:
"Life is as dear to a mute creature as it is to man. Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not die, so do all creatures." -- HH The Dalai Lama

#57 Bad Wolf

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Posted 23 October 2003 - 12:13 PM

NNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
GIGI DON'T DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If once you give into the Dark Side™ FOREVAH will it dominate your destiny!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


:eek:  :eek2:  :wideeyed:  :eek2:  :eek:
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#58 Drew

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Posted 23 October 2003 - 12:19 PM

GiGi, on Oct 23 2003, 12:00 PM, said:

Do I get a secret decoder ring too?  I want a secret decoder ring!!!  :lol:
Qevax Zber Binygvar!  :cool:
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#59 Lady of Mystery

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Posted 23 October 2003 - 12:23 PM

Rhea, on Oct 23 2003, 07:47 AM, said:

Terri's husband may have an agenda, but I have never, ever seen an entire hospital staff lie about a patient's condition or deny them needed care. Quite the opposite. People in the medical profession work very hard, often way beyond what is required, to rehabilitate their patients and give them the best care possible. I absolutely do not believe that the entire medical staff of this facility has entered into some kind of conspiracy with this woman's husband, or that they would knowingly alter medical records. I'm sorry, but my experience of the profession tells me that it's more likely to be 180 degrees in the opposite direction from this nurse's statement.

I'd love to be a fly on the wall, because as sensationalized as this case is, because I suspect we're seeing kernels of truth buried in a dung heap of b*llsh*t.
Again I agree with you Rhea.  And if I am not mistaken wasn't Terri under Hospice Care?

If she was, there are rigid rules applying to Hospice.  To place a patient under 'hospice' care requires a great deal of documentation to determine if there is reasonable cause and 'determining diagnosis' that shows there is little hope of medical care for the patient to be restored to life.

Also, if she wasn't under hospice care, there is still the question of 'documentation' from the medical staff that can't be ignored.  Any Extended Care Facility that wishes to remain operational must have good documentation on a daily/hourly basis.  

ALL patients, (whether Medicare, Hospice, Third Party Payor, or Private Pay), must be shown to be receiving all possible and appropriate care for 'determined diagnosis' if they wish to remain a functional facility.  

I also know that 'most' extended care facilities get money from the government with regards to their patient care, UNLESS they are a For Profit organization.  

And I also am beginning to question WHY the AMA hasn't been tracking this case as well, if there is any reason to believe that 'appropriate' documentation has not been made.  If the nurse in question here was 'documenting' her daily routines then if a descrepency shows up, questions would be made regarding the 'determined diagnosis'.

I do believe that there does seem to be questionable 'doubt' with regards to the 'husband's' actions, but then again, with all the 'time' that has evolved, then I question why the AMA, Hospice, and HIPPA hasn't been coming down on this case?

#60 Rhea

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Posted 23 October 2003 - 12:36 PM

I realize that most of you are interested in the battle, not the medical facts, but the article Zack linked to does an excellent job of explaing exactly what a persistent vegetative state is and what it means.

Quote

Patients in a vegetative state do not lie motionless like the floating bodies in the classic 1978 sci-fi movie Coma. They are capable of smiling, crying and turning toward a voice. "There are many, many behaviors that look like conscious behavior that are reflexive or automatic," says Joseph Giacino, associate director of neuropsychology at the JFK Medical Center and the New Jersey Neuro-science Institute in Edison, N.J. After looking at the videos of Terri Schiavo for TIME, Giacino said, "This is not compelling evidence. It's interesting and suggestive. But most of these responses could occur in a vegetative state."

Quote

Giacino was the lead author of a landmark 2002 paper that defined a condition known as the "minimally conscious state." Minimally conscious patients are more responsive to the world than vegetative patients and, significantly, retain the potential to become fully conscious. The famous 1996 case of the "coma cop" involved a police officer who was almost certainly minimally conscious and briefly recovered consciousness after seven years. Schiavo's parents tried but failed to establish that this was their daughter's condition.

Without a feeding tube, Schiavo could live about 10 days. Death will come from dehydration, not starvation. While no one can say what she will feel, a recent survey of nurses caring for dying patients rated this a peaceful and good way to die.

Terri is *not* conscious, although she appears to be.

I'm not saying Terri's husband is right or that her family is wrong. But this isn't a movie of the week. People with this kind of brain damage don't wake up and recover (and Terri isn't truly awake, although she appears to be). Specifically, a patient is not diagnosed as PVT if they are conscious or capable of becoming conscious. And there are a number of tests that can determine consciousness, including EEG's and tests for response to pain, etc., that are very accurate.

The doctor that was interviewed in this article says that the biggest lesson for all of us in this and other cases like Karen Quinlan's is for each of us is to make sure our loved ones know our wishes.

Edited by Rhea, 23 October 2003 - 01:04 PM.

The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH



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