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Partial Birth Abortions...

Abortion Partial birth abortions

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#1 Bad Wolf

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Posted 21 October 2003 - 07:35 PM

I'm watching the news right now and they've described the procedure as one where the fetus is partially delivered and then its skull punctured (usually after the first trimester).

I'm APALLED.

And I'm pro choice.

There is a proposed bill that the Senate has passed banning this procedure with no exceptions.

You know, if they'd put in an exception for when the mother's life in in danger, I'd probably vote for it.

The procedure is just...

It makes me want to weep.

:cry:  :cry:

Edited by Una Salus Lillius, 21 October 2003 - 07:36 PM.

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#2 Rov Judicata

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Posted 21 October 2003 - 07:44 PM

http://www.nrlc.org/...ba/diagram.html

Warning: Contains diagrams.

Here's an ACLU page, which decries the ban but provides no details about how the procedure itself is done:

http://www.aclu.org/...?ID=14161&c=148

Agreed that it needs a "Health of the mother" disclaimer.

While I always have trouble with abortion, I do support this bill. And, of course, this will no doubt end up in the Supreme Court before long.
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#3 G1223

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Posted 21 October 2003 - 07:46 PM

Yes as it is it's a bad idea. Like you I am pro choice.I also know that politics will add in the clause "where the life of the mother is at risk".
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#4 Bad Wolf

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Posted 21 October 2003 - 07:50 PM

As written it's illustrative of how the Conservatives shoot themselves in the foot by being "too" Conservative.  If they'd taken a more moderate approach in the first place like adding an exception for when the mother is at risk, or rape, then I think opponents would have less of a leg to stand on.

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#5 bandit

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Posted 21 October 2003 - 07:52 PM

... And then it will become "or when it is more convinient for the mother" much like it did with regular abortions  :grr:  :barf:



Edited to fix a typo

Edited by bandit, 21 October 2003 - 07:52 PM.


#6 Uncle Sid

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Posted 21 October 2003 - 08:37 PM

Quote

As written it's illustrative of how the Conservatives shoot themselves in the foot by being "too" Conservative. If they'd taken a more moderate approach in the first place like adding an exception for when the mother is at risk, or rape, then I think opponents would have less of a leg to stand on.

Lil, I understand your point, but many, if not most pro-life advocates adhere to the philosophy that the best and likely only common reference point that exists to safely judge if life exists is when the child in question begins as an individual entity, whether it looks human or not at the time.  

Obviously, I will decry a partial birth abortion as much as you do, and want it banned, but if one of these people were to give up on trying to support earlier term childrens' right to live, then their consistent reasoning for saving a third trimester baby would evaporate as well.  After all, a third trimester baby is just as dependent on a mother's care as one in an earlier stage of development.  I just don't see where the "right to privacy" is overridden by this situation any more than it would be by any other abortion.  As far as I can tell, the only difference is that it's simply easier to detach ourselves emotionally from a child in an earlier stage of development.  

If I see someone who is going to get killed just for inconviencing the person who was responsible for their existence in the first place, I just don't see how you moderate that.  They're all still dead for the same reason.
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#7 Bad Wolf

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Posted 21 October 2003 - 08:45 PM

Okay well here's how I see it.  This will probably shock a lot of people who think I'm super liberal (which I'm not).

The way I see it is that trying to argue the issue from the pov of whether a fetus is "alive" is really missing the point.  In my view it's alive from the moment of conception.  So to me that's not an issue.

The question is that at what point is a woman's right to choose going to be given precedence over the rights of  a baby to be born.

And I'm comfortable with the idea of the right to choose to win earlier in the pregnancy than later.  Trimesters may be arbitrary lines or they may have medically sound backing (I'm not an expert so I don't know) but I'm actually not opposed to banning abortion in most cases (i.e., cases not involving rape or physical danger to the mother's life) following the first trimester.

For one thing, I think three months is plenty long enough for a woman to make that choice if she feels she needs to.  Second of all it seems to me that if you have to partially deliver a baby in order to kill it then there's just something very very wrong.

I think the choice to have an abortion is a horrible one and should never be made lightly.  But I do think that at that early stage of the pregnancy it is still a choice that has to be allowed.

That's where I stand.

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#8 Rhys

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Posted 21 October 2003 - 09:06 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Oct 21 2003, 08:50 PM, said:

As written it's illustrative of how the Conservatives shoot themselves in the foot by being "too" Conservative.  If they'd taken a more moderate approach in the first place like adding an exception for when the mother is at risk, or rape, then I think opponents would have less of a leg to stand on.
A very large number of them do.

However, it's easier to mount opposition to an extreme.  (And that goes for not only both sides of this issue, but many other issues as well.)

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#9 GiGi

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Posted 21 October 2003 - 09:49 PM

I agree with Lil.

How I feel is that birth control is the best option.

If that doesn't work for whatever reason, then a choice should be made immediately.  I have held the hand of a friend who got a procedure done when it was a mass of cells.  It isn't easy (emotionally), but at that stage it is very likely a woman could miscarry (as I did).  Sometimes nature does it on her own, sometimes she gets help, but it is something that does happen enough, naturally.

I am certainly against partial birth abortions unless the mother could die, and even then it is a tough call, it is essentially trading one life for another and only the people involved can make that choice.  I know a man whose wife (girlfriend?) died in childbirth and he does not want the child, it is brutal, but that does happen so maybe if a choice has to be made it is better to save the mother, I don't know.

I feel in cases of rape, again the choice should be made quickly, not waiting until there is a child that has formed and is on it's way to being a human being.

If someone waits until after the first trimester then they should carry it to term.  If they can't care for it they can let someone adopt the child.  In the best of all worlds it would be nice if the natural mother could see her child even if she is unable to care for it.

I used to be even more pro-choice until I saw young women (girls) proudly using abortion as a form of birth control.  What they needed was a swift kick in the ass and diaper duty until the cows come home!!!!!
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#10 Bad Wolf

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Posted 21 October 2003 - 10:26 PM

GiGi, on Oct 21 2003, 07:49 PM, said:

I used to be even more pro-choice until I saw young women (girls) proudly using abortion as a form of birth control.  What they needed was a swift kick in the ass and diaper duty until the cows come home!!!!!
What those women need is to be sterilized.

That's appalling.

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#11 GiGi

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Posted 21 October 2003 - 10:46 PM

Yep, Lil, it was then that I understood some of the pro-life issues!
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#12 MuseZack

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Posted 21 October 2003 - 10:58 PM

Dilation-extraction abortion (the term "partial-birth abortion" is a bulls*** invented phrase with no medical meaning) is a deeply troubling procedure.  But it's not like this was being frequently done when mothers decided they just didn't feel like carrying a fetus to term.  In nearly every case I've ever heard of, it was done when the fetus was discovered to have catastrophic medical conditions that would doom it to a very early death.  A very close friend of mine just went through this horror when he and his wife had a baby born with the genetic condition known as Trisomy 13.  Their baby spent her one week of life in agonizing pain hooked up to every known piece of medical equipment known to man before dying.  It was absolutely a devastating experience for everyone involved.  Now, my friend and his wife didn't know about the condition until the baby was born, and because of their shared Catholic faith probably would have opted to carry the pregnancy to term even if they had known.  But I'm not willing to deny a parent in a similar position the option to terminate the pregnancy, even by such a gruesome procedure.   And it troubles me that these peoples' choices are being legislated away.
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#13 Bad Wolf

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Posted 21 October 2003 - 11:03 PM

Hmmmmmmmmm.  Definitely food for thought Zack.

Well but Zack isn't this kind of like the case in Florida with the woman who is brain damaged?

Isn't she entitled to a shot at living rather than having the tube taken out?

I'm not saying this is an easy issue but shouldn't the child be given a chance?

Also I'm curious if you can give me a source for the numbers you're citing?
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#14 Norville

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Posted 21 October 2003 - 11:06 PM

Quote

I'm APALLED.

And I'm pro choice.

I'm not pro-choice because I love abortion. I'm pro-choice because I know there are times when a pregnancy is not going to work out, and I simply don't like the "need" of some people to tell others what to do with their bodies. (I confess my appreciation for a slogan I've seen, "Keep your rosaries off my ovaries!")

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For one thing, I think three months is plenty long enough for a woman to make that choice if she feels she needs to.

It should be, but there are apparently a lot of women who stall and stall and stall, out of fear or confusion or whatever their problem is.

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Second of all it seems to me that if you have to partially deliver a baby in order to kill it then there's just something very very wrong.

Darn right...

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I think the choice to have an abortion is a horrible one and should never be made lightly. But I do think that at that early stage of the pregnancy it is still a choice that has to be allowed.

Abortion is hardly a good decision to have to make. But sometimes it does have to be made. If so, then get it done *early*, yes.

Quote

How I feel is that birth control is the best option.

Yes, except that there are still people who find it "against their religion" or can't operate it right...

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I used to be even more pro-choice until I saw young women (girls) proudly using abortion as a form of birth control. What they needed was a swift kick in the ass and diaper duty until the cows come home!!!!!

Moronic cows who do that should definitely be sterilized; I'm with Lil on that. Just because someone's female does not automatically give her the potential to be a wonderful mother. :sarcasm:
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#15 GiGi

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Posted 22 October 2003 - 12:05 AM

Zack, that is a good point.  And if we did indeed let nature take it's course babies like that would die quickly if not on machines.

Actually "dumb" animals will kill a malformed offspring because there is no way it would be able to live on its own.

Difficult choice all of this, really it is.  A case where technology has make things easier and harder at the same time.
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#16 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 22 October 2003 - 12:47 AM

This is a touchy subject with me. Me, personally, I'm pro-life. But, if I had to vote on it, I'd vote pro-choice. Just because I'm pro-life doesn't give me the right to tell a woman what to do with her body.

That being said, as far as partial abortions...I'd have to say only in exceptional situations...like the live of the mother being at risk, ect. Zack brought up an excellent point about abnormal medical conditions existing in the fetus.

Quote

Well but Zack isn't this kind of like the case in Florida with the woman who is brain damaged?

Isn't she entitled to a shot at living rather than having the tube taken out?

Going with your example, Lil. When our pets are suffering, we take them to the vet to be put to sleep. It ends their suffering and is more humane.

My question is this: Why don't we do the same for our fellow man, or woman? If they are suffering...why not end it with mercy? Rather then allow them to continue suffering? The woman in Florida is Brain dead, from what I understand. Her husband has already said that she wouldn't choose to be kept alive like this...Why not end her suffering?
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#17 Bad Wolf

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Posted 22 October 2003 - 01:01 AM

I was chatting with Rov about this earlier and the pet issue came up (I brought it up).

Quote

Going with your example, Lil. When our pets are suffering, we take them to the vet to be put to sleep. It ends their suffering and is more humane.

The first thing is that puncturing my pet's skull would NEVER be an option.  Period.  Part of my objection to this form of abortion is to the form of the abortion.

The second thing is that, as much as I adore my cat, my cat is not a human being.

I know it's not an easy issue.  

I guess I'd also like more information about the precision of prebirth diagnoses of catostrophic conditions and defects and such.
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#18 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 22 October 2003 - 01:08 AM

^

My bad. What I meant when I referred to the animals was the woman in Florida. But you do a have a point. When we bring our pets to the vet to be put down, it's done humanely...with a shot. With the woman in Florida, I believe the same should be done in that case. Simply allowing her to starve to death is cruel...That would never happen to a pet of mine.

Edited to add: Sorry. Didn't mean to take the thread off topic.

Edited by LORD of the SWORD, 22 October 2003 - 01:11 AM.

"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

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Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

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#19 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 22 October 2003 - 01:13 AM

I do have one question though. I'm not an expert, and have absolutely no idea of how an abortion is carried out. Aside from the graphic link posted here. Wouldn't they be able to give the mother a drug that would kill the fetus? As opposed to performing this procedure?
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Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#20 sierraleone

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Posted 22 October 2003 - 01:33 AM

LORD of the SWORD, on Oct 21 2003, 10:13 PM, said:

I do have one question though. I'm not an expert, and have absolutely no idea of how an abortion is carried out. Aside from the graphic link posted here. Wouldn't they be able to give the mother a drug that would kill the fetus? As opposed to performing this procedure?
I'm no expert, but the only "drug" I can think of, for abortion, is the morning after pill  :Oo: And its *way* too late for that when it gets to the point they are considering this kind of abortion ;) :D All the kinds of abortion I know of aren't any kind of pill, probably because a pill that would kill a fetus/embryo would most likely harm the mother as well  :suspect: All the methods of abortion I know of, also never sounded very humane to me .... Any drug to "humanely" kill a fetus I suspect would have to be injected directly into the fetus somehow. But I'm just guessing  :upside:
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