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And the highest goal of education is...

Education Tolerance Discussion

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#1 Rov Judicata

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Posted 27 October 2003 - 11:05 AM

Posting first, then commentary.

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St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

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#2 Jid

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Posted 27 October 2003 - 11:09 AM

Erm..... that's all?   :suspect:

;)
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#3 Rov Judicata

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Posted 27 October 2003 - 11:13 AM

That 'Tolerance' of anything non-western traditional has become the number one priority in education has been obvious to me for a while.

But... isn't that amazing?

The highest result of education isn't knowledge, or the ability to think for yourself, or the ability to finely hone your BS detector, or honour, or moral clarity, or anything else.

It's the wishy-washy indefinite concept called "tolerance"; any student who fails in acquiring this singular trait has obviously failed.

Setting aside the fact that tolerance isn't a good absolute principle (in my own education, I've been told that the way America treats women is no better than those that throw women on their husbands funeral pyres),  WHY is it the highest result? Making judgments is an essential part of functioning anywhere, and the way our education system portrays tolerance runs counter to that important concept.

Indeed, I see this as little different than "The highest result of education is patriotism" or the like; it takes a good concept and elevates it to the level of indoctrination.

WHY? Isn't it far more important that people make logical conclusions based on their own experiences than be spoonfed? And what kind of job can you go to and have this conversation:

Interviewer: What's the most important thing you got out of your education?
You: Tolerance!
Interviewer: You're hired!

It scares me where the priorities are these days. It's time for a little less political correctness, and a lot more critical thinking.

Yeesh.
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#4 Norville

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Posted 27 October 2003 - 11:31 AM

Quote

That 'Tolerance' of anything non-western traditional has become the number one priority in education has been obvious to me for a while.

Yes... and tolerance is a fine thing, but please... As I've said before, I studied anthropology and developed great fascination for other cultures, but that doesn't mean I want to live in them or have my culture turned into theirs. Does this not make any sense?

Quote

But... isn't that amazing?

The highest result of education isn't knowledge, or the ability to think for yourself, or the ability to finely hone your BS detector, or honour, or moral clarity, or anything else.

It's the wishy-washy indefinite concept called "tolerance"; any student who fails in acquiring this singular trait has obviously failed.

Yeah, knowledge, integrity, thinking for oneself... none of that matters as long as you're "PC".

Quote

I see this as little different than "The highest result of education is patriotism" or the like; it takes a good concept and elevates it to the level of indoctrination.

Ah, indoctrination. I love my country and want to save it against all those who intend to run it into the ground, including by bad leadership. But because I may not like who's President, that makes me disloyal, unpatriotic, unAmerican... where's the tolerance there? ;) Questioning authority is indoctrinated in many to be *wrong*. Sorry, I always question authority...

Quote

WHY? Isn't it far more important that people make logical conclusions based on their own experiences than be spoonfed?

Not in these times, didn't you know that? It's not "cool" to think or speak as if educated. We all need to sit like sheep in front of the TV and lose our ability to reason for ourselves.

Quote

It scares me where the priorities are these days. It's time for a little less political correctness, and a lot more critical thinking.

Yeesh.

I love this post. Thanks. ;)
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Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
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#5 Kimmer

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Posted 27 October 2003 - 11:43 AM

Javert Rovinski, on Oct 27 2003, 08:13 AM, said:

The highest result of education isn't knowledge, or the ability to think for yourself, or the ability to finely hone your BS detector, or honour, or moral clarity, or anything else.

It's the wishy-washy indefinite concept called "tolerance"; any student who fails in acquiring this singular trait has obviously failed.
This ranks right up there with the "feel-good" philosophy that is prevalent in many CA schools.

Teach: Johnny, how much is 2 + 2?

Johnny: 7!

Teach: How do you feel about yourself right now, Johnny?

Johnny: Great!

Teach: Terrific! I've accomplished my goal and you get to move on to the next grade level.

---
Okay, perhaps that is a bit simplified, but it is accurate. Our friend went round and round with his son's math teacher over this stuff. She insisted that the children have to "feel good about themselves" or their education is wasted. :eek:  There is no "right or wrong" answers in many school districts.

Brian wound up teaching his two kids at home every night, in addition to what they got in school each day. Worse, his son was downgraded for turning in a math paper with all the correct answers because the stress of doing that would hurt his psyche!

So let's learn to show some tolerance folks, and we'll all be declared A+ students.  :angry:

#6 Drew

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Posted 27 October 2003 - 11:57 AM

The ironic thing is that public schools are one of those places where you find the least amount of tolerance for anything outside of what they feel is "normal."  :cool:

Kimmer, it sounds like intelligence isn't even tolerated!  :eek2:
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#7 sierraleone

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Posted 27 October 2003 - 12:04 PM

Thats scary Kimmer! Downgraded for an A+ paper because of what stress it might have caused???? :eek2:
Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#8 G1223

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Posted 27 October 2003 - 12:06 PM

Man what a mess. I guess when the school fails it's state's placement tests the sign will then say "The highest goal is to get an education and for our school to get actual funding."
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#9 Rhys

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Posted 27 October 2003 - 12:11 PM

Tolerance is a great standard to aim for - if it comes in the right place in the sequence: understand it, evaluate it, make your own decision, determine the consequences of a differing opinion, then, if appropriate, tolerate the differing opinion.

Unfortunately, it seems a lot of people are taking a shortcut and jumping right to "tolerate it", which is not good - some things should not be tolerated.  I'm sure I don't have to start a list.

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#10 Rov Judicata

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Posted 27 October 2003 - 12:12 PM

Quote

Yes... and tolerance is a fine thing, but please... As I've said before, I studied anthropology and developed great fascination for other cultures, but that doesn't mean I want to live in them or have my culture turned into theirs. Does this not make any sense?

True story, when I was in about ninth grade (I'm paraphrasing the specifics, as it's been years, but you get the idea):

Teacher, after discussing the practice of throwing wives on their husbands funeral pyres: So, you see, we can't judge others actions based on our own values.
Rov: So... if somebody is killed because they're gay, we can't say it's wrong?
Teacher: That's different, because it's our own culture
Rov: Oh... so if it happened in Canada, we couldn't say it was wrong?
Teacher: Well, that's a western culture.
Rov: Ah. So, if it happened in Iran, then it would be fine?
Teacher: Well, no... it's not attached to a tradition.
Rov: But if a culture had a tradition of killing gays, it would be okay?
Teacher: See me after class.

I'll spare you the conversation that happened after the bell; suffice it to say that this is the worst teacher I've ever had, and individual thought wasn't a plus.

Quote

Yeah, knowledge, integrity, thinking for oneself... none of that matters as long as you're "PC".

You CAN'T have knowledge, integrity, or think for yourself unless you are PC. Duh.

Quote

Ah, indoctrination. I love my country and want to save it against all those who intend to run it into the ground, including by bad leadership. But because I may not like who's President, that makes me disloyal, unpatriotic, unAmerican... where's the tolerance there?

Traitor! Be careful, I have Ashcroft on my speed dial... :evil:

Quote

Questioning authority is indoctrinated in many to be *wrong*. Sorry, I always question authority...

As noted above, me too. It's fun, but can cause problems....

Quote

Not in these times, didn't you know that? It's not "cool" to think or speak as if educated. We all need to sit like sheep in front of the TV and lose our ability to reason for ourselves.

S'up, dog?

Quote

I love this post. Thanks

No, thank you. And APOTS. ;).

Kimmer-- I'm in an educational psychology class right now. Last week, we learned that grades are only good for 'positive reinforcement' never as 'punishment'.

<Another side story:  A fellow student frustratingly asked "Well, what DO we give students who do poorly?" My response-- "A job application from McDonald's!"-- may have been incorrect.>

Drew:

Quote

The ironic thing is that public schools are one of those places where you find the least amount of tolerance for anything outside of what they feel is "normal."

That's true. Public schools are some of the least tolerant places I've ever been to.

Rhys-- Agreed.

Edited by Javert Rovinski, 27 October 2003 - 12:17 PM.

St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.

#11 Drew

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Posted 27 October 2003 - 12:18 PM

Rhys, on Oct 27 2003, 11:11 AM, said:

Tolerance is a great standard to aim for - if it comes in the right place in the sequence: understand it, evaluate it, make your own decision, determine the consequences of a differing opinion, then, if appropriate, tolerate the differing opinion.
The only problem is that there isn't really a standard for tolerance. It's a subjective concept, dependent on who's wielding the word "tolerance" like a cudgel in a given situation.
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#12 sierraleone

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Posted 27 October 2003 - 12:39 PM

Javert Rovinski, on Oct 27 2003, 09:12 AM, said:

Quote

Yes... and tolerance is a fine thing, but please... As I've said before, I studied anthropology and developed great fascination for other cultures, but that doesn't mean I want to live in them or have my culture turned into theirs. Does this not make any sense?

True story, when I was in about ninth grade (I'm paraphrasing the specifics, as it's been years, but you get the idea):

Teacher, after discussing the practice of throwing wives on their husbands funeral pyres: So, you see, we can't judge others actions based on our own values.
Rov: So... if somebody is killed because they're gay, we can't say it's wrong?
Teacher: That's different, because it's our own culture
Rov: Oh... so if it happened in Canada, we couldn't say it was wrong?
Teacher: Well, that's a western culture.
Rov: Ah. So, if it happened in Iran, then it would be fine?
Teacher: Well, no... it's not attached to a tradition.
Rov: But if a culture had a tradition of killing gays, it would be okay?
Teacher: See me after class.

I'll spare you the conversation that happened after the bell; suffice it to say that this is the worst teacher I've ever had, and individual thought wasn't a plus.
Thats a horrifyingly scary story, but I think its almost par for the course in school, they do not want individual thoughts and critical thinking, they just want them to swallow what they are fed  :wacko:

Edited by sierraleone, 27 October 2003 - 12:39 PM.

Rules for surviving an Autocracy:

Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
Source: http://www2.nybooks....r-survival.html

#13 Appreciate

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Posted 27 October 2003 - 12:45 PM

*completely ignores the serious point of this entire thread to relish the thought of Rov getting in trouble after class....*   :devil:

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To the point where I don't know if I'll upset the status quo
If I throw poison in the water main..."
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#14 usmarox

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Posted 27 October 2003 - 01:01 PM

Well, it strikes me as just being wrong.

Why?  Because tolerance is something that follows naturally from being well-educated.  An appreciation of art, history, science - with a knowledge of those, and the people responsible for them, tolerance isn't a big leap.

Of course, that leads inevitably to the question of how far tolerance goes, but that's a story for another day.
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#15 silverwind

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Posted 27 October 2003 - 01:16 PM

Well said, Rhys :)

And...well...Something one has to understand about Wichita--Because of the Boeing manufacturing plant there, you have a pretty high diversity level.  With people from many cultures and ethnic groups living in one city, (and in a state that has a less-than spiffy record with tolerance), promotion of tolerance is going to be a bit over-done.

Or something like that.  Somewhere during the 15 minutes I tried to write this, my brain kinda got distracted :p
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#16 Jid

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Posted 27 October 2003 - 02:05 PM

I find myself in agreement with Usmarox here.

To elaborate on my somewhat tongue in cheek comment before - tolerance *should* be a byproduct of education, not a goal.  Not a goal, and most certainly not the highest goal.  (I mean, it's not like you can get a university degree in tolerance.  I hope.  Please God, no.)

I think a lot of what I've read here goes back to the famous statement that some would argue lies at the root of education problems in general:  The biggest flaw often found in the education system is the notion that the lessons every person should have to learn can necessarily be taught.

The goal of the education system is to provide *gasp* an education, rewarding/penalizing students through an alphabetic or numeric grade, which states their performance.

The notion that tolerance is something to be taught is essentially, in my opinion, ludicrous.  The notion that having students interacting with students from a variety of backgrounds and environment of respect is encouraged (and enforced)  well.....   isn't that what my teachers were always doing during recess?  :Oo:  ;)
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#17 Rhea

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Posted 27 October 2003 - 02:23 PM

LOL! I'd say the highest result of education is.um..let me think..yeah! education! :p :p

If they had said "One of the..." I would have been right there with 'em. ;)
The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
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When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


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#18 Josh

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Posted 27 October 2003 - 02:24 PM

I find most of this thread offensive...

HOWEVER, "tolerance" is already a buzzword. I mean, think about it. Should we strive for TOLERATING people or for accepting them?

As for the school thing, I agree with Jid.
"THE UNICORNS ARE NOT TO BE TRIFLED WITH!" - John Burke.

#19 Bad Wolf

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Posted 27 October 2003 - 02:30 PM

I too find most of this thread offensive.

And I agree with what Rhys said.
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#20 Rhea

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Posted 27 October 2003 - 02:33 PM

Jid, on Oct 27 2003, 12:05 PM, said:

IThe notion that tolerance is something to be taught is essentially, in my opinion, ludicrous.  The notion that having students interacting with students from a variety of backgrounds and environment of respect is encouraged (and enforced)  well.....   isn't that what my teachers were always doing during recess?  :Oo:  ;)
Jid, tolerance *is* something that has to be taught. The old Rogers and Hammerstein song said:

Quote

You've got to be taught to hate and fear
You've got to be taught from year to year
It's got to be drummed in your dear little ear
You've got to be carefully taught

You've got to be taught to be afraid
Of people whose eyes are oddly made
And people whose skin is a different shade
You've got to be carefully taught

You've got to be taught before it's too late
Before you are six or seven or eight
To hate all the people your relatives hate
You've got to be carefully taught
You've got to be carefully taught

And they were too right. If everyone were tolerant of differences we wouldn't need to teach our children tolerance in order to counteract the crap they learn at home. Unfortunately, it's not an ideal world and tolerance *does* need to be taught.   :pout:

Edited by Rhea, 27 October 2003 - 02:33 PM.

The future is better than the past. Despite the crepehangers, romanticists, and anti-intellectuals, the world steadily grows better because the human mind, applying itself to environment, makes it better. With hands...with tools...with horse sense and science and engineering.
- Robert A. Heinlein

When I don’t understand, I have an unbearable itch to know why. - RAH


Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. One could write a history of science in reverse by assembling the solemn pronouncements of highest authority about what could not be done and could never happen.  - RAH



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