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Minster wants to place monument in park

Fred Phelps Westboro Baptist Church

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#41 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 30 October 2003 - 08:08 AM

Nick, on Oct 30 2003, 12:24 AM, said:

(BTW--This has got to be one of the first threads I've ever seen on ex-isle where all the outspoken liberals, conservatives, moderates and I-refuse-to-be-classified-by-any-of-those-labels-thank-you-very-much-ies are in such firm agreement)

It's cool, but a little bit scary. ;)

:ninja:

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I was wondering if anyone would pick up on that.

How would Delenn from B5 put it? "We're a board gone mad."  ;)
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Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

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#42 Drew

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Posted 30 October 2003 - 09:23 AM

Nick, on Oct 29 2003, 10:24 PM, said:

(BTW--This has got to be one of the first threads I've ever seen on ex-isle where all the outspoken liberals, conservatives, moderates and I-refuse-to-be-classified-by-any-of-those-labels-thank-you-very-much-ies are in such firm agreement)

It's cool, but a little bit scary. ;)
That's because no normal, sane person could possibly believe what Phelps believes. I spent a large part of yesterday afternoon reading that extremely long article about Phelps and his twisted life. It disturbed me at the cellular level. I found myself wanting to pay him a visit and show him the error of his ways . . . with a very large, blunt object.

That said, prepare for some dissent.

Anyone who thinks that Phelps is representative of Baptists is fatally ignorant. (Furthermore, Phelps was unofficially "ordained" at 17. His "church" is essentially his extended family and a few hangers-on. It is not recognized by any Baptist denomination.) Some of the things said about Baptists in this thread only spread more hate (and ignorance), and I'm very disappointed to see it posted here. But I'm not surprised.

Edited by Drew, 30 October 2003 - 09:26 AM.

"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#43 Rhys

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Posted 30 October 2003 - 09:57 AM

I just noticed the typo in this thread's title.

It appears to be a combination of "minister" and "monster".

Hmm... maybe it's not a typo after all...


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#44 G1223

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Posted 30 October 2003 - 10:03 AM

Drew I have seen some "baptist" who were as intolerant as some of those who slam them in public. So those attacked feel the only way to express themselves is to attack.

I do feel it would be sad if the commandments mounment had to be removed to keep Phelps out but yeah if it's the only way then it needs done.
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#45 Drew

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Posted 30 October 2003 - 10:13 AM

G1223, on Oct 30 2003, 09:03 AM, said:

Drew I have seen some "baptist" who were as intolerant as some of those who slam them in public. So those attacked feel the only way to express themselves is to attack.
Doesn't mean I have to sit here and pretend it's a fine way to express oneself. If you answer hatred with hatred, and ignorance with ignorance, you are becoming the very thing you fight against.
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#46 Kevin Street

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Posted 30 October 2003 - 12:25 PM

It's true that Phelps is no Baptist. He seems to hate his former church at least as much as he hates homosexuals.

#47 Lover of Purple

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Posted 30 October 2003 - 12:33 PM

Drew, on Oct 30 2003, 08:13 AM, said:

G1223, on Oct 30 2003, 09:03 AM, said:

Drew I have seen some "baptist" who were as intolerant as some of those who slam them in public. So those attacked feel the only way to express themselves is to attack.
Doesn't mean I have to sit here and pretend it's a fine way to express oneself. If you answer hatred with hatred, and ignorance with ignorance, you are becoming the very thing you fight against.
Exactly Drew.I do see some placing ALL Baptist into the same class as Phelps.

Listen carefully.... I AM a Baptist and am nowhere near what Phelps is. No one in my church is even remotely like him. So, please let's not call him a Baptist and then hate all of us.

Thanks much.

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#48 Lover of Purple

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Posted 30 October 2003 - 12:33 PM

Kevin Street, on Oct 30 2003, 10:25 AM, said:

It's true that Phelps is no Baptist. He seems to hate his former church at least as much as he hates homosexuals.
Thank you Kevin!!!!!!!!!!


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#49 LaughingVulcan

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Posted 30 October 2003 - 12:46 PM

Well, isn't that what's happening here?  References to visiting the monument with sledgehammers if it's erected (not that I wouldn't cry tears about it being knocked down....)  But it's combatting hate with destruction.  A similar thought,  I hope that IF it were put up (God forbid....) that the Sheperd family could sue for every last cent the minister's got - bet he doesn't have malpractice insurance, either.

It sickens me that the line from Melissa Etheridge's Scarecrow ("Where do these monsters lie?  ... They're preaching in our churches, and eating at our tables.") is true even in part.

Maybe a non-destructive strategy would be to erect a slightly larger monument to the pervasiveness of hatred.  Or how the "minister" was condemned to hell on the date the statue went up.
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#50 Lover of Purple

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Posted 30 October 2003 - 01:00 PM

I agree LV. The answer isn't more violence. The man likes the court system so well, they family should use it against him if he succeeds. To go and destroy it would only strenghten his position, I'm afraid.

#51 Nick

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Posted 30 October 2003 - 02:06 PM

Gotta disagree here--I believe there can be constructive destruction.  Heck, look at the Berlin wall.  I see nothing wrong with the throngs of people who cheerfully bashed sections of the wall to bits amidst great celebration . . . or the blowing up of statues of Sadam and his old regime . . .

These are symbols of hate, oppression, and are viewed as blights by a vast majority of people.  If someone builds a monument in anger, I see no evil in tearing it down with glee.

Especially if, as I stated above, so many diverse people with diverse beleifs can walk together hand-in-hand and happily destroy this symbol of hate.

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#52 Lover of Purple

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Posted 30 October 2003 - 02:28 PM

True Nick, but we aren't talking about tearing down somethingthat has been more/or less authorized to tear down. If the monument is put up and it is decided that it must be taken down, then tear away. :)

#53 QueenTiye

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Posted 30 October 2003 - 02:42 PM

I really like the idea of constructively building around the monument of hate with all sorts of things that use it to prove how idiotic it is...

Like - how about some artists who come and construct stuff that says - "Isn't it amazing how enduring hate can be, unless replaced with love?"

How about some ivy planted near it to overgrow it? :)

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#54 QueenTiye

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Posted 30 October 2003 - 02:43 PM

Oh!  How about a bird feeder - to attract birds who will ... um... repaint the monument???   :angel:

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#55 G1223

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Posted 30 October 2003 - 03:15 PM

Look I knoqw that going there and taking such a course of action will require paying a fine or doing a bit of time. I can accept it and as to the civil suit I will fight the bigot and hope to win.

Yes it is distructive but sometimes a line must drawn and someone must step up.
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#56 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 30 October 2003 - 04:10 PM

Lover of Purple, on Oct 30 2003, 03:28 PM, said:

True Nick, but we aren't talking about tearing down somethingthat has been more/or less authorized to tear down. If the monument is put up and it is decided that it must be taken down, then tear away. :)
Decided by whom?

If you're referring to the Courts, then forget it. They are so Politically Correct it's not even funny.

If, however, you're talking about the majority of the Townsfolk, then by all means...bash away.

If, for example, 90% of the townspeople are offended by this hate symbol and want it removed, then they should take steps to do it. All of them using 20lb sledges should do it very nicely. There is no reason that just because this Bigot and maybe 10% of the people want it, that the other 90% should have to live with it.

The percent numbers are just out of my head, a guess.
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

The Left is inclusive, and tolerant, unless you happen to think and believe different than they do~ Lord of the Sword

Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.” ~Thomas Jefferson

#57 Lover of Purple

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Posted 30 October 2003 - 04:31 PM

I agree with you LoS on the courts being very PC. I think your idea of the town deciding is great.

#58 Kevin Street

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Posted 30 October 2003 - 04:38 PM

Time to play Devil's Advocate. :devil:

The problem with this argument is that it doesn't extend into a moral principle. What if, after they smash the monument, 90% of the townsfolk become offended by something else - like my house. Does that give them the right to smash it too?

Phelps is an ass, no question, and he's really giving the people of Rupert, Idaho a headache with his moronic play for attention. But imo, they should deal with this in a legal way.

BTW, here's a more recent article on the situation:

Kansas minister wants to erect anti-gay monument in Idaho

#59 TechHarper

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Posted 30 October 2003 - 09:41 PM

Lord of the Sword, I have a couple of questions for you if you don't mind.  First off, in your last post you advocate a rule by force kind of thinking in which the majority would decide what actions the minority/individual may take.  Do you therefore believe that individuals should have no rights unless the majority says it's ok?  What you're effectively advocating there is the idea that the Constitution should be done away with (remember, it protects ALL people, regardless of whether you like or agree with them), to be replaced with brute force.  Have I misunderstood you? :blink:

Also, assuming that isn't what you're advocating (which I sincerely hope it's not), why should the religious views of one group be allowed to be displayed on public property, but not the religious/moral views of another group?  For example, I most certainly don't agree with this bigot's bulls***, but, not being a Jew/Christian, I don't agree with some of the things on the ten commandments either.  From your perspective, should I destroy the ten commandments monument because I disagree with parts of it, or should I leave it alone and allow people to express their opinions regardless of how I might feel about them?


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#60 Uncle Sid

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Posted 30 October 2003 - 10:24 PM

^
Note that I fully agree with the sentiment about the possibility of a "Tyranny of the Majority" existing in a democracy.  Being in the majority doesn't make you right and shouldn't allow you to ignore or repress a minority group.

On the other hand, there is a "Tyranny of the Minority" as well.  This is where people are so sensitized to the problems of having a majority dictate a common policy that the majority doesn't just work for a reasonable consensus, but actually defers to the minority even when it would not be in their own best interests to do so.  

The fact is that if 90% of a town did not want an outsider like Phelps to come in and foist a slab unpon their town etched with hateful wording on it just for his own PR value, then it shouldn't happen.  The Constitution protects individual freedoms, but it also is very clear about the concept of majority decision-making.  If you alienate the majority too often, the government itself loses support and credibility.  No majority will long settle for a situation where they clearly percieve the government as forcing a much detested solution on them.  There is a level of clarity to this issue that you rarely get elsewhere.  This person is so clearly an extremist bigot that few to no one will argue that this sort of thing is not what they should have to look at every day.  Rev. Phelps has more than his share of opportunity to describe his viewpoints in livid detail, I simply cannot see how placing a permanent monument against the wishes of all or most of a town would represent anything more than a tyranny of an alien minority over their lives.

Edited by Uncle Sid, 30 October 2003 - 10:25 PM.

I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it. - Jack Handey



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