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Minster wants to place monument in park

Fred Phelps Westboro Baptist Church

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#61 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 30 October 2003 - 11:49 PM

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Lord of the Sword, I have a couple of questions for you if you don't mind. First off, in your last post you advocate a rule by force kind of thinking in which the majority would decide what actions the minority/individual may take. Do you therefore believe that individuals should have no rights unless the majority says it's ok? What you're effectively advocating there is the idea that the Constitution should be done away with (remember, it protects ALL people, regardless of whether you like or agree with them), to be replaced with brute force. Have I misunderstood you?

I don't mind at all.

I'm not advocating "Mob rule" no. What I'm merely saying is that if the Majority (90%) don't want something put up in their town, it shouldn't be. If one of the minority, like this Bigot, insists that the Courts allow him to place a monument that the Majority clearly doesn't want, then the Majority should remove it.

Because, otherwise we have a "Tyranny of the Minority". If the majority of the town doesn't want it, why should they have to be forced to have it? Surely you're not advocating a "Tyranny of the Minority"?

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Also, assuming that isn't what you're advocating (which I sincerely hope it's not), why should the religious views of one group be allowed to be displayed on public property, but not the religious/moral views of another group? For example, I most certainly don't agree with this bigot's bulls***, but, not being a Jew/Christian, I don't agree with some of the things on the ten commandments either. From your perspective, should I destroy the ten commandments monument because I disagree with parts of it, or should I leave it alone and allow people to express their opinions regardless of how I might feel about them?

As for other religious views being displayed...I'm all for it. I'm not a Muslim, don't believe in their views, but I'd have no problem having a Muslim monument being erected. And, here's where it gets tricky though. If it was a Muslim preacher wanting to put a statue of Allah up, and the Majority of the town didn't want it, I'd say that, in that case, the Majority was wrong. If one religious view is up, then others should be allowed as well. However, what this Bigot is trying to put up has nothing whatsoever to do with religion...it's hate and evil pure and simple.

About the only exception I can see here would be if someone wanted to erect a Satanic altar...

As for destroying the 10 commandments monument...Even if you disagree with them, they don't preach Hate and Evil. What this Bigot want to erect would be a monument to HATE...pure and simple.
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Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

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#62 Norville

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Posted 30 October 2003 - 11:57 PM

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If it was a Muslim preacher wanting to put a statue of Allah up

Which would never happen -- their concept of God is not humanized as the Christian view is. He's not supposed to look like anything, because He's everything. Many Muslims never make any human images at all, art or statues, because those would be idols. I've been surprised to see depictions of people in Iranian and Iraqi society, though, so some tradition there is deeper than the ban on graven images... curious.

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#63 Nick

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Posted 31 October 2003 - 12:00 AM

Uncle Sid, on Oct 30 2003, 10:24 PM, said:

^
Note that I fully agree with the sentiment about the possibility of a "Tyranny of the Majority" . . .

*snip*

. . . I simply cannot see how placing a permanent monument against the wishes of all or most of a town would represent anything more than a tyranny of an alien minority over their lives.
These are my sentiments exactly!

Now, regarding devils-advocate ethics . . . "what if they wanted to smash my house" . . . well . . . the two are quite dissimilar.  Houses fall under different rules . . . A) it's your home and where you keep all of your stuff so there are certain protections for that

and B) There are homeowner's societies, covenants, laws, and recourse that neighbors can take because let's say you painted your house in neon green polka-dots, put carpeting over your lawn, and planted monolithic statues of Linda Tripp everywhere . . . well . . . those would have to be removed . . . eventually . . . because it's lowering the property values of your neighbors, cheapening their neighborhood, and generally annoying a LOT of people.

No, it wouldn't be legal for them to come in and level the place, but that level of obnoxiousness can be fought, and quite successfully.

But when it's a monument of such abject hate as the one that's being proposed . . . well . . . yeah, what'll probably happen is it won't be built in the first place.  And even if it is, it'll be removed through litigation and lawmaking . . . but that's not *nearly* as fun and cathartic as the sledgehammer approach. ;)

-Nick

Edited by Nick, 31 October 2003 - 12:01 AM.


#64 TechHarper

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Posted 31 October 2003 - 04:21 AM

Thank you for clarifying your stance, LORD of the SWORD.  To be completely honest, I agree with you at a gut level.  This kind of hatred (regardless of how it's expressed) makes me feel ill.  I guess the problem I'm having, though, is that this guy found a loop-hole.  He's using a biblical passage as justification for his hate and is thus able to say that if he isn't allowed to display the monument, his religious views are being suppressed while others are being promoted by the local government.  So, I suppose the question I'm wrestling with is, where do we draw the line?  If we say hate-speech may not be promoted on public grounds, does that mean that certain passages from holy texts may not be displayed on public property even when other views are being promoted (for example, should passages from the Bible that could be used to support racism and/or slavery not be allowed because it's offensive to most people, or is it ok to put whatever you want on a monument as long as it's not a personal attack as this proposed monument would be?)?  And then, who exactly gets to decide what will and won't be considered hateful?

As you said, this gets tricky.


-TechHarper

Edited by TechHarper, 31 October 2003 - 04:38 AM.

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"A nation that limits freedom in the name of security will have neither." - Thomas Jefferson

#65 Bad Wolf

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Posted 31 October 2003 - 05:51 AM

Even IF there is an argument that there is a free speech issue here that is not the end of the issue.

Because the law is that IF the State can show that its legitimate state interests outweigh the speech in question, the State wins.

Hence my previous (and ignored ;) ) post about how the State's interest in not promoting hate crimes outweighs this assholes' "right" to spew his hate.
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#66 Taryn Wander'r

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Posted 31 October 2003 - 09:37 AM

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Maybe a non-destructive strategy would be to erect a slightly larger monument to the pervasiveness of hatred. Or how the "minister" was condemned to hell on the date the statue went up.

That sounds like a great idea! I'd pay money to see that!  :cool:

And by that, I mean donate to such a cause. If Phelps could raise enough money for his 'monument', I don't see how this idea couldn't.

And:

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From there, Fred went north to the Prairie Bible Institute near Calgary, Alberta.

Figures.  :whatsthat:

Edited by Taryn Wander'r, 31 October 2003 - 09:53 AM.


#67 Drew

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Posted 31 October 2003 - 11:54 AM

Taryn Wander'r, on Oct 31 2003, 08:37 AM, said:

Figures.  :whatsthat:
Figures what?
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#68 Kevin Street

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Posted 31 October 2003 - 12:11 PM

I think she's making a Calgary joke, but without knowing where Taryn Wander'r hails from it's hard to say.

Personally, I think Calgary is its own punchline. :devil:  :devil:  ;)  ;)  ;)

Edited by Kevin Street, 31 October 2003 - 12:14 PM.


#69 Peridot

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Posted 31 October 2003 - 11:32 PM

G1223, on Oct 29 2003, 02:27 PM, said:

Rhea as A Baptist  I cannot understand how a man...Being like this gets to be the head of his church. It's like what others around here have said we do not know that man and he sure as hell does not represent our God.
Well said.  I'm from another denomination, but from what I know of Phelps' actions, this individual has violated precept after precept of Christian behavior.

And I think those of us who are Christians need to do again and again what we have done on this thread---to speak up and disavow any connection with this individual and his viewpoints, with what charity we can muster.

Peridot nearly bankrupts her charity reserves, trying not to say what she thinks of Phelps and those similar to him..... :crazy:

Tell you what.....I'm not real good with a sledgehammer....but if you all bring the hammers, I'll bring the broom and dustpan..... :angel:

Peridot

#70 G1223

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Posted 01 November 2003 - 12:05 AM

Peridot I do not think it is healthy to keep such feelings in.  Phelps is something I would love to hear about having a painful slow death (Note I refuse to give him human status)I would like to hear he has to go to jail for a criminal act or is infected with AIDS. But Do I want myself or someone else to bring this upon him? No. I just want him gone.

But if the God that Banished Caine, Squashed Samson,and leveled Soddam wants something to come out of retirment to punish Phelps is my Canidate.
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#71 Peridot

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Posted 01 November 2003 - 12:58 AM

G1223, on Nov 1 2003, 05:05 AM, said:

Peridot I do not think it is healthy to keep such feelings in. 
*Sigh*.....You may be right. But individuals like this evoke such a strong negative response in me that I have trouble figuring out how to express it in a Christian manner.

It's not just that this---this--this---Phelps individual has wronged gay people in general, and a tragically bereaved family in particular.

I believe he has also done wrong to Christ. :(  :(  :(

Peridot

#72 G1223

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Posted 01 November 2003 - 01:11 AM

Peridot showing compassion to one who is lost is one thing showing understanding to one who has followed a simualr path is another  and showing a willingness to to discuss matters of faith with those of other faiths is an another.

This is a Minister he knows what Christ taught and claims that he is  even when others see it as Hatred and For that a place in hell awaits him . I cannot show compassion understanding nor do I have the willingness to discuss what sort of being he is excpet to say I hope with his death his followers will blow away like chaff in the wind.
If you encounter any Trolls. You really must not forget them.
And if you want to save these shores. For Pity sake Don't Trust them.
paraphrased from H. "Breaker" Morant

TANSTAAFL
If you voted for Obama then all the mistakes he makes are your fault and I will point this out to you every time he does mess up.

When the fall is all that remains. It matters a great deal.

All hail the clich's all emcompassing shadow.

My playing well with other's skill has been vastly overrated

Member of the Order of the Knigths of the Woeful Countance.

#73 Peridot

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Posted 14 November 2003 - 02:39 PM

^  ^

Just wanted to say thanks for some good dialogue on this issue.  I see your point, I think---that there are times when we are called to be charitable, yet there may be other times when we are called to be more direct.

I'll be interested to learn how this actually turns out, with the proposed...ummm....monument.

Anyway, thanks for posting this thread.  I meant to get back here earlier, but the last couple weeks have been very full.

Peridot

Oops....left out a word....

Edited by Peridot, 14 November 2003 - 02:42 PM.




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