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Secret Spells Barbie: Possible Hot Topic

Barbie Wicca Barbie Controversy Religion

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#41 Godeskian

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Posted 04 November 2003 - 11:11 AM

Mea Culpa, i skimmed throught he thread rather than reading it thoroughly.

My bad, and no hard feelings were intended.

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#42 Drew

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Posted 04 November 2003 - 11:14 AM

EDIT: Never mind. I give up.

Edited by Drew, 04 November 2003 - 11:17 AM.

"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#43 Anakam

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Posted 04 November 2003 - 10:13 PM

Drew, on Nov 4 2003, 03:34 PM, said:

I think I've said it enough, and I'm tired of having to say it again and again. It's the pigeonholing, the generalizing, the stereotyping. It's the repeated assaults on Catholics, Baptists, Fundamentalists, . . . Christians of all stripes. People set up a straw man based on all their assumptions, and then delight in burning him down.
Um, Drew?

I think that the various Christian denominations and indeed the word "Christian" in your post there could *just* as easily be replaced with various other religions and sects.... whether Islam or Judaism or a pagan religion (with apologies for not being able to name any).

If you give up, that's (obviously) up to you.  But, to take what Uncle Sid said above one step farther with regards to the silliness--if it's a straw man and you therefore don't fit the description of the straw man, since it's usually a grouping of inaccurate generalizations and fears, *why* must you feel attacked?

I just don't get it....
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#44 QueenTiye

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Posted 04 November 2003 - 10:21 PM

Um.... I've just finished attending a funeral, and am off to another one.. so my brain is a bit addled -

anyway as many times as I've seen this post, for some reason I thought that this thread was titled "Secret Smells Barbie...."

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#45 Drew

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Posted 04 November 2003 - 11:20 PM

Anakam, on Nov 4 2003, 09:13 PM, said:

Um, Drew?

I think that the various Christian denominations and indeed the word "Christian" in your post there could *just* as easily be replaced with various other religions and sects.... whether Islam or Judaism or a pagan religion (with apologies for not being able to name any).
And wouldn't it be wrong to make crass generalizations about a group of people regardless of the identity of that group? I think you see my point quite well.

Quote

But, to take what Uncle Sid said above one step farther with regards to the silliness--if it's a straw man and you therefore don't fit the description of the straw man, since it's usually a grouping of inaccurate generalizations and fears, *why* must you feel attacked?

You know the old saying . . . First they came for the Jews, but I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. You know how it goes. I promise you that if they come for you, I'll speak up. But I won't be able to speak up if you've already let them come for me.
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#46 Nick

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Posted 05 November 2003 - 12:32 AM

Here's all I really care to say about this:

My comment about a "bible-beater" Barbie was made with tongue firmly in cheek.  I was not lumping other Christians and Christian fundamentalists into that same category.  That was not my intent.

Genesis, I meant no offense in saying that I "don't understand the fundamentalist outcry for these kinds** of things" in a close but separate paragraph from where I made the "bible-beater" remark.  I did not intend to imply that all fundamentalists were generally bible beaters, only that there is often Fundamental outcry for similar occurences.  And I don't feel that's an unfair generalization.  Being strongly opposed to anything against scripture is a key difference between Fundamentalism and some other forms of Christianity.  Strongly opposed, therefore, often leads to some form of "outcry".  I think that's a fair statement.  

**emphasis added to clarify for Drew that I'm not talking about any actual outcry about this doll, only occurences of outcry against similar commercial products.

I think it's over-reacting and blowing things way out of proportion to jump to the conclusion that this is yet-another-Christian-bashing-thread™.  I've heard this song and dance before.  It happens a lot here.  It seems like certain people are sincerely trying to get offended by even mildly un-positive remarks about their life philosophies.

-Nick

Edited by Nick, 05 November 2003 - 12:34 AM.


#47 Perpetual Malcontent

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Posted 05 November 2003 - 03:52 AM

Ok, first of all, I started this tread out of intellectual curiosity.  I wasn't trying to make any sort of judgement call or value base.  

I know this has no direct relevance to the barbie doll, but I should explain my religious views.  Maybe it can clear some of this up.  I am not one to back down to conflict, but it really is unnecessary here.  

I'm a Buddhist.  Part of that, a big part for me, is tolerance.  There are many paths to Enlightenment.  I believe that completely.  To me, that says there is no wrong faith.  All the major religions say to treat each other well.  The kernal of truth in all religions is to be kind.  I believe that if you are a good person; Christian, Muslim, Pagan, Buddhist, atheist, whatever; then you will be rewarded (personally I believe that is the end of the cycle of death and rebirth, but does it really matter?).  

However, I also don't feel one should force his or her will over another, at least not in America.  Say what you feel, sure, that's totally cool with me.  In fact, I encourage it.  How else can you learn unless you learn as many views as possible?  I feel that learning these views can make the world better.  Most conflicts come from ignorance of each others worlds.  But learning and forcing are very different.  I will always fight on the side of choice.  After all, what is freedom if not the freedom to choose?

So to those who feel that they are under attack, it was not by me.  As well as being a Buddhist, I am a social scientist.  The last two months I have been studying a group in depth.  It has opened me up to seeing other points of view with clearer eyes.  I do not object to the fundamentalist choice.  It is not the choice for me, but it is for others and that is good.  As long as the fundamentalist does not force his or her will upon others, they should be allowed to live as they choose.

One more thing, in response to some comments made here, the "bible thumper" Barbie type jokes (along with the gay Ken) were offensive to me.  I don't care the background of the speaker.  They came across as a stab at the groups they represent.  I thought they were in bad taste.  I don't find it funny to insult the beliefs and lifesytles of others like that.  

And as to the remark that no fundamentalists objected to this doll

http://forums.christ...m/html/P719328/

That is where I first came across the subject.  Its a long read, but some members there were suggesting that the dolls be burned and that they were posessed by Satan.  Those types of comments were in the minority, but they were still there.
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#48 Drew

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Posted 05 November 2003 - 09:24 AM

Senar, on Nov 5 2003, 02:52 AM, said:

That is where I first came across the subject.  Its a long read, but some members there were suggesting that the dolls be burned and that they were posessed by Satan.  Those types of comments were in the minority, but they were still there.
Ah, so it was on a message board. You know, you'll find all kinds posting on message boards. ;)  

What bothered me was the way people immediately jumped on the "Oh, those stupid Fundamentalists" bandwagon again.

Quote

I've heard this song and dance before. It happens a lot here. It seems like certain people are sincerely trying to get offended by even mildly un-positive remarks about their life philosophies.

Now I may or may not be a Fundamentalist. (I'm not actually sure if I qualify. There's a very specific, historic definition when that word is refering to American Christians.) I'm not a Catholic, and I'm not a Baptist. But I am a Christian, and when I see any remarks that belittle people for their faith, I'm going to say something. What might seem like a "mildly unpositive" remark to you, may cut right to the heart of others. Perhaps you could try to see things from someone else's point of view. So if you want my complaints to go away, the "mildly unpositive" remarks will have to stop. Because I'm not going anywhere.  :cool:
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#49 Godeskian

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Posted 05 November 2003 - 09:27 AM

Clicked the link, considered signing up to debate some of these people, went away at TOS point 17 where it says you cannot make a pro-other religion statement of any kind without risking a banning

that's no way to have a debate in my eyes

ah well, guess i'm sticking to EI

Defy Gravity!


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#50 Norville

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Posted 05 November 2003 - 11:17 AM

Quote

So if you want my complaints to go away, the "mildly unpositive" remarks will have to stop. Because I'm not going anywhere.

Fine, Drew, so I suppose that Senar can't comment on the way her apparently Fundamentalist students reacted to her: wanted to slap her, for example. That was a mildly unpositive experience for her, I suspect.

I suppose I can't comment about an incident that caused a negative reaction from me: two extremely simpering women once came up to me when I was reading at a science fiction convention, tried to engage me in conversation (although I obviously didn't want my reading interrupted by strangers), interrogated me about the convention, then finally asked "Do you know Jesus?" Now, I wasn't utterly irreligious at the time, but my reaction was to want to yell "Why didn't you ask that in the first place, if that was your point in talking to me?!" I didn't do that. I just said something like "Yes, thanks," and went back to reading, ignoring them completely. They sat and stared at me for about 5 more minutes, then wandered away again, looking for fresher meat than I'd proved to be. Well, I'm glad that they feel they should proselytize at Godless sf conventions.

What about the woman who handed me tracts while I was helping her at work? Isn't that a *little* intrusive? :rolleyes:

If you want to complain about my not wanting to be proselytized, because I'm happy with what I already believe, fine, then allow the right of others to complain about your complaints. ;)
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Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
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#51 Drew

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Posted 05 November 2003 - 11:24 AM

There's a big difference between relating a specific negative experience and labelling a group of people in a derogatory fashion. Surely you understand that.
"Someone must have slandered Josef K., for one morning, without having done anything wrong, he was arrested."

#52 Perpetual Malcontent

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Posted 05 November 2003 - 11:39 AM

Drew, on Nov 5 2003, 10:24 AM, said:

There's a big difference between relating a specific negative experience and labelling a group of people in a derogatory fashion. Surely you understand that.
I don't mean to be rude, but who has attacked the group?
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#53 Shalamar

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Posted 05 November 2003 - 11:45 AM

Drew, not a person here has critized any one for their beliefs, nor have people 'jumped on the bandwagon' saying 'Oh those stupid fundalemntalists."

People have said they didn't understand the outcries made by some groups, some have offered their opinion on People who have intruded on their lives.

Others have stated things that are documentable about fundalmentalist groups, (Yes, it is documented that many fundamentalist groups are intollerant concerning what they see as evil and wrong..hey its their right to be that if they choose, and this is an equally valid claim for other groups and individuals as well...)

and have made mention of Their perceptions...i.e....I think

What? People are not allowed to have opinions any longer?  That they can no longer post OPINIONS here for fear of offending some one?

#54 QueenTiye

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Posted 05 November 2003 - 11:51 AM

O.k. jumping in to ask everyone to give Drew some breathing room.

I believe he just said that he's perhaps oversensitive (at least that's how I read it)... and I think it is reasonable for him to be that way, given some of the taxing subjects and the tenor of them in this forum... so I think it is perfectly acceptable for him to be human... :)

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Drew}}}}}}}}}}}}}}  Thank you, as always, for speaking up and continuing to share your point of view.

and {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{ALL}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} or more specifically all who are participating in this thread.... I think everyone has a valid contribution to make to the topic! :)

Oops - I need to edit to add this other thought... mildly unpleasant opinions (or very unpleasant ones, or very cheerful ones...) are still opinions... I agree with everyone who said that there is no real valid way to say "stop offering your opinion."  There is, otoh, a very valid way of saying "be kind..."

QT

Edited by QueenTiye, 05 November 2003 - 12:00 PM.

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#55 Godeskian

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Posted 05 November 2003 - 01:09 PM

with respect to those involved. Everyone does have the right to an opinion, and if it turns out that the majority of people react to a statement with a differing opinion than the person who posted it,

then to be honest, i don't see the need to 'back off'. Drew wasn't attack (that I could see) he was told that by a number of people that they disagreed with his premise.

it's part of a debate, when everyone agrees there is no debate.

Defy Gravity!


The Doctor: The universe is big. It's vast and complicated and ridiculous and sometimes, very rarely, impossible things just happen and we call them miracles... and that's a theory. Nine hundred years and I've never seen one yet, but this will do me.


#56 Norville

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Posted 05 November 2003 - 11:52 PM

I wanted to add that there's something about my waiting at bus stops that brings out proselytizers or stalker-types. I've had Mormon missionaries coming by to convert me. (Re: the stalker-type, there was an Afghan who kept visiting me at a bus stop in 2001, disappeared for a while after 9/11, turned up again some months later, but hasn't been seen again for some time -- he'd talk endlessly at me, ask me endless questions, would not be dissuaded unless I just walked away and disappeared...)

But just to balance this... I was heading to work by bus today, had to sit down next to a guy, and he proceeded to rant about politics to me. This was a leftist anti-Bush guy, who thought that the last good Republican was Eisenhower. I replied to a few of his comments, then decided to just respond "Yeah... mm-hmm..." -- and even when I got up for my stop and was leaving, he was still ranting! :lol: You may notice that I didn't want to be proselytized by the left, either. ;)

I'd quote Scott Beach's recorded piece by the title "Religion and Politics", but would have to find it on tape. He was a San Francisco celebrity (radio host), this routine was from the '70s, and it holds true today. Has anyone else here heard it?
"The dew has fallen with a particularly sickening thud this morning."
- Marvin the Paranoid Android, "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy"

Rules for Surviving an Autocracy
Rule#1: Believe the Autocrat.
Rule#2: Do not be taken in by small signs of normality.
Rule#3: Institutions will not save you.
Rule#4: Be outraged.
Rule#5: Don't make compromises.
Rule#6: Remember the future.
- Masha Gessen
http://www.nybooks.c...s-for-survival/

#57 tennyson

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Posted 06 November 2003 - 12:05 AM

Considering I was born in 1977 I would say not, but I do get Mormon missionaries around the same time every year going door to door in my building. It's inevitable like the start of the school year or the changing of the seasons.
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#58 Techfreak Ziana

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Posted 06 November 2003 - 12:06 AM

Shalamar, on Nov 4 2003, 09:40 AM, said:

...
Edited to add that Why the heck arn't my quotes working here?... and back a second time after checking AQG, and still no luck on the quotes problem..sheesshhhhhhhh!
~siiigh~

There is no "quotes problem".

I fixed your post and bolded the incorrect quote tag.

Every single darn time someone complains about a "quotes problem", it's just a mistake they made that they overlooked.   :rolleyes:

This time, there was a space in one of the tags, in between the word 'quote' and the ']'.

Why the heck do people always assume that when they have a problem, the software is at fault, and not some simple mistake of their own that they didn't notice? sheesshhhhhhhh!  :sarcasm:

{{{{Shal}}}} ;)
<table border="0"><tr><td valign="top">Posted Image<td align="center"><font face="Verdana">-=-=-=-=-= Techfreak Ziana =-=-=-=-=-
<font size="1">3.12 GCS/MC/IT/L/O d- s-:- a? C++++ UL
P+ L+ W+++ N+ w+ M-- PS+++ PE Y+ D+
PGP-- t+@ 5++ X R tv+ b+++ DI++++ UF++</font>
"Exciting things are coming!" -Nikola Tesla</font></td><td valign="top">Posted Image</td></tr><tr><td align="center" colspan="3">Posted Image</td></tr></table>

#59 Shalamar

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Posted 06 November 2003 - 03:00 AM

oh TZ, I know it wasn't the software, really, I knew it was me, but blind as a bat me couldn't see it... :p  mea culpa to the software...

Much Thanks TZ!!!!! :D
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Respect for One's Self / Respect for Others / Responsibility for One's Words & Actions.

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#60 Delvo

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Posted 06 November 2003 - 06:20 AM

I once worked at a USGS environmental research station that heavily used computers, where a simple little mistake that you think you should have caught long ago when you do catch it was called a "Shift key problem" or a "Shift problem"; the joke was that as soon as you called someone else to help, they'd walk in your office and immediately say, "Oh, you just need to hold down the Shift key while you do that!" It didn't take long for this to be transformed into an exclamation for use when such a problem is discovered: "Oh, Shift!"



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