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Dean apologizes for "Confederate Flag" remark

Elections 2004 Democrats Howard Dean

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#21 Bad Wolf

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Posted 06 November 2003 - 02:52 PM

Not at all.  Clinton may have been an idiot about being faithful to his wife but that has nothing to do with what I'm talking about here.
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#22 Drew

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Posted 06 November 2003 - 02:55 PM

There are many ways Dean reminds me of Clinton in ’92, not the least of which is his inexplicable popularity which seems to be based on nothing but itself.

Clinton made so many stumbles on the way to the White House in ’92, I still can't quite figure out how he got the nomination let alone the Presidency. He won in spite of himself--something made quite clear in the film "The War Room."

Edited by Drew, 06 November 2003 - 03:00 PM.

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#23 G1223

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Posted 06 November 2003 - 03:04 PM

Una Salus Lillius, on Nov 6 2003, 07:52 PM, said:

Not at all.  Clinton may have been an idiot about being faithful to his wife but that has nothing to do with what I'm talking about here.
Let's see if I remember one thing of the 92 campain. "I smoked but did not inhale." I will leave it to others to find his gaffs

Bascially it was from this point I knew Bill as was as stand for his issues  such as Don't ask Don't tell. Basically Gary Truedue had a cartoon of clinton as a waffel I would have just gone a sheet becasue he went whichever way the wind blew.
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#24 Smitty

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Posted 06 November 2003 - 03:11 PM

MuseZack, on Nov 6 2003, 01:32 PM, said:

There's a reason why people in the African American community compare voting for a Republican to a chicken voting for Colonel Sanders, and it's not just about fear of losing Affirmative Action...
Zack are you sure you want to reference fried chicken in your analogy.

Oh and that bit about supposed Republican operatives harrasing black voters in Mississippi is a load of bull. How were they harrassed, some guy with a video camera? Video cameras aren't off limits, ooh maybe news crews were harrassing them. :eek:

I hate to break it to you folks but guys flying a Confederate flag does not = racist.

I know that's not politically correct to say but there you go.

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#25 Drew

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Posted 06 November 2003 - 03:33 PM

Quote

"Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean told a Tallahassee audience today that southerners have to quit basing their votes on 'race, guns, God and gays.'" 
:eh:
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#26 Rhea

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Posted 06 November 2003 - 03:48 PM

Smitty, on Nov 6 2003, 01:11 PM, said:

MuseZack, on Nov 6 2003, 01:32 PM, said:

There's a reason why people in the African American community compare voting for a Republican to a chicken voting for Colonel Sanders, and it's not just about fear of losing Affirmative Action...
Zack are you sure you want to reference fried chicken in your analogy.

Oh and that bit about supposed Republican operatives harrasing black voters in Mississippi is a load of bull. How were they harrassed, some guy with a video camera? Video cameras aren't off limits, ooh maybe news crews were harrassing them. :eek:

I hate to break it to you folks but guys flying a Confederate flag does not = racist.

I know that's not politically correct to say but there you go.

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It does where my family comes from (Texas, George, S. Carolina). Good old boys yearning for the bad old days. And out here in California, it's usually the prerogative of racist wannabes.
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#27 MuseZack

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Posted 06 November 2003 - 03:51 PM

Smitty, on Nov 6 2003, 08:11 PM, said:

MuseZack, on Nov 6 2003, 01:32 PM, said:

There's a reason why people in the African American community compare voting for a Republican to a chicken voting for Colonel Sanders, and it's not just about fear of losing Affirmative Action...
Zack are you sure you want to reference fried chicken in your analogy.

Oh and that bit about supposed Republican operatives harrasing black voters in Mississippi is a load of bull. How were they harrassed, some guy with a video camera? Video cameras aren't off limits, ooh maybe news crews were harrassing them. :eek:

I hate to break it to you folks but guys flying a Confederate flag does not = racist.

I know that's not politically correct to say but there you go.

-cs™


Quote

I hate to break it to you folks but guys flying a Confederate flag does not = racist.

That was actually the point that Dean was trying to make, albeit in a ham-fisted way.  That the Democrats should be trying to figure out ways to win back white Southerners.   I despise the Confederate flag and everything it stands for, but I also realize that as a symbol it means different things to different people and not everyone who flies the flag is a bigot.


Quote

Oh and that bit about supposed Republican operatives harrasing black voters in Mississippi is a load of bull. How were they harrassed, some guy with a video camera? Video cameras aren't off limits, ooh maybe news crews were harrassing them.


It wasn't just the video cameras.  It was operatives standing with the poll workers checking signatures and even trying to enter the voting booths uninvited-- both violations of law.  And in a state with a history and present like Mississippi, I can't imagine why black voters might find this behavior intimidating.

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#28 Delvo

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Posted 06 November 2003 - 03:59 PM

MuseZack, on Nov 6 2003, 01:32 PM, said:

There's a reason why people in the African American community compare voting for a Republican to a chicken voting for Colonel Sanders, and it's not just about fear of losing Affirmative Action...
Ya, it's because they (the ones making that claim, not the race) are a bunch of brainwashed raving lunatics who buy into absolutely ludicrous slander bearing no resemblance at all to the reality that they've surrendered all grasp of. (...about the party that most closely matches their own views and desires on most issues)

#29 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 06 November 2003 - 04:01 PM

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Kimmer: And appealing to poor white voters with confederate flags (hmmm ... wasn't that about bigotry and hatred of blacks?) is different how? And how is his stand good?

Oh please don’t let the sky fall someone up there… ;)  but I agree with Rhea on the Confederate Flag issue.  That flag has been through so much negative history that it has the stain of slavery and racism attached to it.  That is an inescapable reality the flag was the symbol of the Confederacy.  A nation that was to be founded on protecting slavery as a system and more than likely spreading it as a stain had it not been for the Union.  Disconnecting the flag from what it was a symbol of originally is simply silly in my eyes.
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#30 Delvo

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Posted 06 November 2003 - 04:06 PM

Drew, on Nov 6 2003, 01:55 PM, said:

Clinton made so many stumbles on the way to the White House in ’92, I still can't quite figure out how he got the nomination let alone the Presidency. He won in spite of himself
That's what always scared me the most about him: the way other people, even those who rightfully were supposed to be his enemies, just kept bowing down to serve him all the time in any way, regardless of whether such servitude would harm THEM. Spooky, creepy, eerie stuff.

#31 QuiGon John

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Posted 06 November 2003 - 04:28 PM

Just one comment on the Dean thing:

I saw his soundbites with the Confederate flag thing last night.  Then I saw another sound bite wherein he tried to explain, but ended up admitting the flag was "a symbol of evil."

Now, I can understand thinking the Confederate flag is evil.  I can understand trying to defend your comments on the grounds that you were not trying to say something evil.  But...um... what are we saying when we make both those statements?

"I want to be the candidate of evil voters!  Vote for me, no matter how much of a slimeball you are!"  :blink:

I'm hoping I can vote for a Democrat in the upcoming election.  I'm equally hoping it won't be Howard Dean.  :unsure:

#32 Cardie

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Posted 06 November 2003 - 06:39 PM

^^Ditto, John. Unfortunately, I still can't find one of them I want to back. I always thought Dean was a jerk, and I'm not at all surprised to be proven right.

Believe me, people who go out of their way to display Confederate flag logos are at the very least thumbing their noses at the idea of the Federal government.  The Civil War was fought because of southerners not wanting Washington to tell them how to deal with their slaves, and the turn of the South to the Republican party and the hoisting of the Confederate flag on our South Carolina capitol building only occurred when the Democratic party became the party of desegregation and civil rights legislation.  Whether Confederate Flag advocates are bigots might be debateable, but the flag stands for the desire for white southern power over anyone who would challenge it.

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#33 Rov Judicata

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Posted 06 November 2003 - 06:43 PM

Quote

I'm not talking about pandering to the black vote. I'm talking about pandering to white racism in the South (see any citation on Nixon's Southern Strategy)-- either overtly or through the artful manipulation of symbols--

Citing Nixon is a long way from 'every election sinec 1968'

Quote

and taking measures to keep black people away from the polls in the South, such as sending poll watchers to harrass and challenge voters in black districts (this happened just this Tuesday in Mississippi)

All I saw vere some video cameras by news crews, which is perfectly legal. There was a camera at mine too, and I even saw people being interviewed. Do you (or anybody) have a source on the things you mentioned in the later post? I can't seem to find it via google news.

Quote

and purging the voter rolls in Florida-- in the process illegally denying thousands of mostly black voters the right to vote in the 2000 Presidential election.

That was mere incompetence, not anything insidious.

http://www.afn.org/~...9/20010909.html

Remember, a county judge and an election supervisor both got cut off the list because they had name similar to felons; it was just poor planning. It's a problem, but it's hardly the insidious racism it's made out to be. It needs to be fixed, of course.

<All of this is 'unless I missed something'. If there's been an investigation which found that disenfranchising Blacks was an intentional GOP plot, link me.>

Does the GOP still have race relation problems? Yeah, there are definitely racists still within the party. The Democrats, however, have their share of skeletons too, race-related and otherwise.

As to what John & Cardie said: Edwards is looking surprisingly good, although he has his issues. I would love for there to be two viable candidates in '04, and I'm still not sure how I'm going to vote.

Edited by Javert Rovinski, 06 November 2003 - 06:44 PM.

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#34 Lover of Purple

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Posted 06 November 2003 - 07:49 PM

My problem with anyone displaying the confederate flag is that, even if they are not racist, they are thumbing their noses at the people for who the flag has bad memories. Not what I call thinking of their fellow human.

#35 Bad Wolf

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Posted 06 November 2003 - 07:53 PM

Well said bro.  They know what that flag stands for to so many people.

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#36 the 'Hawk

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Posted 06 November 2003 - 07:57 PM

There was once a time when I had a girlfriend who lived in South Carolina.

At the time, I was all about the "noble cause" myth of the Confederacy, the whole states'-rights-Cavalier-southern-gentry idea. I was, of course, under no pretenses save those of misguided love. I knew who lost. And I was surprised to see what I've always recognized as another country's sovereign flag flying over some of the houses as we drove through the state.

I mean, it's a beautiful state, from Columbia to Charleston and up and down the coast and all over. I'd love to go back. But I knew absolutely nothing about it. So I said to her, "it's neat that they still honour their heritage like that."

She looked at me like I'd wounded her with a bayonet. "What heritage is that? Hatred?"

The Confederate flag, you see, doesn't have the historical or heritage feel to it anymore. It's been subsumed into another meaning.

I didn't know that-- I was raised in Canada. All we ever did was welcome slaves in St. Catharines and charge Clement Vallandigham for some rooms in Windsor.

Howard Dean, on the other hand, regardless of whether he does or doesn't realize that, should really know better. You see, the only constituency I had to worry about was a now-ex-girlfriend (who, not surprisingly, dumped me because we had so little in common---- that, and because I was a needy little git).

But Dean's a far more public figure than I am. And he should really mind whose support he's losing in his attempts to get everyone to like him.

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#37 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 06 November 2003 - 09:44 PM

the'Hawk, on Nov 6 2003, 07:57 PM, said:

At the time, I was all about the "noble cause" myth of the Confederacy, the whole states'-rights-Cavalier-southern-gentry idea.
But Lincoln, Grant, and Sherman are so much cooler… :)
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#38 QuiGon John

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Posted 06 November 2003 - 09:53 PM

CJ AEGIS, on Nov 6 2003, 09:44 PM, said:

But Lincoln, Grant, and Sherman are so much cooler… :)
^ Agreed.  The Civil War has been just about my #1 interest these last few months, but I've never been a Southern sympathizer.  Grant's my man.  Underrated general, Grant. ;)

#39 Norville

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Posted 06 November 2003 - 11:57 PM

Quote

Quote

Rather, he strikes me as a "say anything" kinda guy, whether he really believes what he's saying or not. It's like someone's programmed a Candidate-bot, and "Stump v1.2" is working perfectly. (Those aren't bugs . . . those are "features.")

At the risk of bringing the sky down on the forum, I have to say that this is how he strikes me too.

You got it. I've already said somewhere that I'm not impressed with the "candidates" put forward. If those are candidates, just hand Bush the election. :rolleyes:

Quote

"Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean told a Tallahassee audience today that southerners have to quit basing their votes on 'race, guns, God and gays.'"

*shakes head* *sigh* And he can, of course, tell them to ignore their right to vote as they please...

Now, me, I've got Southern heritage, a heritage I've mostly tried to avoid; I've prefered to consider myself Californian (even if that, itself, has become too controversial for sane discussion). I have no love for the Confederate flag. But if they choose to consider themselves more patriotic and religious than the rest of the country, isn't that their right?

Quote

I'm hoping I can vote for a Democrat in the upcoming election. I'm equally hoping it won't be Howard Dean.

Oh, why even bother voting for a party that can't field a decent candidate? "It's my party and I'll cry if I want to." ;)
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#40 Rov Judicata

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Posted 06 November 2003 - 11:58 PM

Norville, on Nov 6 2003, 09:57 PM, said:

Oh, why even bother voting for a party that can't field a decent candidate? "It's my party and I'll cry if I want to." ;)
I think you just found the theme song for whoever wins the nomination. :wideeyed:.
St. Louis must be destroyed!

Me: "I have a job and five credit cards and am looking into signing a two year lease.  THAT MAKES ME OLD."
Josh: "I don't have a job, I have ONE credit card, I'm stuck in a lease and I'm 28! My mom's basement IS ONE BAD DECISION AWAY!"
~~ Josh, winning the argument.

"Congress . . . shall include every idiot, lunatic, insane person, and person non compos mentis[.]" ~1 U.S.C. § 1, selectively quoted for accuracy.



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