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Baghdad Burning

Iraq Baghdad War

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#21 shambalayogi

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 03:55 PM

I will only say this about this hot topic: Throughout history of human conflict this has often been true, one man/woman's freedom fighters and another man/woman/government's terrorists.
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#22 Lover of Purple

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 04:11 PM

[Sarcasm]Oh yeah, that's the USA..we LOVE destroying things. It's NOT because of any proof that the attacks are coming from the area. We are so evil.

Maybewe should just tell our soldiers to line up to be killed easilywhile we are at it. [/Sarcasm]

Listen, I appreciate other viewpoints. Anyone that knows me is aware of that, but this constantly thinking that the USA is doing these things without reason is getting sickening. Why is it so hard to believe that we have information that points to what we do and we do it as needed. Why is there so much hate of this country? Even among my own countrymen. I'm not talking about anyone that disagrees with the USA, I'm talking about those that always assume that we are wrong/evil/stupid. It seems like many are wiling to take what anyone besides an American says as truth while thinking anything an American says is a lie.

Bottomline, I don't see enough facts to think that the USA is just destroying homes because we can. I'm pretty sure at this point that we have good information used in the decision.

I hate that peoples homes get destroyed, but I hate it more that a country we are now trying to help wants to kill us. Maybe we should leave and let Saddam go back in power, the world seems to want to approve of anything he does. He can then kill his own people instead of our troops.

Sorry..rant over and I'll leave now. I should know better than to come in here.I know how much anti-Americanism there seems to be around here.

Edited to add: Shaun, this isn't directed at you. You just posted the information. Thanks!

Edited by Lover of Purple, 20 November 2003 - 04:19 PM.


#23 Jid

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 04:27 PM

Here's my problem with the destroying of homes, LoP.  And it has absolutely nothing to do with hating the US on my part.

Here's a quote from the Press release Kevin Street linked to above:

Quote

Hickey said the four homes were destroyed Sunday because enemy fighters lived and met there. Leveling the homes will force the fighters to find other meeting places, he said.

Count me mystified as to how this is a good idea.

Seriously.

Great, they meet there.  So, um, how about waiting till they meet, then swooping down and arresting them?

Simply put, I fail to see how making several families homeless is going to help.

Great, they have to find new places to meet.  Stellar.  Let's blow those up too.  

Eventually, as the logic goes on, they'll be driven into the desert, where they can be found easily and arrested.  Or so they hope.  Never mind that we may have to level an entire city first.  Or three cities, leaving thousands homeless.

You know what gets at me the most?  It seems like the US is keen on trying one of Israel's strategies on the west bank.  

I'm only hoping it doesn't turn into another Intifadah. :(
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#24 Lover of Purple

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 04:33 PM

I understand, Jid. But my problem is so much is second and third hand information. I don't know what the asnwer is short of giving up and letting the butcher have it back. I don't know if there is another answer. I'll still hold judgement until I know more.

See, I have no problem with Jid's response. He gave a reason. It's the responses that have no reason except to condemn the US that bothers me.

#25 the 'Hawk

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 04:47 PM

LORD of the SWORD, on Nov 20 2003, 04:38 PM, said:

I'm sure Hitler used the same logic...His troups weren't terrorists, NO, they were freedom fighters. :sarcasm:
Oooh, this thread is chock full of rich, creamy Godwin!

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#26 Shaun

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 04:52 PM

^Funny how perspectives are different. I've thought for quite a while now that this particular forum has become far too dominated by certain right-wing members of the group. Not that they don't have a right to state their opinion or to comment on subjects,  but I do have serious problems with the way subjects that don't fit in with right-wing thinking are greeted here.

Also it's not anti-American to disagree with the policies employed by the current Administration or to dislike the current Adminstration. I'm getting thoroughly sick of that particular idea being wheeled out time and again.

Something must be done to deal with the current guerilla situation in Iraq and improve the security situation,  that's something I agree with, I also think it would be a mistake to pull out at this juncture, but I don't believe the 'Teeth and Claws' heavy handed approach is going to do anything other than increase the hatred and alienation Iraqis feel towards the Coalition and drive even more Iraqis to take up arms.

Baghdad Burning is the name of Riverbend's blog and she's a young woman in her mid-20's living in Baghdad and I've no reason to think anything other than that she's a real person. She's been as frustrated and disturbed by the actions of the Jihadis at times as much as any one of us. What she's describing is reality rather than propaganda. To describe her as a terrorist is just plain outrageous and beneath contempt. If she's a terrorist then so am I.  :glare:
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#27 the 'Hawk

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 04:58 PM

Shaun, on Nov 20 2003, 05:52 PM, said:

To describe her as a terrorist is just plain outrageous and beneath contempt. If she's a terrorist then so am I.  :glare:
Hey, Shaun, you just gotta remember that some of our members tend to confuse "terrorist" with "liberal" some days, too. So if you're a terrorist, join my splinter cell.

And if that gets me sh*t for saying so, I'll deal with that as it comes. I'm just as offended by some of the remarks I've seen made in this thread as Shaun. Possibly more so.

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#28 QuiGon John

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 04:59 PM

Lover of Purple, on Nov 20 2003, 04:11 PM, said:

. Why is it so hard to believe that we have information that points to what we do and we do it as needed. Why is there so much hate of this country? Even among my own countrymen. I'm not talking about anyone that disagrees with the USA, I'm talking about those that always assume that we are wrong/evil/stupid. It seems like many are wiling to take what anyone besides an American says as truth while thinking anything an American says is a lie.
Speaking as somebody who loves America very much, but has been accused (IRL, not online) of assuming America's in the wrong too much...

Because if we're at fault, it's our mistake to undo.  We can figure out what we're doing wrong and correct it and the problem won't exist anymore.

If they're at fault, it means there are angry people out there who want to kill us, and I can't do anything about that, and it might go on forever, for all I know.

Seems more efficient to assume there is fault-- some, at least-- on our part and, guided by that assumption, to fix those problems we can fix.  The rest will either take care of itself or it won't, but at least we'll know we did everything we could...

Does that make any sense?  Looking back, I'm not sure it does?

#29 the 'Hawk

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 05:10 PM

John Burke, on Nov 20 2003, 05:59 PM, said:

if we're at fault, it's our mistake to undo.  We can figure out what we're doing wrong and correct it and the problem won't exist anymore.
If success is the wrong thing to do, where does that leave us?

The United States of America is the most successful country in the world. How do you define that success? Simply by the number of countries over which it wields the silent control of being more capable than they are. The USA has everything. And that, honestly, is enough to get everyone else pissed off.

The USA is in the worst of all possible worlds just by being the best country it can be. It does nothing and it's accused of negligence. It does everything and it's nitpicked, henpecked, and accused of negligence.

Doesn't take much more before they'll retract altogether. I might be hard on the USA, but I respect and appreciate what their intentions are, and what they really do want to see come for the rest of the world. 'cause it's lonely at the top.

Sure, they flame out, they make mistakes, they undermine their own credibility and they come off a thousand different ways, not a single one that's not negative being newsworthy. But I prefer a world *with* the USA to one *withOUT*.

I mean, really, who else would you want in charge? China? France? Russia? the British? Rome? Take your pick. None of them can really match the US. (Except Britain, but that's just because they've been doing it for so long.... God save the Queen!)

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#30 Lover of Purple

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 05:21 PM

Hi John.

Hey, no problem. I don't always agree with the way things are done but I also don't think it is right to assume that since the US is involved then the US MUST be wrong. I want to fix the things that the US does wrong also. I want to be clear that I do not follow my country blindly, but I will give it the benefit of doubt until I have enough information.

And I would never say that just because an American disagrees with a decision the government makes they are a traitor. I've never called Liberals traitors either. Just because I don't agree with them (usually.....sometimes I agree) doen't mean I think they love this country less than I do. We just have different ideas.

Anyway, back to what you said John. Our way of handling these things are different. You say you assume we are in the wrong while I like to hope my country is trying to be in the right and assume we aren't wrong. Now, if I find out differently then I will act accordingly (as I am sure you do also). I guess patriots come in two flavors: optimist and pessimists. :)
But you want to improve the USA, many I see only want to blame and destroy. I guess that is my complaint. Disagree with the US all you want if you want to improve it. If you only want to slam it, well talk to the hand.;)

Shaun, I read many posts here and most of the posters do seem to be liberal or at least left of center. Some are far right and some are middle. Often I do see a strong left influence. Is that wrong? Who am I to say, it's just different from me. I have no problem with anyone disagreeing with the administration (heck Lil thinks George W. is the anti-christ and her and I get along great..sorry Lil ). I happen to like the man and think he is doing great. DO I always agree with him? Heck no!! He is human.

I think both sides like to "roll out" things and snide remarks and I try to avoid that. But hey, I'm human also...okay Trancer.

And I don't think that Bagdad Burning is a terrorist. Never did, so I disagree with G on that one (If that is what you meant G).

Edited for typos.Stupid keyboard ;)

Edited by Lover of Purple, 20 November 2003 - 05:32 PM.


#31 Consubstantial

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 05:43 PM

Quote

Kevin wrote
Destroying the homes of civilians is pretty harsh, but the continual murder of US servicemen is worse.

I can't even begin to say how much this statement disturbs me.  Service people in America today volunteer to serve.  In volunteering, they know and accept that they will put themselves in harm's way.  As I understand it (please correct me if I'm wrong.  Heck some folks here will probably correct me even if I'm right) the death of a service person in combat in the service of his or her country is not considered murder.  If it is then our troops have murdered an awful lot of soldiers from other countries over the years.  Civilians are not soldiers.  Destroying those homes is little different than the terrorist attack on 9/11 except in scale.

An analogy, if you will permit.  I live in neighborhood X.  Sometimes my neighbors come by for a visit.  Neighborhood Y has a McDonalds in it.  My neighbor Joe decided McDonald's is the great Satan and blows it up with all of the workers and customers inside.  In reaction, the government declares war on neighborhood X and destroys my home because Joe had been known to visit me before.  That logic is frelled.

Believing that my human government makes mistakes and working to get that government to correct those mistakes is not anti-American.  I get very tired of hearing the accusation that it is.  Working to improve the character of my government is the essence of what it means to be an American.
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#32 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 06:10 PM

Quote

Why is it so hard to believe that we have information that points to what we do and we do it as needed. Why is there so much hate of this country? Even among my own countrymen. I'm not talking about anyone that disagrees with the USA, I'm talking about those that always assume that we are wrong/evil/stupid. It seems like many are wiling to take what anyone besides an American says as truth while thinking anything an American says is a lie.

I think I can answer this one. It's real simple, actually. See, since the USA doesn't reveal their sources of information for all the world to see...We are naturally evil.  :sarcasm: Guess the people who slam the USA have never heard of "protecting our intelligence sources" or "National Security"...

As for those who constantly criticize how the USA is conducting it's war on terror...It might help to remember what started the war...and more importantly WHO. It wasn't the USA...It was the terrorists that attacked on 9-11.

I think Darrel Worley's song "Have you forgotten" sums up my feelings about those who say we shouldn't be in this war...
"Sometimes you get the point of the sword, sometimes the edge, sometimes the flat of the blade (even if you're the Lord of the Sword) and sometimes you're the guy wielding it. But any day without the Sword or its Lord is one that could've been better  " ~Orpheus.

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#33 Kevin Street

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 06:26 PM

Consubstantial, on Nov 20 2003, 04:43 PM, said:

Quote

Kevin wrote
Destroying the homes of civilians is pretty harsh, but the continual murder of US servicemen is worse.

I can't even begin to say how much this statement disturbs me.  Service people in America today volunteer to serve.  In volunteering, they know and accept that they will put themselves in harm's way.  As I understand it (please correct me if I'm wrong.  Heck some folks here will probably correct me even if I'm right) the death of a service person in combat in the service of his or her country is not considered murder.  If it is then our troops have murdered an awful lot of soldiers from other countries over the years.  Civilians are not soldiers.  Destroying those homes is little different than the terrorist attack on 9/11 except in scale.
Wow, I thought I was the only liberal left in OT. ;) This thread has been very interesting, and your response particularly so, Consubstantial, since you're putting me in the position of defending a war I don't believe in, and a tactic I'm uncertain about. But here goes...

The war in Iraq is supposed to be over, and the Americans won. Saddam is still out there, apparently, and there are an awful lot of guerilla fighters/terrorists attacking the US and other "coalition" troops, Iraqis, and international aid workers every chance they get - but they're not an army. They don't fight battles. They hide among ordinary people and strike from the shadows, killing civilians and troops without discrimination, following none of the conventions of war. So when they kill its murder, imo, and not death on the battlefield. There are no battlefields left in Iraq. Instead of fighting out in the open in conventional battles or surrendering, Saddam is relying on terrorists, which makes him and them criminals.

Something has to be done to root out the Jihadis. I don't know if this is the right strategy - Jid raised some very good objections to it a few posts up and it's hard to disagree with what he said - but at least they're doing something. By destroying the homes of known guerillas, the Americans are trying to stop terrorists. They aren't committing acts of terror themselves, but are instead responding to them. If this method is ineffective and overly brutal, then I hope they'll have the wisdom to stop doing it. But if it succeeds the Americans will save lives, not end them like the terrorists do.


Quote

Believing that my human government makes mistakes and working to get that government to correct those mistakes is not anti-American.  I get very tired of hearing the accusation that it is.  Working to improve the character of my government is the essence of what it means to be an American.

I completely agree.

EDIT: LotS, the war in Iraq has nothing to do with 9/11. The war on terror is a different thing altogether. Iraqis didn't hijack those planes.

Edited by Kevin Street, 20 November 2003 - 06:32 PM.


#34 Uncle Sid

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 06:30 PM

Personally, I don't think that we have enough information on the decision making process to determine exactly what the criteria is for taking down these structures.  We have a no doubt truncated quote from some military and a blogger's feelings on the matter, but honestly, what we might call a "home" can be anything.  It can be a hut, or it could be the White House.  More importantly it can be a structure with reinforced walls, concealed entrances, a good field of fire and a hidden area for stockpiling arms, communications equipment or people.  

And let's be fair here.  If we actually bombed the buildings when there were actual fighters inside meeting to determine how to bomb another US convoy, would people be complaining?  And what if people are being forced to allow their home to be used as a meeting place?  At that point I think it would be time to move out, because even if the US didn't bomb the tar out of your house when it didn't know about a meeting, there's certainly the chance your house is going to be annihiliated (with you in it) if the US does stage a raid during a meeting that they're tipped off to.  I also have a great deal of trouble believeing that any smart terrorist/fighter would trust their meeting location to someone who they had to force into allowing them the use of the facilities.  Sure, I imagine that it happens since intimidation is part and parcel with terrorism, but I don't think we're talking a bout a huge percentage here.  There's just too much of a chance that someone will tip off the Coalition forces if you piss them off.  At the very least, a forced location isn't going to be used more than once or twice.  

And are these people freedom fighters or terrorists?  Freedom fighters don't set off bombs at UN headquarters or other charity groups.  They fight the occupying military and their supporting infrastructure.  Only terrorists aim at civilians working for other groups, even if they are foreigners.  If there were real freedom fighters in Iraq, maybe I'd be thinking differently, but they're not.  The very bes that you can say for them is that some of them simply don't understand what is going on.  However, there are a great many of them who know precisely why we're there and are trying to prevent it from succeeding by any means necessary.
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#35 the 'Hawk

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 06:58 PM

Kevin Street, on Nov 20 2003, 07:26 PM, said:

Wow, I thought I was the only liberal left in OT. ;)
A pain I know all too well.

So this is what it sounds like.... when doves cry.....

No time for that, though! We must retreat! Fall back to the Ivory Tower! FALL BACK!!!

:cool:
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#36 Lord of the Sword

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 07:10 PM

Kevin Street, on Nov 20 2003, 07:26 PM, said:

EDIT: LotS, the war in Iraq has nothing to do with 9/11. The war on terror is a different thing altogether. Iraqis didn't hijack those planes.
I didn't say Iraqi's attacked on 9-11...nor did I say they had anything to do with it. I said Terrorists.
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Looks like the Liberal Elite of Exisle have finally managed to silence the last remaining Conservative voice on the board.

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#37 Kevin Street

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 07:36 PM

But when you said:

Quote

As for those who constantly criticize how the USA is conducting it's war on terror...It might help to remember what started the war...and more importantly WHO. It wasn't the USA...It was the terrorists that attacked on 9-11.

I think Darrel Worley's song "Have you forgotten" sums up my feelings about those who say we shouldn't be in this war...

Which sounds very much like you're saying the Iraq war is part of the War On Terror.

Actually, the US is fighting two different wars at the same time. One localized war in Iraq, and an older war on many different fronts, including (but certainly not limited to) Afghanistan. Each war is being fought for different reasons, even if both of them involve the Middle East.

#38 Rhea

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 07:50 PM

the'Hawk, on Nov 20 2003, 04:58 PM, said:

Kevin Street, on Nov 20 2003, 07:26 PM, said:

Wow, I thought I was the only liberal left in OT. ;)
A pain I know all too well.

So this is what it sounds like.... when doves cry.....

No time for that, though! We must retreat! Fall back to the Ivory Tower! FALL BACK!!!

:cool:
ROTFL!

There are plenty of eevul liberals left in OT! Just ask Delvo.  :angel:
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#39 the 'Hawk

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 07:59 PM

^ Nobody ever expects.... the Liberal Inquisition!

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~ Eomer, LotR:RotK

#40 G1223

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Posted 20 November 2003 - 08:02 PM

There are days where that would be so not funny.
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