[QueenTiye]

Spoilers for the series, up to episode 5...






We now have THREE models of cylon: Original, Organic, and Metahuman. I've got questions...

Starbuck apparently found an oxygen tube inside the organic raider, but later on managed to take her mask off permanently. How? Was there some OTHER oxygen source? And why would the thing have internal oxygen if it breathes?

Also, since the ships are organics inside of metal shells, why aren't the old-model tin-cans obsolete?

AND, why is so much of the tin-can taken up with nothing? They are like walking armor - the wiring for them seems to run along the periphery or something (anyone want to take a guess at how these things are wired?), because entire holes can be blasted into them and they still work.

????

HM07

[tennyson]

It's called redundancy, you destroy one component or section and it can either reroute or bypass around the damaged area and keep fighting. It's nothing that special as far as military design is concerned, modern military equipment has survived worse, A-10 attack aircraft were designed to get back home on one engine and half a wing and Apache attack helicopters have returned from missions with many more and much larger holes in thier structure from larger calibre rounds. They just added that kind of level of redundency to thier footsoldiers.

The Cylon raider didn't have a different oxygen source. Starbuck found the feedtube to the organic brain that was supplying it with oxygen and pulled it out to breath on, then she managed to reseal the hole she had blown in the raider's side and allowed the tube to supply the now sealed enough interior with oxygen. Before then she had her mask on or was breathing from the tube.

[Ilphi]

Actually, I got the impression that we've seen at least Six types of Cylon: Footsoldier, Raider, BoomerCylon, HumanReporterCylon, HumanStubbleGuyCylon, and Number6Cylon (sorry I can't remember some of their more specific names).

And for all we currently know, the Basestar could have some kind of built-in AI like Andromeda which could make it a Seventh Cylon. According to Baltar's note (we assume) at the start of the series there are 12, so that leaves room for another 5 for the writers to play with.

[Ilphi]

Oh, and that's just taking into account the confirmed Cylons. I imagine there's at least one semi-regular that will be revealed... there's a fairly strong theory going on about one character, but you'll have to wait until the season's conclusions do draw your own.

[Christopher]

Ilphi, on Feb 5 2005, 04:50 AM, said:

Actually, I got the impression that we've seen at least Six types of Cylon: Footsoldier, Raider, BoomerCylon, HumanReporterCylon, HumanStubbleGuyCylon, and Number6Cylon (sorry I can't remember some of their more specific names).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The "reporter" was actually a PR agent, Aaron Doral. The stubbly guy on Ragnar was Leoben, an arms dealer.

Actually, I suppose it is a valid question whether the different humanoid Cylons actually represent different models or simply different variations on the "human infiltrator" model. Although the fact that the seductress identified herself as Model #6 does imply that each humanoid variant is a separate model. (Or in her case, supermodel?)

I agree that the base stars may be a seventh model, and I wouldn't be surprised if there were at least one more infiltrator, bringing it to eight. I hope the remaining four aren't all just humanoids -- surely there must be other more mechanical models that would be of use. Say, tanks, heavy-load haulers, construction units, that sort of thing. Indeed, 12 models seems like a small number if so many of them are just different human types.

[Raina]

I think the note said that there were 12 humanoid models.

[Christopher]

Raina, on Feb 5 2005, 10:31 AM, said:

I think the note said that there were 12 humanoid models.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, the note said, verbatim, "There are only 12 Cylon models." And I do seem to recall reading behind-the-scenes interviews in which the creators talked about the soldiers, Raiders and possibly even base stars as being some of the 12 models.

[Delvo]

Some of the industrial purposes could be served not by a separate Cylon for each kind of machine, but one or two models of Cylon brain that can be interchangibly plugged into (or even permanently installed in) more than one kind of body. Then you'd have one or two kinds of Cylon serving as the brains/pilots/operators of the cargo barges, the bulldozers, the recycling plants, the welders and assemblers, et cetera, instead of having to count each one as a separate kind of Cylon and getting 120 models instead of 12.

(And the organic innards of the fighter craft looks like a way of getting back at organic beings by enslaving organisms...)

[Christopher]

Delvo, on Feb 5 2005, 06:48 PM, said:

(And the organic innards of the fighter craft looks like a way of getting back at organic beings by enslaving organisms...)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What was inside the Raider was organs, not organisms. They weren't "enslaved" any more than you enslave your brain and heart and lungs. Stop thinking of it as a biological entity inside a separate vehicle -- think of it as a single, exoskeletal cyborg creature designed to function as a spacegoing fighter.

[Delvo]

I used the plural because there are many of those Raider/fighter things.

The enslavement issue is my own idea, not as being done by the vehicle to the pilot, but as being done to whatever that whole race is by the Cylons. I'm short on other reasons that could justify putting any organic stuff in there at all, regardless of what the relationship is between an individual organic unit and its individual mechanical unit.

[Christopher]

Delvo, on Feb 5 2005, 11:03 PM, said:

The enslavement issue is my own idea, not as being done by the vehicle to the pilot, but as being done to whatever that whole race is by the Cylons.

And why are you assuming that the Raiders are unique in their semi-organic nature? As I mentioned earlier today in another thread, the humanoid Cylons are said to be indistinguishable from us except in autopsy, by some subtle variations on the cellular or chemical level -- which means they are essentially organic, either biological tissue or a synthetic facsimile thereof, perhaps merged with nanotech.

Quote

I'm short on other reasons that could justify putting any organic stuff in there at all, regardless of what the relationship is between an individual organic unit and its individual mechanical unit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Biology is the original nanotech. Evolution has had a lot more time to solve the problems that cybernetics is still struggling to tackle, and a lot of researchers are looking into the possibility of incorporating biological elements into computers and robots. There has been research into using neural tissue as the basis for computers; this is where Voyager got the idea for its "bio-neural gel packs." I read last year about someone inventing a robot that got energy by chemically processing organic matter, essentially digesting food.

Both biology and technology have their own strengths, their own advantages over each other. An entity incorporating both could have the advantages of both.

[G-man]

Actually ...

I rather like the idea of the many types of humans being subsets of Model #6, as this would expand the pallette completely for the type Cylons that are out there.

The other categories are, as previously identified: Centurions, Raiders, and Basestars.

/s/

Gloriosus
the G-man Himself

[QueenTiye]

tennyson, on Feb 5 2005, 02:19 AM, said:

It's called redundancy, you destroy one component or section and it can either reroute or bypass around the damaged area and keep fighting. It's nothing that special as far as military design is concerned, modern military equipment has survived worse, A-10 attack aircraft were designed to get back home on one engine and half a wing and Apache attack helicopters have returned from missions with many more and much larger holes in thier structure from larger calibre rounds. They just added that kind of level of redundency to thier footsoldiers.

OK. Thanks. That doesn't seem quite to fit the evidence, but I'm willing to be wrong!

Ilphi, on Feb 5 2005, 04:50 AM, said:

Actually, I got the impression that we've seen at least Six types of Cylon: Footsoldier, Raider, BoomerCylon, HumanReporterCylon, HumanStubbleGuyCylon, and Number6Cylon (sorry I can't remember some of their more specific names).

And for all we currently know, the Basestar could have some kind of built-in AI like Andromeda which could make it a Seventh Cylon. According to Baltar's note (we assume) at the start of the series there are 12, so that leaves room for another 5 for the writers to play with.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

!!! When I started this post, I assumed that the 12 spoken of in the note were 12 humanoid models, not 12 types of cylons overall. This post lumped Boomer & 6 and stubbleguy and reporter all as the "humanoid type." I have difficulty believing that each one is a totally separate "model" but then again, I'm the one arguing that they each have unique personalities that are consistent no matter where you see them! Interesting...

Christopher, on Feb 5 2005, 09:55 AM, said:

I agree that the base stars may be a seventh model, and I wouldn't be surprised if there were at least one more infiltrator, bringing it to eight.  I hope the remaining four aren't all just humanoids -- surely there must be other more mechanical models that would be of use.  Say, tanks, heavy-load haulers, construction units, that sort of thing.  Indeed, 12 models seems like a small number if so many of them are just different human types.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And still another variation on the theme! Ok. I'll reiterate my main point then, because I want to make sure it's not lost. What I saw was purely mechanical "tin-can" cylons, organic cylons, and metahuman. The reason I've grouped them this way is because bullet wounds to the tin-can models didn't result in bleeding, the way it did for the raider. I knew I was looking at bleeding as soon as I saw it, and we never saw any such thing on the footsoldier models. So I'm assuming that, just as it appeared, the footsoldiers are really metal and wire, with no organic parts, or VERY few.

Are there any other possible configurations?

HM07

[Delvo]

Christopher, on Feb 5 2005, 11:24 PM, said:

And why are you assuming that the Raiders are unique in their semi-organic nature?  As I mentioned earlier today in another thread, the humanoid Cylons are said to be indistinguishable from us except in autopsy, by some subtle variations on the cellular or chemical level -- which means they are essentially organic, either biological tissue or a synthetic facsimile thereof, perhaps merged with nanotech.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I didn't say anything about the "Raiders" being unique. I said it's hard to justify the organic stuff in their case. The basic, original nature of Cylons is mechanical and electronic (the same kind of technology that was banned because of the first Cylon war(s)). Including or even mimicking organic components is a shift away from that natural state for them. You've described how it's useful for them to do so in at least one case: to pass off as human. But that's entirely separate from whether or not they'd have any reason to go that route with the spacefighters.

Christopher, on Feb 5 2005, 11:24 PM, said:

Both biology and technology have their own strengths, their own advantages over each other.  An entity incorporating both could have the advantages of both.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The needs of space combat play right into electronic systems' strengths and organic ones' weaknesses. Today's average number-crunching CPU or video game machine can already figure out three-dimensional movements of multiple objects with better speed, accuracy, and precision than a living brain; we can certainly assume even better than that from Cylon artificial intelligence, and the fact that they're an artificial intelligence means that our science-fiction story here has already postulated non-biological entities with the independent thought and decision-making that you could say is also needed along with the geometrical calculations. And even if you figure that Cylons' non-biological brains still lack something important that they could get from biology instead, like creativity or intuition, you'd still have to consider the cost to the fighter. If you put in living components, now you have to also build in:
1. A cabin heater and possibly a humidifier or dehumidifier
2. Something that replaces CO2 with O2
3. Something that collects either the spare carbon stripped from those molecules or else the whole CO2 molecules, depending on whether you do #2 by chemical reaction or by filtration... plus an O2 source if the latter... and then either stores it, feeds the pure carbon back into the organism as if it were food, or dumps it into space
4. Something that collects and either stores, reprocesses, or dumps the organism's solid and liquid wastes
5. Something that makes it possible to feed and water the organism (valves and hoses for connection to the base ship at least, if you don't do onboard storage)
6. Inertial dampeners such as what protects the Vipers' pilots from the power of their vehicles

So the advantages that you'd supposedly get from having the organic stuff there, which I can't even see being the case at all in the first place in a universe that already gives us intelligences that are purely artificial, would be offset by the weight and heavy power demands of all of that equipment (plus the organic body mass itself).

[Raina]

Quote

No, the note said, verbatim, "There are only 12 Cylon models." And I do seem to recall reading behind-the-scenes interviews in which the creators talked about the soldiers, Raiders and possibly even base stars as being some of the 12 models.

Didn't No.6 say that there were 12 models, and she was no.6? Was it 12 humanoid models, or are all the humanoid models no.6?

[QueenTiye]

Christopher, on Feb 5 2005, 10:46 PM, said:

Delvo, on Feb 5 2005, 06:48 PM, said:

(And the organic innards of the fighter craft looks like a way of getting back at organic beings by enslaving organisms...)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What was inside the Raider was organs, not organisms. They weren't "enslaved" any more than you enslave your brain and heart and lungs. Stop thinking of it as a biological entity inside a separate vehicle -- think of it as a single, exoskeletal cyborg creature designed to function as a spacegoing fighter.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hmm. I'm not clear at all that this is correct.

Raiders clearly have a level of complexity that is different from human biology from most biological organisms that we can think of. Starbuck hacked out this thing's brain and still got it to fly. No comment on why she would think that would work when it wouldn't have worked with most other creatures.

When a brain dies, how do neurons resolve themselves? Pinching nerves to make muscles work is fine and dandy, but I'm not clear that nerves keep working when their main connection is severed. Yet - clearly, in the case of cylon raiders - they DO. So why can't we assume that brains are removable and transplantable into other machines? That would make the actual living entity the brain, and the respective organic bodies merely tools. In which case the various different models of organic machinery really ARE just one model - the organics, and I'd bet the basestars (if they are organic) are simply the most skilled and experienced of the organic brains.

In which case, by the way, cylon civilization becomes truly fascinating...

HM07

[HubcapDave]

I have a quesiton on this to which the answer might be a bit spoilerish:

Does the organic nature of the Raider "Pilot" ever get discussed in future episodes?

[QueenTiye]

Christopher, on Feb 13 2005, 09:24 AM, said:

Handmaiden07, on Feb 13 2005, 12:09 AM, said:

Could be.  And as the series continues, I may finally concede that point.  I'm vascillating as it is, between believing that all cylons have that ability (to sleep) and that all the Sharon models have that ability, or that its programmed into individual units as needed, as you said.  This will probably be discussed more in my Cylon Models thread in EtU.  The gist of my thinking is that the wiring is already built, and that it would be inefficient to have to build it all from scratch.  But that aspect of the discourse is definitely EtU material...

Quote

Christopher said:

Emotion is the essence of true sentience.  Consider the root of the word.  Emotion means that which moves us, which motivates us.  Unthinking machines just follow programs; that's all the motivation they need.  But thinking beings, by definition, have the power of choice.  And what motivates us to make one choice over the other?  Because we prefer it.  Because we find it more appealing, more desirable.  Without emotion, no thinking being has any incentive to choose any course of action at all.  Studies of brain activity have proven that even the most detached, logical decisions, like picking the right answer to a math problem, engage the emotional centers of the brain.

Yeah, but then we've got a few problems already. Unless there's some strict programming, I don't understand what we are supposed to make of cylons at all. My "sleeper module" theory handles that alright - it allows for hormonal shifting to compensate for situations in which the programming might come in conflict with the emotional needs of the situation.

Do re-post this in the EtU thread. I have responses to these, but you're right that this isn't the place for them.

Christopher said:

Handmaiden07 said:

Adama pulls this off on his own personal reputation - the chain of command flows from his own charisma, and his persistence in expecting loyalty.  It isn't dangerous yet, but this was an example of how it could be... Adama expects personal loyalty to rule the military, and this mostly flows comfortably in the chain of command, but when it doesn't, he really doesn't care.  We've seen this with Apollo (who's side are you on?), we've seen this with Kara (go get our girl) and now we've seen it with the soldier who stood aside when he was told to choose.  Adama is a dictator in the making, and one really respects a lot more his reticence to allow the military to become the police...

Except this episode here makes me wonder if he'd really stay true to that stance if he felt the circumstances warranted martial law. Keep in mind that even after his speech about how wrong it was for the military to fulfill a police function, he still granted Roslin's request to do essentially that. So he's already compromising his ideals -- maybe for the right reasons, but it's still a compromise, and the words "slippery slope" spring to mind.

Christopher said:

Handmaiden07 said:

Yeah.  I'm wondering these same things.  My current guess is that most of the human model cylons, if not all, have two levels of programming running... one an emotive human program that acts on specific principles in keeping with the cylon agenda, and one a hardwired programming that keeps that emotive thing in check.  Some or all of the cylons have the ability to resolve the conflicts that arise in this multilevel programming by "falling asleep" when in contact with humans.  That's my current thinking, but I'm sure we don't know enough yet....

Let's follow this up in EtU as well.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ok....

HM07

[Christopher]

Handmaiden07, on Feb 13 2005, 12:09 AM, said:

Could be.  And as the series continues, I may finally concede that point.  I'm vascillating as it is, between believing that all cylons have that ability (to sleep) and that all the Sharon models have that ability, or that its programmed into individual units as needed, as you said.  This will probably be discussed more in my Cylon Models thread in EtU.  The gist of my thinking is that the wiring is already built, and that it would be inefficient to have to build it all from scratch.  But that aspect of the discourse is definitely EtU material...

I don't see what the "wiring" has to do with it. Even setting aside for the moment my perennial objection to the analogy of AI behavior with conventional programming, it would still be something done on the software level rather than the hardware level. I don't see why a sleeper Clyon would need to be "built" any differently from a non-sleeper one -- any more than a PC running Netscape needs to be built differently from a PC running Photoshop.

Also, theoretically you could do this to a human being -- use brainwashing and conditioning and hypnosis and drugs to make her believe she was someone else, but to put in post-hypnotic triggers to remember her mission and become herself temporarily. At least there are plenty of spy stories that claim as much. But that doesn't mean that all humans are sleeper agents.

(Although I should add for the sake of clarity that human "sleeper agents" do know their true identities; the term refers to deep-cover operatives who just live a normal, unassuming life in enemy territory for years if necessary, and are kept on reserve until/unless they're needed, or are laying groundwork for a long-term objective by building trust and rising to a high position. So the term as we use it in BSG discussion has a different meaning than its more conventional use.)

Quote

Christopher said:

Emotion is the essence of true sentience.  Consider the root of the word.  Emotion means that which moves us, which motivates us.  Unthinking machines just follow programs; that's all the motivation they need.  But thinking beings, by definition, have the power of choice.  And what motivates us to make one choice over the other?  Because we prefer it.  Because we find it more appealing, more desirable.  Without emotion, no thinking being has any incentive to choose any course of action at all.  Studies of brain activity have proven that even the most detached, logical decisions, like picking the right answer to a math problem, engage the emotional centers of the brain.

Yeah, but then we've got a few problems already. Unless there's some strict programming, I don't understand what we are supposed to make of cylons at all. My "sleeper module" theory handles that alright - it allows for hormonal shifting to compensate for situations in which the programming might come in conflict with the emotional needs of the situation.

As I often point out, it's a mistake and a stereotype to equate AI behavior with programming. Programming is the equivalent of instinct, reflex, and for that matter emotion. (You don't learn to feel or choose to feel; emotions are automatic, prewired reactions.) Conscious thought, by definition, is not limited by programming. It is influenced by "programmed" factors like emotions, drives and such, but how that influence manifests itself is a matter of choice, experience and the unpredictable concatenation of complex processes within the mind. Programming or its equivalent is just one of the ingredients of intelligent behavior, whether organic or artificial intelligence.

So it's best if you cast aside the "programmed robot" stereotype altogether. It's clear that these Cylons are essentially human in the ways that matter to this discussion. They have a strong sense of cultural identity, a devout and distinctive religious belief system, and the capacity for intense passion, desire, love, hate and childlike curiosity. Forget "programming" -- just think of them as people. Their goals aren't programmed imperatives, they're things they've chosen to believe in and strive for. They deal with conflicts between emotions and goals the same way we do -- which means sometimes not very well. Look at Number Six, how she's gone beyond her original mission to use Baltar and is now acting out of a desire to be with him, to revel in sensuality. She's working for his (and her) self-preservation, even when it's at odds with the Cylons' agenda.

Handmaiden07 said:

Yeah.  I'm wondering these same things.  My current guess is that most of the human model cylons, if not all, have two levels of programming running... one an emotive human program that acts on specific principles in keeping with the cylon agenda, and one a hardwired programming that keeps that emotive thing in check.  Some or all of the cylons have the ability to resolve the conflicts that arise in this multilevel programming by "falling asleep" when in contact with humans.  That's my current thinking, but I'm sure we don't know enough yet....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As I said in the People Tracker, I'm bewildered by this very premise, since I haven't seen one thing in the show which even suggests it, and Six's passionate behavior explicitly contradicts the idea that their human, emotional behavior is separate from their Cylon identity (as does her and Leoben's strongly felt religious fervor).

[DWF]

Quote

As I said in the People Tracker, I'm bewildered by this very premise, since I haven't seen one thing in the show which even suggests it, and Six's passionate behavior explicitly contradicts the idea that their human, emotional behavior is separate from their Cylon identity (as does her and Leoben's strongly felt religious fervor).

You're making the assumption that that isn't all apart of their plan, or that Balter isn't making up her affection in his own mind, we still don't know if she's really a chip in his head or his own dillusion. And if the Cylons truely had that much passion for humanity I doubt very seriously that they would have tried to destroy every human in the colonies.