[tennyson]

I've been looking over my files and an idea occured to me, a series of informational posts about the various militaries and thier international commitments of the nations that have been involved in recent contraversies, kind of a way to get to know the strengths, weaknesses, and general position of various forces. My plan is to go alphabetically through Canada, France, Germany, Italy , Spain and the United Kingom although I will also attempt to do requests in the coming weeks if there is a call for it.
I think it would be helpful to see where certain countries lie with respect to thier ability to move people and thier participation in international organizations as well as show what they have available to contribute in this area.This is a distilation of many sources and for now I will be primarily dealing with the armies involved although naval and airforces will recive mention as well. Now without further addo Canada.

The Canadian Army(or Canadian Land Force Command as it is officially called) had a strength of 20,900, including 1600 women, with about 9000 people in combat formations(as of 2001). The present organization has
1 division headquarters
1 operational task force headquarters
3 mechanized infantry brigade groups
1 independent air defence regiment
1 independent engineer support regiment.

The 1st Canadian Division, based in Kingston, Ontario is committed to NATO but is a "skeleton" formation retaining only a small headquarters staff. Many of the armoured vehicles listed are in fact either in operational reserve or in store. The combat units are supported by a substantial engineering, medical and logistics capability. However, the army lacks a dedicated airbourne force and all avaiation support is controlled by the Air Command.
The Land Command has approximately 2194 armoured vehicles mae up of 114 Leopard C1 tanks, 195 Cougar armoured reconnaissance vehicles, 203 Coyote armoured reconnaissance vehicles, 1214 M113A4 armoured personnel carriers, 199 Bison armoured personnel carriers and 269 Grizzly armoured personnel carriers, almost all of which were manufactured in Canada and are now in storage or in reserve.
These formations are supported by roughly 362 pieces of artillery including 185 M101 105 mm towed howitzers, 28 105mm lifgt-gun towed guns, 58 M109A4 self-propelled howitzers, 34 GDF 35mm antiaircraft guns, and 57 40mm l60 antiaircraft guns. Thier other hardware includes 167 81mm mortors, 800 M72 LAW 66mm antitank weapons, 1040 84mm Carl Gustav antitank weapons, 111 106mm M40 recoilless Rifles, 78 Tow antitank missile launchers on ground mounts and another 72 on M113 APCs , 425 Eryx antitank missiles, 22 ADATS surface to air missile launchers(this is a very good system and I wish the US had bought it.) 96 Javelin manportable SAM launchers and 20 Starburst vehice mounted SAM launchers(they both use the same missile).
The Air Command has 72 F/A-18A/b Hornets in service of which 18 served in the 1991 war, C-130s for transport as well as some martime patrol aircraft.
The Naval Command has 4 1970s era Iroquois class ASW destroyers and 12 City class guided missile frigates(5 on the Pacific and 7 on the Atlantic) and 4 Ex-British Upholder class submarines that are still being refitted. That is it for major naval combatants.

Canada deployed an infantry company as part of a New Zealand infantry battalion to East Timoe in 1999-2000 where these 650 personnel provided valuable support for the international peacekeeping force.
Its forcces are also presnting serving with:

Operation Kinetic Fyr in Macedonia KFOR( NATO Kosovo Force), since 1994.

Operation TOUCAN in East Timor since 1999.

UNDOF(United Nations Disengagement Observation Force), Golan Hieghts Operation, Isreal-Syria, since 1974.
UNDP-CMCC (United Nations Development Program-Cambodian Mineclearing Center), helping to clear mines since 1991
Operation Palladium in Bosnia where Canada has contributed 1200 personnel for NATO's SFOR(standing Force) peacekeeping mission since 1997.
UNFICYP(United Nations Peacekeeping Force-Cyprus) named operation Snowgoose. Canada provided 1 infantry battalion between 1964-1993, but at present are only acting as observers.

[Ilphi]

Thanks tennyson, I look forward to reading about the rest in the series

[Uncle Sid]

Looking at the international engagements, I am reminded of the great experience that the Canadian military has in peacekeeping operations.

On the other hand, I also note that I can see where some in Canada believe that their military is stretched very thin carrying out all of these operations.

[Godeskian]

interesting

and i have a request, it's a joke really, but could you at some point do the Dutch troops

[Laoise]

tennyson, on Apr 26 2003, 12:18 AM, said:

4 Ex-British Upholder class submarines that are still being refitted.

They're probably still leaking! They took one out, but had to get to shore quick when it started leaking -- again. Don't buy used British subs!

I know very little about our military, despite being the daughter of two army brats and having grown up a few blocks from one base and 10 minutes south of another bigger base.

[Jid]

Uncle Sid, on Apr 26 2003, 02:31 AM, said:

On the other hand, I also note that I can see where some in Canada believe that their military is stretched very thin carrying out all of these operations.

I can too. Most people I've talked to are of the opinion there are really only two ground units that are fully operational and fully equipped for warfare: The Princess Patricia Infantry (5 members of which were nominated for US bronze stars for their sniper work in Afghanistan - as well as recording a (somewhat gruesome) world record sniper kill for distance of about 2430 metres (~1.5 miles). ) and the JTF-2 - Canada's Elite Anti-terrorist/spec ops strike force.

Canada's real pride and joy imo, is its Navy ships, whose newest class is one of the most advanced in the world (roughly on par with AEGIS cruisers and the like).

[CJ AEGIS]

Jid, on Apr 26 2003, 04:04 PM, said:

Canada's real pride and joy imo, is its Navy ships, whose newest class is one of the most advanced in the world (roughly on par with AEGIS cruisers and the like).

I’d have to say the Halifax is somewhere in the similar range but below the capability of a Perry FFG. The Iroquois on the other hand is more capable and might be getting into the same range as the Spruance but better at AAW. Just the Iroquois has a whole lot less in the way of VLS, less ASWcapability, and lighter gun armament.

This post has been edited by CJ AEGIS: 06 May 2004 - 06:39 PM

[the 'Hawk]

Loved the analysis, Tennyson. It amuses me that you had to add "not a joke thread" there....

Either way, superb analysis.

[EvilTree]

- CF Operations as of 23 April 2003 -




OP APOLLO
Canada's military contribution to the international campaign against terrorism 1288

Canadian contribution to the International Security Assistance Force
OP ATHENA
Afghanistan 2

UN Assistance Mission in Afghanistan (UNAMA)
OP ACCIUS
Afghanistan 1




NATO Stabilization Force (SFOR)
OP PALLADIUM
Bosnia-Herzegovina 1,227

European Union Mission in FYROM
OP FUSION
Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia 1




UN Disengagement Observer Force (UNDOF)
OP DANACA
Golan Heights 193

UN Forces in Cyprus (UNFICYP)
OP SNOWGOOSE
Cyprus 1

UN Truce Supervision Organization (UNTSO)
OP JADE
Jerusalem 8

Multinational Force and Observers (MFO)
OP CALUMET
Sinai 29




UN Mission in Sierra Leone (UNAMSIL)
OP REPTILE
Sierra Leone 5

UN Organization Mission in the
Democratic Republic of the Congo (MONUC)
OP CROCODILE
Democratic Republic of the Congo 8

United Nations Mission in Ethiopia and Eritrea (UNMEE)
OP ADDITION
Ethiopia and Eritrea 6

International Military Assistance Training Team (IMATT)
OP SCULPTURE
Sierra Leone 7

Office of the Secretary General for West Africa
OP SOLITUDE
Dakar, Senegal 1


Total

2,777

***
Keep in mind that each infantry battalions in Regular Force are kept in various state of readiness. Therefore, right now 3 PPCLI, off the Afghanistan tour last year has the highest state of readiness. But various work up training will put other units slowly back to full combat readiness whenever they are to be ready for a tour.

[tennyson]

Thanks EvilTree, I've got extensive documentation but most of it is in books that will become progresively more obselete and were mostly written by late 2001 at the latest and I haven't had the chance to tally magazine references yet so this helps immensely. After some thinking and looking over the thread I've decided to include Australia and Turkey in my thread posting and I'll throw in the Netherlands for Godeskian. The next one up should be Australia to keep some measure of alphabetical order and I'll have it ready in the next few days.
I was looking through some more sources and aside from various types of patrol craft and fisheries protection vesseals and misc equipment that is it for the Canadian Naval Command.
I personally wouldn't put the Halifax(City) class frigates as Equal to either the US, Japanese or Spanish Aegis vessels but they are very good antisubmarine vessels with decent air defences. Now if the government would only buy helicopters that they can actually support to replace the Sea Kings.

[CJ AEGIS]

Might as well give a very brief rundown of US forces so there is something to compare to.

USN:
Personnel:
Active Duty:
-381,523
- Officers: 54,533
- Enlisted: 322,801

Reserve: 154,366
- Selected Reserves: 86,683
- Individual Ready Reserve: 67,683
Personnel Deployed: 75,554
Ships:
Active: 301 Vessels*
Carriers:
- 7 Deployed
- 2 working up
- 3 Maintenance
- 1 to be Commissioned Summer 03 (Ronald Reagan)
Cruisers:
- 27 (Ticonderoga Class)
Destroyers:
- 39+- Arleigh Burke Destroyers
- 11 Spruance Destroyers
Frigates:
- 30 Perry Class
Boomers:
- 14 Ohios
SSGN
- 4 Ohios to undergo SSGN conversions with 2 underway now
Fast Attack:
- 3 Seawolf Class
- 51 Los Angeles Class
- 1 Sturgeon Class (SSN 683 Parche still around?)
Aircraft:
Operational: 4,000+

*Note this includes noncombatants.

USAF: (Not listing AWACs, support aircraft, ANG, or rotary wing)

Active:

Fighter:
F-15 Eagle: 396
F-15E Strike Eagle: 217
F-16 Fighting Falcon: 735
F/A-22 Raptors: 8(?)
Heavy Bomber:
B-1B Lancer: 72
B-2 Spirit: 21
B-52 Stratofortress: 85
Attack/Strike:
A-10: 143
OA-10: 70
AC-130H: 8
AC-130U: 13
F-117A Nighthawk: 55
Recon:
U-2s: 37

Army:
10 Active Combat Divisions:
1st Cavalry Division
3rd Infantry Division
82nd Airborne Division
101st Airborne Division
2nd Infantry Division
1st Infantry Division
1st Armored Division
4th Infantry Division
10th Mountain Division
25th Infantry Division

To give some idea of size 1st Cav Division is around 16,000 soldiers.

I didn’t cover the Marines and some of this information is a tad dated since I tossed it together quick.

[EvilTree]

You can find many of the facts and stuff on DND page. www.dnd.ca

Maritime Helicopter project debate: http://cdnarmy.ca/ub...ic;f=6;t=000516

The choppers being considered: http://www.sfu.ca/casr/101-ch1482.htm

[CJ AEGIS]

tennyson, on Apr 27 2003, 02:00 AM, said:

I personally wouldn't put the Halifax(City) class frigates as Equal to either the US, Japanese or Spanish Aegis vessels but they are very good antisubmarine vessels with decent air defences.

I'd say about equal to a Perry.

The Halifax is on par with the Perry’s in size but they displace roughly 1,000+ tons more than a long hull Perry. The Perry has a heavier gun armament with a 76 mm compared to a 56 mm. The Perry Class has 36 SM-1MRs to the 26 Sea Sparrows carried by the Halifax. The CIWS and Harpoon armaments of the two vessels are identical. The Perry has 6 torpedo tubes to the 4 of the Halifax. The two ships once the Perrys are all upgraded will have the same air search set and I’m not sure how the other sensor suites match up. The Halifax probably has an edge since they are newer the Perry Class from the start were meant to be a cheap way to get more hulls in the water. The Perry can carry two ASW birds to the one of the Halifax.

All together I would say the Halifax is sort of the equivalent of a long hull Perry but lags behind in some areas with advantages in others.

Question: The Halifax doesn’t have a Prairie Masker system on her? .

[tennyson]

It does't give a specific name but the Naval Institute Guide to Combat Fleets of the World 2000-2001 says that the Halifaxs have a "bubbler noise reduction system" and they are fitted with the Nixie towed acoustic torpedo decoy. Thier air search is roughly identical to a Perry's with SPS-49V5 air-search radar and thier towed sonar array uses the same components as the US SQR-19A TACTASS. also from the same source they are operated at only around 3/4 of what thier wartime complement would be and they only carry about half of the Sea Sparrows that they are capable of carring as well as using an older generation of Harpoon weapon-control system. I think they seem to be efficient ships, although outclassed in a few areas.

[CJ AEGIS]

Quote

Tennyson: It does't give a specific name but the Naval Institute Guide to Combat Fleets of the World 2000-2001 says that the Halifaxs have a "bubbler noise reduction system" and they are fitted with the Nixie towed acoustic torpedo decoy.

My sources had me wondering there since they neglected to mention that when they did mention the Nixie. Strange

Quote

I think they seem to be efficient ships, although outclassed in a few areas.

I’d agree, they are sort of like the Perry in that they are a cheap but still fairly capable attempt to get more hulls in the water. Though I wouldn’t want to be in a Halifax challenging a Perry to a fight especially anything resembling knife fighting ranges.

[tennyson]

I also managed to locate my full catalog of the Canadian Air Command, so here goes,
The Air Command has approximately 14,500 regular personnel, 2600 reserve and 2500 civilian personnel on strength, and has an operating budget of around 2 billion Canadian dollars. They have
87 F/A-18a/b Hornets(apparently attrition wasn't as bad as I thought.) Eighty of these are being upgraded with new radar, radios, identification friend or foe systems and a new stores management system.
32 C-130E/H transport aircraft including some that have been modified as tankers. They are being fitted with GPS.
21 CP-140 Aurora martime patrol aircraft(The airframe of a US P-3 martime patrol aircraft with the avionics of a US S-3 Viking antisubmarine aircraft)
6 CC-115 Buffalo transports that are getting very old by now
4 CT-113 Silver Star trainers(modified 1950s vintage T-33 trainers)
17 CT-114 Tutor training aircraft(includes the national aerobatic team, the Snowbirds)
4 CC-138 Twin Otter transport and search and rescue aircraft
12 CH-113 Laborador helicopters for transport and search and rescue
14 Ch-139 Jet Ranger III training and transport helicopters
98 Ch-146 Griffon tactical transport helicopters operated for the Land Command
4 CT-142 navigation training aircraft
6 CC-144 Challenger transport planes
5 CC-150 Polaris long-range strategic transports
also on lease are
19 CT-155 Hawk(British Hawk Mk115) trainers
24 CT-156 Harvard II trainers

[Kosh]

"Tonight, on Board with Britten, "Johnny and the Moon Dogs" "Toad the Wet Sprocket" and " Nixie towed acoustic torpedo decoy"!!











<"She wouldn't dancw with another, Whoooo!!!!!

[Han]

Very interesting thread Tennyson! How bout a section on China's military strength as well?

[EvilTree]

The Hornets are being upgraded, but it seems that there are also talk of acquiring JSF in the future.

[CJ AEGIS]

EvilTree, on Apr 27 2003, 08:18 PM, said:

The Hornets are being upgraded, but it seems that there are also talk of acquiring JSF in the future.

Did they ever get more air to mud ordnance for the CF-18s to replace the stocks that were used up?