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Gay Star Trek fan series


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#161 BklnScott

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Posted 17 June 2006 - 11:51 PM

Here's an example for you, Chris.  From "The Wire."  (I thought I'd have to watch more of the episode to find something good, but it was right there in the teaser.)

It opens with Garak and Bashir doing a walk-and-talk on the Promenade.  Garak is complaining about one of his business contacts--though he admits they make "magnificent sweaters."   :rolleyes:   He inquires if Bashir was "entertaining one of your lady friends last night?"  Bashir puts his hand on Garak's shoulder, and admits he was reading a novel Garak had given him last night.  He admits he found it dull.  

Garak takes umbrage: "I can't believe I'm having lunch with a man who thinks The Neverending Sacrifice is dull!"  (Ding ding ding--We have a winner!)  :)  

They proceed to bicker over the choice of restaurant.  Bashir: "I suppose the Klingon restaurant is out of the question."  Garak is getting pissed.  Bashir asks, "are you all right?  Your hands are cold and your skin is clammy."  Whereupon they have a public spat, and Garak stalks off.   :whistle:

Act 1 opens up with Bashir *upset* and venting to his best "lady friend," Jadzia.  "It's that damn Cardassian evasiveness of his...  I mean, keeping me guessing about his past is one thing, but when it comes to his health..., I don't know.  Why can't he just tell me what's going on?"

"Sounds like you're taking this personally."

"I suppose I am.  It's just that Garak and I have been having lunch together for over a year now..."

Ah, yes.  "Having lunch."  Do you see it now?

Edited by _ph, 18 June 2006 - 01:03 AM.

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#162 Robert Hewitt Wolfe

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Posted 18 June 2006 - 01:19 AM

View PostChristopher, on Jun 17 2006, 08:01 AM, said:

So yeah, sure, Garak could've been attracted to Bashir, but that doesn't mean that when he called Bashir a friend he didn't mean exactly that.  The fact that they were friends neither proves nor disproves the thesis of sexual attraction between them, because it can be just as true in either case.

The way I wrote him (and I think the way Andy so wonderfully played him), Garak was attracted to Bashir.  He knew that attraction was not going to be returned (or even particularly noticed) and that was okay. He considered Bashir a friend and a protegee.  There's nothing overt, there's no big flags waving or anything.  It's all subtext.  So maybe "clearly" is an overstatement.

How about, "It would not be wrong to interpret Garak as bisexual."

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#163 G1223

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Posted 18 June 2006 - 01:26 AM

Damm I must be gay. I have lunch with a friend every other day. Except I do not have sexual feelings towards him and he shows no such desires towards me.

Or you have a guy who is wanting to understand this guy called Garak and keeps getting lied to.  But hey lets read more into it than might be there because it fits an agenda.
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#164 Mark

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Posted 18 June 2006 - 04:26 AM

View Postgsmonks, on Jun 17 2006, 03:44 PM, said:

View PostMark, on Jun 17 2006, 02:27 PM, said:

Chris:

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I guess my next question is, was this interest one-way or were there indications that Bashir reciprocated it?

Mark: He did meet Garak for lunch everyday...that in itself is a bit unusual. I know I've met certain co-workers for lunch for witty banter in the past, but never to the point of meeting them everyday.

Sorry for the seque, but just thought I'd interject here:

I keep seeing words like "online" and "everyday" misused these days. "On line" is a noun phrase, "online" is an adjective.

You meet for lunch "every day", not "everyday".  The best way to memorise proper usage is something like, "Our meeting for lunch every day is an everyday occurrence."

You're "on-line", but it's "online" for occurrences like "it's an online issue". Saying "you're online" is like saying "you're quickly", which of course makes no sense.

The use of hyphens is another thing. For example:

"It's like something out of a fairy tale," and "She lived a fairy-tale existence." No hyphen in the 1st example, but required in the 2nd.

Thank-you for flying Qantas.

Mark:  :blush:  I know what you're saying is correct, and I do (deep down) know the differences. However stopping to correct my grammar, and the time involved in doing so, isn't always a luxury I can afford. Thanks for the distinctions, however.   :p
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#165 Christopher

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Posted 18 June 2006 - 07:06 AM

ph said:

I'm sure there's plenty of nurture happening in the gay community (and everywhere else), and that explains some things, but we are all pre-disposed to certain behaviors, and even interests, and that explains some things, too. For example, I don't believe that the high concentration of homosexuals in the arts is the result of peer pressure. The proliferation of a haircut is peer pressure. The proliferation of hairdressers is not.

I think people often choose careers based on tradition or class/group expectations.  At least they're more likely to go into professions where they'll be more accepted and have colleagues they can relate to.

My father's theory (and he's been part of the arts/music community most of his life) is that people in the creative arts are more inclined to judge people by their creativity and talent rather than other factors.  Or maybe it's just that creative/imaginative people are more able to open their minds.  So the creative field is probably the one where GLBT people -- and eccentrics in general -- would meet with the least intolerance, so it stands to reason that they'd tend to pursue careers in that area.

I'm not saying there can't be some correlation between orientation and creativity, mind you -- there's still a lot about the brain we haven't discovered yet.  I'm just saying I consider it an open question and don't want to jump to any conclusions.

View PostRobert Hewitt Wolfe, on Jun 18 2006, 02:19 AM, said:

The way I wrote him (and I think the way Andy so wonderfully played him), Garak was attracted to Bashir.  He knew that attraction was not going to be returned (or even particularly noticed) and that was okay. He considered Bashir a friend and a protegee.  There's nothing overt, there's no big flags waving or anything.  It's all subtext.  So maybe "clearly" is an overstatement.

How about, "It would not be wrong to interpret Garak as bisexual."

Okay, that makes sense.  Like I said, I'll have to keep an eye out for that in future viewings.

I guess the next question is, did this play a role in the way Garak's interaction with other male characters was written?  Say, his interactions with Cardassian men from his past?  For instance, that guy from "Profit and Loss" that Garak had an old, unexplained enmity with (and killed at the end) -- could the reasons for their hostility have been rooted in a past personal relationship?

Edited by Christopher, 18 June 2006 - 07:08 AM.

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#166 Delvo

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Posted 18 June 2006 - 08:57 AM

View PostChristopher, on Jun 18 2006, 08:06 AM, said:

I guess the next question is, did this play a role in the way Garak's interaction with other male characters was written?
This is related to what I was about to write myself. He was the same way with everyone that he was with Bashir. One of the important ways to distinguish mere friendliness or even exaggerated politeness from flirting has to be that people flirt with far fewer other people than they are friendly or extra-polite with. It's a deviation from normal behavior. If what would appear to be flirtaceous behavior is someone's personal normal, then it's not really flirting, because nobody flirts with everybody.

#167 Delvo

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Posted 18 June 2006 - 10:17 AM

OK, here's what that scene looks like to someone who's not into finding sexual hints all over the place (not even with opposite-sex pairs).

View Post_ph, on Jun 18 2006, 12:51 AM, said:

It opens with Garak and Bashir doing a walk-and-talk on the Promenade.  Garak is complaining about one of his business contacts--though he admits they make "magnificent sweaters."   :rolleyes:
This is a reminder of Garak's general enthusiasm with which he seemed to have thrown himself into his life aboard the station as a tailor. Aside from the fact that heterosexual men can be interested in stuff like that as well as homosexual ones (even if it's not as likely), his veiled past gives some other reasons why this might be the case for him in particular.

He could, after having been through whatever he's been through, relish a relatively safe existence in which one's biggest worries are actually silly little trifles without high stakes riding on them, and take chances to light-heartedly (sometimes even jokingly) complain about those trifles as reminders of how good he has it now overall. (I tend to do the same thing with my own personal job even though my past stresses are just unemployment and homelessness, nothing as serious his kind of career; to me, having the kind of complaints I and my co-workers could have now is a luxury, so every time I hear them at it or start to describe some mundane harmless complaint I have about work myself, I get a little chuckle out of it on the inside because getting to have such silly "problems" is relaxing.) Homosexuality might make one more likely to choose tailoring as a career, but there has to be some other reason for the cheerfulness with which he accepts problems in that life, and seeing it as a possible psychological reaction to long-term severe stress followed by a chance to de-stress for a change explains both.

Or, it could all be an act. If he's really a planted spy in the present or just still lives and thinks like one anyway, then it could be that nothing is as it seems with him. (Even if he made his homosexuality completely undeniable, that could still be an act too, although I don't know of any way that appearing homosexual would be useful to him.) He could figure that a cover isn't really a cover if you don't throw yourself into it all the way. He could have chosen tailoring for its harmless image and complained about inconveniences to give the impression of someone without more seious things on his mind. If you call the act too over-the-top and flamboyant to be a serious act because going that far makes it look unreal, you could even say that that's his way of telling the important people on the station (the ones who need to know) that there's more to him than that.

So every time I saw Garak carrying on like this, I related it to other info that we do actually know about him that could explain it, and the question "Is this relief at his new stability in life or a part of his cover?" was what went through my mind. And I favor explanations based on factors that are given on-screen, like Garak's covert past, over ones that aren't... especially when they make every scene a reminder of something that I know the authors want me to think about, like Garak's past job(s) and what kind of work he's really up to now. Skipping that explanation for another even weakens that established theme in a way, so it goes against something the writers were trying to do with the character.

View Post_ph, on Jun 18 2006, 12:51 AM, said:

He inquires if Bashir was "entertaining one of your lady friends last night?"  Bashir puts his hand on Garak's shoulder, and admits he was reading a novel Garak had given him last night.  He admits he found it dull.  

Garak takes umbrage: "I can't believe I'm having lunch with a man who thinks The Neverending Sacrifice is dull!"  (Ding ding ding--We have a winner!)  :)
I can't imagine what makes a comment of disbelief at another person's boredness with a recommended book homosexual, or even flirtaceous at all (if the characters had been opposite sexes). That seems like a 40-dot connect-the-dots picture that's missing about 37 or 38 dots.

Do you and your friends not recommend things like books, music, and TV shows to each other, then react with surprize and/or disappointment (possibly expressed as sarcastic exaggerated shock) if the person it was recommended to didn't like it? This seems, to me, as mundane and routine as it could get for completely non-sexual and not-even-potentially-sexual relationships.

View Post_ph, on Jun 18 2006, 12:51 AM, said:

They proceed to bicker over the choice of restaurant.  Bashir: "I suppose the Klingon restaurant is out of the question."
More of the same. It reminds me of an interaction I had with a friend not long ago, actually. I'm beginning to wonder if this idea that perfectly normal friendly interactions must be sexual comes from people who don't know what a normal friendship is like. :( Of course, to try to reverse the camera for a moment, since this is like friendships I've had with so many males and females, maybe that means I'd seem bisexual to you and  you'd think I was dating, having sex, or trying to get a chance to do one of those, with all of them! :o

View Post_ph, on Jun 18 2006, 12:51 AM, said:

Garak is getting pissed.  Bashir asks, "are you all right?  Your hands are cold and your skin is clammy."  Whereupon they have a public spat, and Garak stalks off.   :whistle:
Friends have arguments, keep strange secrets (especially about medical issues), and want to get away from each other at times too.

View Post_ph, on Jun 18 2006, 12:51 AM, said:

Act 1 opens up with Bashir *upset* and venting to his best "lady friend," Jadzia.  "It's that damn Cardassian evasiveness of his...  I mean, keeping me guessing about his past is one thing, but when it comes to his health..., I don't know.  Why can't he just tell me what's going on?"
OK, now we're finally getting somewhere. This does sound like something half of a couple might say about the other half... IF the subject were something else, especially something more trivial. But it isn't, so close, but no cigar... this subject just happens to be something important that Garak seems to be working against his own best interests in, and it's Julian's profession that he's being blocked from carrying out, while seeing that there obviously is a problem has triggered his "caring about the patients" reaction. A patient trying not to be a patient is frustrating, and Garak being self-destructive defies rational explanation. This reaction is all perfectly rational and consistent with Julian's other personality traits. When what's really there in the show covers everything you need to explain a scene, there's no need to reach outside the show for explanations the show didn't really offer; that's only necessary when you're shown something that CAN'T be explained using what else is in the show.

View Post_ph, on Jun 18 2006, 12:51 AM, said:

"Sounds like you're taking this personally."

"I suppose I am.  It's just that Garak and I have been having lunch together for over a year now..."
If I knew a friend had a problem I was uniquely qualified to help with, and that person wouldn't let me for no apparent reason, I'd look back and be annoyed, too.

View Post_ph, on Jun 18 2006, 12:51 AM, said:

Ah, yes. "Having lunch." Do you see it now?
Coded messages amount to nothing if there's nothing else to really indicate that a code is being used at all and give us a real method to decode them.

* * *

I can see how the idea of a homosexual relationship, or Garak's non-mutual homosexual attraction, can be made to fit because the show didn't exclude it, but the show didn't really indicate it either; it has to be brought in completely from the outside. All they did was leave room for imaginative fans to use their own imaginations.

#168 Christopher

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Posted 18 June 2006 - 10:59 AM

View PostDelvo, on Jun 18 2006, 11:17 AM, said:

I can see how the idea of a homosexual relationship, or Garak's non-mutual homosexual attraction, can be made to fit because the show didn't exclude it, but the show didn't really indicate it either; it has to be brought in completely from the outside. All they did was leave room for imaginative fans to use their own imaginations.

Except that RHW just told us that he wrote Garak with the assumption that he was sexually attracted to Bashir, and Andrew Robinson has said that he chose to play Garak with a homosexual subtext.  So it's not something brought in completely from outside.  It's something that the creators of the character consciously encoded into his scenes and performance, but left ambiguous enough to be interpreted either way.

Which is the way things like this are often done -- leaving it ambiguous is a way of giving everyone what they want.  Viewers who want to see gay subtext can see it and be happy, while viewers who would be uncomfortable with it can assume it isn't there and be happy.  And those of us in the middle can either see the ambiguity and be okay with it either way (or, like me, be totally blind to the subtext until someone points it out).  It was the same with Xena and Gabrielle; that subtext did get a lot more overt as the series progressed, but they avoided resolving the question one way or the other.
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#169 BklnScott

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 08:03 AM

View PostDelvo, on Jun 18 2006, 11:17 AM, said:

He could, after having been through whatever he's been through, relish a relatively safe existence in which one's biggest worries are actually silly little trifles without high stakes riding on them, and take chances to light-heartedly (sometimes even jokingly) complain about those trifles as reminders of how good he has it now overall.

OK, but that completely contradicts everything we know about his situation and his feelings about it.  He was exiled there after the end of the Occupation.  He expressed hatred of his status quo many times -- One time, he even blew up his own shop.  

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When what's really there in the show covers everything you need to explain a scene, there's no need to reach outside the show for explanations the show didn't really offer; that's only necessary when you're shown something that CAN'T be explained using what else is in the show.

As others--including one of the staff writers--have noted, we're discussing subtext.  It's entirely legitimate for you to interpret Garak as heterosexual, and his interest in Bashir as entirely platonic.  

But to do so ignores the subtext actively cultivated by the writers and actors over the course of 7 years.  

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I can see how the idea of a homosexual relationship, or Garak's non-mutual homosexual attraction, can be made to fit because the show didn't exclude it, but the show didn't really indicate it either; it has to be brought in completely from the outside.

That's flat out wrong.  Subtext is not "meta-text."

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#170 enTranced

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 08:42 AM

View Posttennyson, on Jun 17 2006, 06:06 AM, said:

Hey I missed it through the entire 7 year run of the series until told so back at the old Slipstream. It can happen.

It happened to me to.  :blush:

If RHW says it's so maybe it's worth another trip through Deep Space Nine to try to pick up these hints. Not that it is any great burden since I love the show so much. :D

But I just never got that vibe from Garek.  :angel:

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#171 enTranced

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 09:26 AM

View PostChristopher, on Jun 18 2006, 01:36 AM, said:

^^Yeah, but... Nikki deBoer!!! :love:  :love:  :love:

Gotta go with my man Christopher on this one.

Nikki deBoer or a guy?

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Edited by enTranced, 19 June 2006 - 09:27 AM.

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#172 Anarch

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 10:59 AM

View PostCardie, on Jun 17 2006, 04:42 PM, said:

That I ordered a corned beef sandwich on white bread with mayo was treated almost as sacrilege. ;)

And they were right.  WTF is wrong with you??  :eek4:

#173 Anarch

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 11:00 AM

View PostDelvo, on Jun 18 2006, 01:57 PM, said:

If what would appear to be flirtaceous behavior is someone's personal normal, then it's not really flirting, because nobody flirts with everybody.

OMFG, how wrong you are...

ETA:  Heh, stupid non-multiquoteness.  I sound like a broken record -- anyone wanna lay down mad beats over me? :D

Edited by Anarch, 19 June 2006 - 11:01 AM.


#174 BklnScott

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 11:11 AM

edited to fix quotes...  :)  

entranced said:

Gotta go with my man Christopher on this one.

Nikki deBoer or a guy?

[Buffy] Does the word DUH mean anything to you? [/Buffy]

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Nah... It was a big, ol' cop-out that pissed me off no end.  They *should* have given Terry Farrell the raise she wanted, but if they had to recast, they absolutely should have changed genders, which would've put an exciting twist on every single relationship Dax had, especially with Worf.  (It also would've been a nice bookend on the character, since Dax was newly female when the series began.)

Edited by ScottEVill, 19 June 2006 - 11:39 AM.

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#175 Christopher

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 11:29 AM

^^Err, that's nice, but what's it got to do with corned beef on white with mayo?
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#176 Anarch

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 11:32 AM

View PostChristopher, on Jun 19 2006, 04:29 PM, said:

^^Err, that's nice, but what's it got to do with corned beef on white with mayo?

^^ It's a big ol' cop-out that pissed me off no end?  :angel:

#177 BklnScott

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 11:40 AM

View PostenTranced, on Jun 19 2006, 10:26 AM, said:

View PostChristopher, on Jun 18 2006, 01:36 AM, said:

^^Yeah, but... Nikki deBoer!!! :love:  :love:  :love:

Gotta go with my man Christopher on this one.

Nikki deBoer or a guy?

[Buffy] Does the word DUH mean anything to you? [/Buffy]

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View PostChristopher, on Jun 19 2006, 12:29 PM, said:

^^Err, that's nice, but what's it got to do with corned beef on white with mayo?

oops--clicked the wrong quote box there.

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#178 Cardie

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 12:06 PM

View PostAnarch, on Jun 19 2006, 11:59 AM, said:

View PostCardie, on Jun 17 2006, 04:42 PM, said:

That I ordered a corned beef sandwich on white bread with mayo was treated almost as sacrilege. ;)

And they were right.  WTF is wrong with you??  :eek4:

I was raised on white bread and mayo on all my sandwiches.  My mom had goyische tastes, what can I say?  I am now careful always to order corned beef on rye bread with mustard in restaurants and to enjoy corned beef on bagels or white bread and mayo at home.  :devil:

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#179 Anarch

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 12:17 PM

View PostCardie, on Jun 19 2006, 05:06 PM, said:

I was raised on white bread and mayo on all my sandwiches.  My mom had goyische tastes, what can I say?

Dude, I'm as goy as they come and even I know that's wrong.

["Goy", Josh.  "Goy".  Calm down.]

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I am now careful always to order corned beef on rye bread with mustard in restaurants...

Excellent...

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and to enjoy corned beef on bagels or white bread and mayo at home.  :devil:

:blink:

Corned beef... on bagels??

:blink:

They're totally gonna kick your ass outta Jewdom for that one, Cardie, and they're gonna be right to do it...   :eek4:

#180 Anarch

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 12:18 PM

...although I should confess that one of my favorite lazy Sunday snacks is a nice toasty bagel topped with cream cheese...

...and ham.  :devil:




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