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American Soldiers In Iraq Trading M4 For Ak-47


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#1 MuseZack

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Posted 24 August 2003 - 01:29 PM

http://story.news.ya...d=540&ncid=1480

Mikhail Kalashnikov would be proud.  Eugene Stoner, on the other hand....
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#2 Rov Judicata

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Posted 24 August 2003 - 01:42 PM

Edited title to remove extra 's'.

Anyway, this is good news. Each rifle has its own uses, and our troops should have every advantage.

It remains most disturbing that we're relying on external sources for supplies, however... :look:
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#3 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 24 August 2003 - 02:18 PM

You know I bet there are an awful lot of people kicking themselves for not keeping around the large amount of M14s we had and some stocked ammunition for them.  In a state where it could be rapidly tapped into and sent to a potential front.  Hopefully this whole situation will be a wakeup call that NATO 5.56mm just is not up to the task and should be replaced by a 7.76 mm that isnít based off the Mattel toy.

On another ranting note the armored divisions need something other than rifles or carbines. They are obviously poorly suited for storage and use for their normal operating environment.  Not exactly a good thing if you are hanging up on things or tripping over your weapon all the time.  What they need is a good solid SMG that they can use in close quarters but still has some reach out and touch someone capability.  With the often reported dismal performance of the NATO 5.56 rounds and the failure of the 9mm M9 to live up to expectations Iíd steer away from either round.
    
The ideas of arming our troops with 9mm MP-5s and expecting them to standup to AK-47 totting opponents fails to appeal to me.  I have serious doubts about the stopping power of the 9mm round when you hear some of the stories about the M9.  The MP-5 might be fine for house clearing and counter terrorism work but I donít think it has what it takes to stand up to rifles in an urban environment.  Iíd still push for the adoption of the P90 in an altered form to eliminate the bugs that it has.  Then come up with a means to get around that proprietary ammunition that Jon likes to remind me of. ;)  The other option is to try to design an all new submachine gun with a bullpup design and try to grab the best ideas from here and there to get a gone superior to either the MP-5 or P90.    

Quote

Staff Sgt. Michael Perez, a tanker, said he would take anything over his standard issue 9mm pistol when he's out of his tank.
cough!!M1911cough!!

Edited by CJ AEGIS, 24 August 2003 - 02:18 PM.

"History has proven too often and too recently that the nation which relaxes its defenses invites attack."
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#4 Enmar

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Posted 24 August 2003 - 02:22 PM

You know, it's all cool and funny until they get into a battle and one of the rifles get jammed. They were not trained in using them and this is exactly what training is for.

Quote

A four-man tank crew is issued two M4 assault rifles and four 9mm pistols, relying mostly on the tank's firepower for protection.

But the whole point is that when they use the rifles they probably can't use that tank for protection anymore. What is the logic behind this? :blink:

Quote

But now they are engaged in guerrilla warfare, patrolling narrow roads and goat trails where tanks are less effective. Troops often find themselves dismounting to patrol in smaller vehicles, making rifles essential.

And that is, of course, a big surprise, right? Everybody thought they'll be engaged in mighty tank vs. tank battles and then go home?

Quote

Young doesn't carry an AK but has fired one. He's considered banning his troops from carrying AKs, but hasn't yet because "if I take the AK away from some of the soldiers, then they will not have a rifle to carry with them."

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#5 Delvo

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Posted 24 August 2003 - 03:09 PM

OK, gun guys, what do you think of how these guys are equipped...



OK, seriously now... what does "carbine" mean?

Edited by Delvo, 24 August 2003 - 03:12 PM.


#6 jon3831

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Posted 24 August 2003 - 03:25 PM

^ A carbine is a short barrelled, lighter rifle. I don't think there's a definate cut-off on barrel length, but IIRC, it's about 16 or 18 inches. Shorter than 18"=carbine, longer=rifle.

The M4 and the M16 are functionally identical, as they use the same fire control systems, but the primary difference is in the length of the barrel and the stock. The M4 uses a telescoping stock, the M16 fixed. The M4's barrel is something like 16" and the M16's is 24", IIRC.

Here's the FAS writeup (with pictures): http://www.fas.org/m...ys/land/m16.htm

As to the Shockwave... I wouldn't mind riding on that aircraft. ;) ;)

The Colt King Cobra is a .357 Magnum 6-shot revolver. Solid and well made.

The Kimber Custom Defense is a 1911-style firearm. Kimber stopped making them, but here'sthe website for the model. Good firearm by a good company. My next 1911 will probably be a Kimber.

The Ruger Bearcat is a .22 single action revolver. It's a well-made and designed firearm, but in a defense situation? Nope. The Bearcat is better suited for target shooting, varmiting, and plinking.
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#7 Uncle Sid

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Posted 24 August 2003 - 04:21 PM

Heck with all the AK's lying around Iraq, I'd definitely start knocking the extra dirt out of them and issuing them to our troops.  No sense wasting money issuing 5.56 ammo and M16's to people when you have AK's and ammo to burn.  

Although, I wonder about people going full auto with them.  Going full auto with an AK-47, even at relatively close range may well have the effect of the cartoon where the bullets make holes everywhere but on the person you're shooting at.  The AK-47 on full auto is the ultimate spray and pray weapon, with emphasis on pray.  Granted one hit will probably hurt a lot, but you've got to get one of those first.
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#8 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 24 August 2003 - 07:37 PM

Someone above must be listening to the rants about 5.56mm ammo. This got me reading up a little bit more on the M8 lightweight rifle that looks like it might replace the M4/M16.    If you want to hear one logical step, the OICW will not be going into active service.  Apparently the new grenade launcher to replace the M203 will be the M25 and consist of a 25mm grenade.  That grenade launcher will use the same sensor fusing technology as the OICW but weight in at 12 lbs for the entire weapon.  Getting back on point one of the nifty features for the new M8 will be that with a few parts changes(apparently the parts will come right through with new rifles) any M8 will be capable of firing 7.62 mm rounds(Noted by Jon this will be 7.62x39 AK ammo  not NATO 7.62x45).  

Quote

Enmar: You know, it's all cool and funny until they get into a battle and one of the rifles get jammed. They were not trained in using them and this is exactly what training is for.

Well the one thing on their side there is weapons donít get much more idiot proof than a Kalashnikov.  I would be more concerned about someone expecting to shoot them like a M4/M16 in terms of accuracy and hen utterly missing the targets.  

Quote

Uncle Sid: Although, I wonder about people going full auto with them.

It does seem to imply in the article they are just tripping the trigger and spraying with them.  If you switched the rifle to full automatic and then used proper discipline to fire in short bursts you should be ok.  Assuming you donít extend the bursts too long.  

To add to what Jon said carbines were originally for use by mounted troops.  The shorter weapon is easier to handle from horseback.

Edited by CJ AEGIS, 24 August 2003 - 07:58 PM.

"History has proven too often and too recently that the nation which relaxes its defenses invites attack."
        -Fleet Admiral Nimitz
"Their sailors say they should have flight pay and sub pay both -- they're in the air half the time, under the water the other half""
        - Ernie Pyle: Aboard a DE

#9 tennyson

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Posted 24 August 2003 - 11:56 PM

CJ isn't NATO standard 7.62mm X 51 or at least I've always thought it was.
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#10 jon3831

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Posted 25 August 2003 - 12:14 AM

^Yeah.

The Iraqi AKs use 7.62x39mm, IIRC

(There's about 5 different AK calibers, if memory serves, but 7.62x39 is one of the most common)
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#11 D'Monix

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Posted 25 August 2003 - 01:04 AM

Quote

This got me reading up a little bit more on the M8 lightweight rifle that looks like it might replace the M4/M16.

The M8 is itself a modified version of the H&K G36 weapon, the XM-8 componant of the OICW is a even more heavily modified version of the G36.

That's good, the G36 and it's family are good weapons in and of themselves, the G36K or G36C would also make good vehicle crew weapons.

At one point, before the project was scrapped, testing was underway for the H&K CAWS to become the new close-quarters weapon as a full-auto assault shotgun, however problems with it's ammunition (specially made by Olin-Winchester) and rather hefty weight of 9.5lbs caused it never to be adopted.

D'

#12 D'Monix

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Posted 25 August 2003 - 01:18 AM

jon3831, on Aug 25 2003, 05:14 AM, said:

^Yeah.

The Iraqi AKs use 7.62x39mm, IIRC

(There's about 5 different AK calibers, if memory serves, but 7.62x39 is one of the most common)
The AK-47, AKM, RPK machinegun, & RPD machinegun all use 7.62x39mm ammunition.

the DP machinegun, SGM machinegun and Pecheneg machineguns all use 7.62x54mm ammunition as does the SVD and SVU series sniper rifles, as well as the SV-98 Rifle.

D'

#13 tennyson

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Posted 25 August 2003 - 04:18 AM

What's that wierd only still used by it calibre used by the PK general purpose machine gun? I know it is a 7.62mm but from what I remember it was incompatible with everything else.
"Only an idiot would fight a war on two fronts. Only the heir to the throne of the Kingdom of Idiots would fight a war on twelve fronts."

— Londo, "Ceremonies of Light and Dark" Babylon-5


#14 D'Monix

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Posted 25 August 2003 - 04:44 AM

From the sources I've seen the PK GPMG also uses 7.62x54mm ammo, looks like i missed one at least.

;)


I know the AK-74 and it's machinegun variants use 5.45mm ammunition, though

#15 emsparks

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Posted 25 August 2003 - 11:09 AM

CJ AEGIS, on Aug 24 2003, 07:18 PM, said:

The other option is to try to design an all new submachine gun with a bullpup design and try to grab the best ideas from here and there to get a gone superior to either the MP-5 or P90.   
As Tanker SMGs go how about the old M3 grease gun, 45 cal version.
Try not to laugh too loud.....

What was the round for the old German mp44?

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#16 D'Monix

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Posted 25 August 2003 - 03:04 PM

emsparks, on Aug 25 2003, 04:09 PM, said:

CJ AEGIS, on Aug 24 2003, 07:18 PM, said:

The other option is to try to design an all new submachine gun with a bullpup design and try to grab the best ideas from here and there to get a gone superior to either the MP-5 or P90.† †
As Tanker SMGs go how about the old M3 grease gun, 45 cal version.
Try not to laugh too loud.....

What was the round for the old German mp44?

Sparky::
7.92x33mm

#17 emsparks

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Posted 25 August 2003 - 03:45 PM

D'Monix, on Aug 25 2003, 08:04 PM, said:

7.92x33mm
It's the Germans faults.

The M60 Machine Gun mostly lifted from the MG42.
The Shape of the current Kevlar helmet, a direct lift from the Stahelm.
The origination of the assault rifle concept, the MP44.

The 7.92x33mm cartage bears some serious looking into.
A bit smaller then the 9mm parabelum, in diameter, but
more aerodynamically shaped, and more powder in a necked
down brass.

Makes you wonder what kind of weapon we would have, if they
had increased the powder charge, and reshaped the round for
the M1 / M2 carbine. A folding stock M2 with a better round
might have been one hell of a gun.

In 1967, I had trained on an M14, but odd as it might seem my
duty weapon, stateside, was a M1 carbine. Like most GI's of
that era I feared the M16 because of the reports we where
getting about it over the grunt grapevine.

So what did we do, we gave the job, to designer a new infantry
weapon to an airplane designer. And we still an't got it right.

Sparky::

Edited by emsparks, 25 August 2003 - 03:57 PM.

Sparky::

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#18 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 25 August 2003 - 04:21 PM

Quote

Dí: I know the AK-74 and it's machinegun variants use 5.45mm ammunition, though.

IIRC the Russians have a lot of complaints about the 5.45 mm ammunition in regards to the stopping power of the rounds.  

Quote

Tennyson: CJ isn't NATO standard 7.62mm X 51 or at least I've always thought it was.

:blink:  Ayep...  That was just my brain getting the NATO 5.56 and 7.62 all convoluted.  I know there is a reason why I prefer rounds larger than 20 mmÖ. ;)


Quote

Dí: the XM-8 componant of the OICW is an even more heavily modified version of the G36.

It makes for one ugly bulky weapon though once you slap on all the extra toys of the OICW.  

Quote

Sparky: As Tanker SMGs go how about the old M3 grease gun, 45 cal version.

Speaking of ugly weaponsÖ  You were just trying to make someone twitch? ;) I have to give you credit for picking a fairly robust and simple weapon.  You canít beat the .45 rounds for stopping power.  The effective range of those critters though isnít much if any further than a M9.  I figure if you are going to find/make a SMG for Tankers you want something that has a little more reach.

I would want out to at least 200 meters or further if possible.  The P90 hits the 200 meter mark and would probably be ok for most engagements.  The ideal situation would be to push the range out as close to the 300 meter effective range of the AK as possible.
"History has proven too often and too recently that the nation which relaxes its defenses invites attack."
        -Fleet Admiral Nimitz
"Their sailors say they should have flight pay and sub pay both -- they're in the air half the time, under the water the other half""
        - Ernie Pyle: Aboard a DE

#19 EvilTree

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 10:21 AM

Not another 5.56 vs. 7.62 debate again. *groan*
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#20 CJ AEGIS

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 10:49 AM

EvilTree, on Aug 26 2003, 03:21 PM, said:

Not another 5.56 vs. 7.62 debate again. *groan*
It will never end ET. ;)
"History has proven too often and too recently that the nation which relaxes its defenses invites attack."
        -Fleet Admiral Nimitz
"Their sailors say they should have flight pay and sub pay both -- they're in the air half the time, under the water the other half""
        - Ernie Pyle: Aboard a DE


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